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I think you have made it out of the recovery phase and hit limbo. Without making this a long post, you may be able to get something from this thread I made a while ago that was almost a year after DDay for me:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/649198/marriage-without-reconciliation/

Find enjoyment where you can, while you can. Sending strength.

I think you have made it out of the recovery phase and hit limbo. Without making this a long post, you may be able to get something from this thread I made a while ago that was almost a year after DDay for me:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/649198/marriage-without-reconciliation/

Find enjoyment where you can, while you can. Sending strength.

I think that's a fair assessment.

I feel like the progress I'm witnessing in my WW will ultimately get her where I need her to go--I feel fairly optimistic. But if it doesn't, would I be willing to live with the established parameters I now have?

That's a hard question for me to answer right now.

I want to give an update. I've been incredibly busy with work and I haven't been able to write--which is frustrating as I haven't had another outlet for my thoughts.

First, I'll start with the good.

My WW and I are still having emotional chats intermittently, though now it's largely about our respective IC sessions. The other night we had an interesting exchange. Since DDay, the question of my "safety" in our future relationship and my comfort in feeling she would not have another affair has come up several times in both our conversations and in MC. My WW's answer has always been some form of: "This has been the most painful experience of my life and I can't imagine ever going through this again."

It was one of those things I'd listen to, but never comment on. To me, it was just another example of her focused on herself and lacking empathy for me.

However, the topic came up again and for the first time she responded differently, essentially saying that she saw the pain she inflicted on me and could never do that to me again because of how much she loves me. There's still some of her own shame mixed in as reasoning as well, but I took it as progress. It's probably the first clear sign--at least for me--that she is capable of remorse.

Now to the less good.

My WW has been wonderful these passed few weeks--really wonderful--with one minor exception that I'll get into in a moment. My response to her being wonderful has surprised me a bit. I thought I'd be thrilled that we have this great relationship now: open communication, fun sex all the time, and early signs of remorse from her. Seemingly, it's all exactly what I wanted.

But I'm still often unhappy. And I know I'm riding the wave and my happiness will flutter for a longtime now, but I'm trying to examine it to better understand what is going on.

Did a part of me want her to fail in this limbo phase? If so, I'm not sure why. I thought that I wanted to see her change so we can build a happy relationship for the children--but if so, why aren't I doing cartwheels 'cross the floor now? What's missing?

And that leads to the minor exception as it's the thing I've been disappointed in over the last few weeks.

While I was in Italy, I sent my WW a series of emotionally raw emails, largely focused on my sexual kinks. She engaged fairly superficially with them and has been distant (imo) anytime the topic has been broached--which aligns exactly with how she's handled conversations about sex throughout our marriage.

Her lack of intellectual curiosity and probing does bother me a bit. She claims she's open to trying new things--as long as it does not involve another man/fantasizing about another man--but it doesn't seem like she's committed to that at all and she largely shuts down in our talks.

It's all left me feeling a bit frustrated. I have no desire to sort through my kinks with random women online again--or even with porn--but I now feel uncomfortable having these talks with my WW. I don't want to feel like I'm pushing something on her. It's possible we're just not sexually compatible.

And that brings me to my point--none of this was a deal breaker our entire marriage. I was annoyed and hurt at times, but I dealt with it openly to manage the issue. We have a life and kids together, so her eagerness to participate in certain sexual kinks just isn't my top priority.

But now it feels especially bad. She took my ultimate sexual fantasy (cuckolding), ignored it our entire relationship, and then went out and did it behind my back. And the result is that even more-so than before, she's closed off to it. Essentially, she was able to explore her sexual fantasies without me, despite me pleading for years for her to open up to me, and as a result me exploring my sexual fantasies with her are off the table.

It's a dynamic that I'm not sure I can live with. My fantasies aren't going away, so I'm going to need some outlet for them. I just haven't figured out how best to tackle it.

Dr., I know this feeling all too well.

There are things (sexually) that my WW and I don’t do anymore as a result of her A. We too discussed fantasies and used them in our sex life but after dday, I just can’t bring myself to engage in these fantasies anymore, for obvious reasons.

This is the "gift" that keeps on giving. I felt/feel similar to you. My WW got to make this fantasy real; just without me. It ain’t fair, but none of this is. Unfortunately, there really isn’t any way to level the playing field. I won’t cheat, and I suspect you wouldn’t either. All we have is our honour and integrity!

Why do all of your kinks and fantasies need to be indulged or have an outlet? Is cuckholding the only fantasy that's off the table?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:01 PM, Monday, August 1st]

She is not into your cuckhold fantasy. She wanted to fuck another guy, but she did not want you to watch. And never will. Infidelity is not a kink.

Why is that so hard for you to get?. Do you seriously believe that she owes you your kink?.

She doesn't and there is no need to start another 50 page thread to discuss it.

And yes you wanted her to fail. It's so obvious.

Strange love. That's about right.

[This message edited by 66charger at 3:29 AM, Tuesday, August 2nd]

I'll be honest, to me anyway, you should fixate more on the marriage part and tie it a lot less to your "kink". So much of what I've read puts that "need" into the foundation of rebuilding your marriage, and quite frankly, it shouldn't be. Inserting it again, before you're even out of limbo is just, quite simply, shooting yourself in the foot.
"Kinks" don't NEED an outlet, and if they are so tightly entwined with who you are and HAVE to have an outlet, you may wish to discuss how to deal with that separately from dealing with your wife/marriage.
And yes, clearly the sex part of your marriage wasn't up to snuff, so to speak, for years, but you should concern yourself with the TWO of you and your sexual issues before even talking about bringing in a 3rd person. She obviously doesn't want that, so work on the rest, who knows maybe down the line she will, and of so, good on ya.
I read it as your kink, though it seems closer to a fetish at this point, is an overriding factor in much of this going forward, and no better way to put the final nail in that coffin than by pushing it at this point, or even discussing it.

I'm reminded of an old saying: The masochist pleads "Hurt me!!", the sadist smiles and says, "No, I won't!"

She is not into your cuckhold fantasy. She wanted to fuck another guy, but she did not want you to watch. And never will.

In NOT letting you be a part of her plan, she actually cuckolded you! There... fantasy complete! Now what will you do?

[This message edited by toota at 8:44 PM, Tuesday, August 2nd]

I remember years ago a story were the BW lived in a multimillion dollar home, drove the finest cars kids went to elite private school and she was hung up on her WH taking OW to Reno...Reno??? Really??.

In my own story, I traveled a great deal during her affair our main communication was phone calls and I got hung up on if this other guy was around during any of those phone calls, and what was said after we hung up.

We all have different points of contention, I dont believe anyone has the right to tell someone else what they need to get over and move on from.

I'm not sure its the actual act, I believe that its how important DR feels this was to him and how she blew him off and continues to blow him off on something that is important to him. We don't have a right to dictate what that is for him.

Why aren't you doing cartwheels? Because, man,your wife cheated. Even if she's doing everything right,now,she still cheated. That's going to cause you pain for a long time.

As for your kink? You say you're having a lot of sex. She's into it. She's willing to do anything, except involve a third person, in any form.

And you are upset that she won't indulge your cuckold fantasy. That's your only complaint about your sex life.

My advice? Get over it. Seriously. Not every kink needs to be indulged. It's called being a mature adult, and understanding that your spouse doesn't owe it to you to help you live out your every fantasy.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:27 AM, Wednesday, August 3rd]

I think there are a couple of things happening at once for you here.

1. The affair put a great big void in your life that you don’t know what to do with. You keep looking to her to fill it back up by offering proof of something. The target changes as you realize that next thing isn’t going to miraculously fix it.

2. Either you believe the cuckhold thing would be a grand gesture that will show you she is putting you completely first, or you see an opening to manipulate her into doing what you want. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, especially a BS, so I assume it’s the first thing. But you need to understand it’s a mirage. The minute you had it, it’s not going to fix anything.

And, I can honestly say having had the affair, confessed and all that ensued, I believe exactly what your wife is saying to be true- it’s been the most painful experiences of my entire life. Yes, part of that is seeing what it did to my husband. True change happens when you realize you aren’t who you want to be and that has led you to the worst hell of your life. That is actually a bigger motivator than anything. You want her to have that reckoning.

If anything the fact she is not entertaining it means she is not people pleasing right now. I think it’s 100 percent normal you are not feeling satisfied in this relationship right now. But know the only real cure is to keep doing the work and as time passes, that void will go away regardless of what happens in your marriage.

Your wife has also been in a fragile place and she is absolutely right not to indulge in this fantasy of bringing in outside people. You are chasing grand gestures and probably dopamine. While it’s normal to feel that way, what you are fixated on is not what is right for two healing people. Bringing in more partners relies on a solid basis of trust and love, otherwise understand that you would be setting fire to a house that is already barely standing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:32 AM, Wednesday, August 3rd]

Doc,

Prior to her A your WW purposely withheld sex from you due to her deep resentments and her considering you essentially an incompetent (bad mouthing of you).

Essentially, immediately after D day, all of that changed. Your WW now loves to have sex with you. Why? What has changed in her mind that she goes from the pre A mindset of offering little to no sex, and when sex did happen it was offered begrudgingly and in a belittling manner to you, to post A sex where she loves having sex with you, thoroughly enjoying it herself?

A. Play Acting Mode in order to appease you:
1. Fear of losing you, the M, her family?
2. Desire for the safety the M snd family provides?
3. Doesn’t want to be a single mom?
4. Fear of her loss of reputation if D occurs and the reason gets out?

B. The Real deal:
1. Essentially immediately after Dday WW now suddenly remembers you’re the love of her life so sex is now great?
2. She has learned that her prior resentments snd attitude towards you were all wrong so sex can immediately go from crap pre A to great now?

Or, something else I’m missing?

My point is that your WWs sexual desire for you went from 0 mph pre A to 100 mph immediately post A. Strange? Of course, it could be ascribed to HB, but I don’t get that sense.

Or, could it be that she’s manipulating you, preying upon what you’ve self described as the most significant reason you are weighing to R or not? A great sex life.

If you told your WW that the most significant reason you are weighing R or not is whether she would stand on her head every night for five minutes, do you think she would have started to stand on her head every night for five minutes right after D day?

Maybe all of this doesn’t matter because it’s what you’re seeing in the present that counts, i.e her actions.

However, logic dictates that deep seated resentments and diminution of one’s spouse over many, many years, would not suddenly go away after a handful of IC and MC sessions. Theoretically, this should take many, many years of therapy to sort out.

So, is your WWs new found positive attitude towards sex with you this illogical sudden shift in her mindset about you, a fake it until you make it mindset, or purely a manipulation of you?

Suppose your wife had a rape fantasy you never acted on in the marriage.

Suppose your wife was then literally the victim of a criminal rape by a stranger.

Suppose you observed how devastated your wife was by the actual rape, how damaged she was as a result.

Suppose, strangely in my view, this actual rape did not quell her rape fantasy and she asked you to be the fantasy rapist.

Would you be comfortable acting as her fantasy rapist knowing what damage the actual rape had done to her?

I wouldn't. I would wish she would abandon the rape fantasy or at least leave me out of it. I couldn't simulate for my wife the actual thing that had so deeply hurt her.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 7:24 PM, Thursday, August 4th]

I feel like you need a much healthier, more adult understanding of the difference between fantasy/kink and reality. Your wife’s affair had and has zero to do with your cuckold fantasy. Fantasy is not reality. That’s why you can have a cuckold *fantasy* but feel completely betrayed when she *actually* cuckolded you. She wasn’t fulfilling your fantasy behind your back. She was having an affair.

From what you’ve said, your sex life right now is fun, frequent, and fulfilling; it just doesn’t meet your kinks/fantasies. But your wife does not owe you your sexual fantasies, especially if they involve her having sex with someone else when she doesn’t want to. Using her wrongdoing to pressure her into meeting sexual fantasies that she isn’t comfortable with is not going to heal you, her, or help your marriage. Also, bringing other sex partners into your marriage when it’s in such a fragile state seems like a terrible idea regardless.

This:

Why do all of your kinks and fantasies need to be indulged or have an outlet?

and this:

Why is that so hard for you to get?. Do you seriously believe that she owes you your kink?.

You have to accept your partner in marriage is not interested in this fetish. End of story. Now it's up to you can you live sexually fulfilled life with that or not. As quoted above, not every single sexual interest or fetish has to be indulged, and by no means does your spouse HAVE to indulge in them. And no not everything "needs an outlet". Time for a choice, your fetish or your spouse? Why can't you accept she wants no part of your fetish?

For weeks (months maybe??) I've seen this thread (and previously the mega thread on JFO) get bumped to the top as it's now approaching 50 pages (in addition to the 50 or so pages from JFO) so 100 pages of how many comments I don't know...but something that sticks out to me about what you chose as the title of "intense and highly deceptive" I have to ask, have you read other threads here? People's signatures of their story? There are BS here who's WH have fathered children with their AP, serial cheaters, waywards who cheat with prostitutes, waywards who have have affairs lasting YEARS, the list goes on...meanwhile here the main discussion point is this cuckhold fetish.

You've said that you acted out this fetish,with women online,with your wife's "permission, " because she wasn't interested in really having sex with you.

Now she is very much into sex with you..yet you are upset that she isn't into this fetish,and you are talking about how you are going to get your fix,so to speak. Which indicates you would have had these encounters online,whether your wife was into having sex with you or not,if she wasn't into this kink. That sheds a whole new light on many things.

I've been Team DrS. Even when you thought I was obnoxious about how necessary it was to contact the OBS. I'm still Team DrS. So I will tell you..she isn't into it. It's healthy considering where your marriage is. She is right. You,sir, are wrong. If your fetish is so important to you,that you are going to either somehow get her to go along with it,either herself or convince her to be ok with you doing it online again,then divorce would be the best option for all of you.

You had a cuckold fantasy. Your W cuckolded you.

You know the reality is immensely worse than the fantasy, and yet you continue to want it. Wanting to continue the fantasy seems like playing with real emotional fire that you know burns very painfully. This just does not compute for me.

Given the reasons that you're eligible to post on SI, what are the positive outcomes that you think you'll receive by doing the role-playing you want to do?

*****

Then there's the fact that your W - wisely, IMO - wants no part of this. And if this is truly a need she won't meet, that's reason to pull the plug.

What do you think you will achieve?

Wise old fool nailed it. That was the best analogy and said it all.

I am certainly no therapist but I see a bunch of stuff you’ll need to talk to one about. First of all, your wife was full of rage and resentment for years and you paid the price by her withholding sex and probably affection. She has now run up against reality and is going to lose her very comfortable life if you decide to divorce. You on the other hand had a fantasy that you had talked about to her and to other women but no one seemed to go for it. Now you are full of rage and resentment because she cheated on you without your permission. There’s so much junk in your marriage from a long time ago and this has just piled everything else on it. It reminds me of those cartoons with somebody’s in a junky pick up truck with everything piled high including the sink trying to drive down the highway. Forget having a birds eye view of her and another man. That’s the last thing the two of you need to work out right now. You have to go back and start at the beginning of your marriage and figure out what the heck got her started with her behavior towards you. Then you have to look at why you were comfortable online with other women instead of your wife and why you were willing to be a second-class citizen in your marriage.

I have one semi ridiculous question. How are you going to expect your wife to behave while another man is having sex with her? Is she supposed to lie there like a dummy or is she supposed to act like she’s enjoying it? I don’t see how that is ever going to be something the two of you two can work out. It’s kind of like a woman wanting to be Cinderella. Sometimes fantasies are just that fantasies and you have to let go of them.

Just a question to explore internally (and again, trying to direct this back to what’s going on INSIDE of YOU)…

Could this "kink" be rearing its head right now as a subconscious way to both avoid real vulnerability and to garner some sense of control?

Ie, Many kinks have at their root a way of avoiding deeper/truer intimacy/vulnerability. (This can be confusing on the surface because you FEEL like you are being more vulnerable by sharing it. But what does it actually achieve in reality?). And the control piece is - this happened so how can I reframe it so it’s something I actually WANTED?

This also would consider the aspect that maybe you want her to fail in a reconciliation. That, too, would also alleviate a sense of vulnerability and loss of control in that it would no longer require you to show up authentically.

Both of these aspects seem to be worthy of further exploring with your IC.

ETA: I can also see this “kink” desire as a potential (and likely subconscious) failure trap for your wife. If she agrees, it’s a failure. If she refuses, it’s a failure.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 3:01 AM, Thursday, August 4th]