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I really like your posts truthsetmefree, there is so much more complexity to the situation and to the people involved in it. If DrS is willing to give his wife time to work on herself I don't see how helpful is to hammer down over and over what a lost cause she is using every reported failing as a demonstration that the "right" outcome here is D. She is trying and DrS is willing to let her. Change is hard but if achieved can be rewarding too, for both of them, whether they decide to stay together or part ways.

It's true that there is a villain and a victim to the affair, but I don't think this is necessary true to the general dynamic of the relashionship here and I think DrS is also open to explore that although it's rather too soon now while they are still in limbo.

I think I’m the victim and my wife is the villain—it seems binary. Why do you see it differently?

DrS, to me personally your inclination for debate and conflict is a bit exhausting sometimes laugh but I do admire your desire to go deeper and don't back off from exploring what "can be" rather than what it is right now. I think this will serve you well whichever path you choose in the future.

You get to pop in and go as you please; just imagine the torture of being in my head.

And yes, I’m trying to keep in mind what can be, though when I hit my lows, it’s often hard to see a path to forgiveness.

I hope this break with help you both regroup emotionally. Adn enjoy Italy! I am originally from the Alps there so I'd recommend polenta although I don't know how good a choice that would be with 38 degrees... :)

I love the Alps—both for skiing and hiking. I’m down in Rome now and won’t get further north than Florence this trip. And it’s hot as hell right now—it’s why I’m back at the hotel cooling off for a bit and replying here before I go back out…

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 2:39 PM, Friday, July 15th]

Is your wife trying? Maybe. She goes to IC,but you don't know what happens in those sessions. She goes to MC,and she's reading books. None of that matters if she doesn't use the tools she's being given. And,every day,the behavior continues.

Oh to be clear, she’s using the tools. She’s overwhelmed by them, but she’s using them. Her ability to string positive days together is new to this last month precisely because she is more measured and collected in her talks. It’s when she’s taken off-guard that her old instincts kick in and the tools fall away.

Remorse, and not being defensive, are two of the top 3 things a WS must do in order to be R material. The other, by the way,is NC. I see people here telling you it's ok that she is still unremorseful, and defensive,because this is new to her. It's often said here,that you can not attempt reconciliation with an unremorseful WS. I'm not sure why yours should be the exception.

I have no plans to try to be the exception. It’s do or die right now for my WW.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 2:38 PM, Friday, July 15th]

I see a lot of Captain Rogers wife in your WW DrS.

Can you please share a link?

You can find posts by a specific member by clicking 'Members - Search members' at the top of most SI pages. Find the member - click the profile icon - click 'Recent Posts'.

You can find posts by a specific member by clicking 'Members - Search members' at the top of most SI pages. Find the member - click the profile icon - click 'Recent Posts'.

Thank you!

she is more measured and collected in her talks. It’s when she’s taken off-guard that her old instincts kick in and the tools fall away.

What that says to me,is IMO, she knows how she should respond,and how she should behave,but when caught off guard,her mask slips and she shows her true self. That,for now,those measured responses,are inauthentic.

It’s do or die right now for my WW.

Hopefully she gets out of her own way.

Contrary to what I'm sure she believes, I hope she knocks off the bullshit, does the work,and you are able to have a successful reconciliation. I just dont think you should tolerate one more ounce of disrespect,cruelty, or abuse.

I think I’m the victim and my wife is the villain—it seems binary. Why do you see it differently?

I don’t - I think there is a victim (you) and a villain (her) with regard to the infidelity, badmounting etc.

I was referring to the messed up dynamic of the relationship pre-A where I just don’t think it makes sense to apply labels like victim and villain. There is much more complexity to that problematic dynamic that comes down to both of you, not just her.

But I think it’s probably too soon for you to investigate too much of that right now, it’s all for a different chapter of your recovery together, if that’s going to happen.

What that says to me,is IMO, she knows how she should respond,and how she should behave,but when caught off guard,her mask slips and she shows her true self. That,for now,those measured responses,are inauthentic.

Perhaps. I can’t quite tell if her measured responses are inauthentic—they often seem authentic. When she comes prepared to talk about something, it’s not that it’s a lie, it’s that she has had time to think it through and determine if she’s defensive, etc.—she can evaluate it outside the conversation. But when I dig deeper or catch her off guard, she doesn’t have that opportunity and resorts to instinct over the new tools she’s learning.

I also think she’s frustrated by the fact that I sometimes won’t believe her. And it’s not a choice on my part—it’s a fact. So perhaps she’s telling me the truth and my response is I think she’s lying—she doesn’t know how to maneuver from there and I can tell she’s annoyed by it. But that’s the bed she made for herself and a primary reason for me to want to lean into the lie detector test.

One example is whether she had sex with me or I gave her oral sex on a day she also saw AP. Her answer is that she is 85% sure we had sex on Jan. 5 or 6 (she woke up with AP and had sex with him again in hotel morning of Jan. 5) because she recalls being very sore after we had sex and attributed it to all the sex she had. However, she has no recollection of doing anything with me the other days.

I know I had sex with her on Jan. 19, after she saw him on Jan. 18, but I don’t know for sure the others.

My issue is I don’t believe that is possible—if she saw him at 4 p.m. and then came home and had sex with me a few hours later one of the car meet up days, she would 100% know she did that or 100% know she did not. Her answer that she doesn’t think so screams a lie to me.

Now, that’s not necessarily a deal breaker for me, but it is a prime example of her seemingly still lying to me. So it’s incredibly frustrating.

I was referring to the messed up dynamic of the relationship pre-A where I just don’t think it makes sense to apply labels like victim and villain.

I don’t disagree there, but in my defense, and as I’ve written before, I’d have multiple lengthy sit downs with her every year to talk—I’d talk for 95% of the time and she would largely stare at me blankly. In retrospect, I know of things I could have done differently now, but in the moment, I don’t think it’s reasonable to think I could have done much differently then.

It’s not just her bad behavior in our relationship—I’m fine if you want to split that 50/50–it’s also her zero effort at communicating with me while I tried with her.

But unfortunately due to DrS’ skillful (and likely subconscious) ability to deflect…

What are you referring to? Is there anything specific you feel I’m deflecting with my WW?

Yeah…I paused before even posting that aspect because I knew you would focus in on it. It’s not that you’re a cliche…it’s just that I relate to how your brain works. I also REALLY relate to this statement…

You get to pop in and go as you please; just imagine the torture of being in my head.

Yep. All day, every day.

To answer your question let me first suggest that we look at this as though we were evaluating a piece of art. It says nothing about the artist’s worth itself nor does it necessarily apply to ALL of his work. It’s just this particular situation, k?

When we get close to the internal emotional work you need to do, your defenses go up. You deflect by giving me case scenarios that are not equivalents (in so many ways - though I don’t think you see that.) You also focus (and double down) heavily on your wife - her behavior, her past experiences, her work. You frame it in the context of what you need to see from her…but haven’t yet shifted your main focus/perspective to how you can use this experience to examine your own internal landscape. I think you are doing that in your quiet work - which is why you sometimes come back to what I’ve said to you at a later time. But your initial response is to deflect (and that’s one reason I back off on your threads. It’s not offensive…I just know in that moment to continue to push you is not ultimately beneficial). This is one reason why old patterns of thinking, relating, is so hard to break; it’s when we are emotionally challenged that we revert. (You can also see how this works when it comes to your wife’s behavior when she’s in emotionally stressful situations.)

It’s not necessarily a bad or wrong thing. It’s just the process of becoming aware. And me thinks you are making excellent progress in that area.

*****

And because I know you want specific examples…

- The comparison of lying about your 500 lb weight (a measurable absolute) to your perception of what it means for your wife to demonstrate love and respect for you.

- The correlation that to focus on your own authenticity and vulnerability equates to/ results in being indifferent that your wife is having "anal sex with other dudes". (Even your choice of language here is inflammatory so as to "win" based on that particular "equivalency". - You resort to this particular aspect of her affair frequently…and especially when you are being "challenged".)

-seeing yourself as a victim, your wife as a villain, as binary…when your relationship as a whole is not binary. I’m sure there are experiences where those roles have been reversed (and thus not binary)…so then we would just being viewing that qualitatively.

Again, I encourage you to view this as how they are meant to serve - as examples.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 11:34 PM, Friday, July 15th]

My issue is I don’t believe that is possible—if she saw him at 4 p.m. and then came home and had sex with me a few hours later one of the car meet up days, she would 100% know she did that or 100% know she did not. Her answer that she doesn’t think so screams a lie to me.

My own WW has similar behavior.

She apparently could not remember things where my mind would scream "THERE IS NO WAY YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED!!!!"

I was informed by a counselor we were seeing at one point that WW suffered from something called Catholic Guilt. I'm not Catholic, and I don't know if the "guilt" is a real thing. But apparently she has such an aversion to feeling shame or accountability that she obfuscates, avoids, minimizes, etc... in order to not feel bad about herself because she can't stand how that feels.

Getting someone like that to true remorse if nigh impossible because they don't want to feel bad (not that they think what they did was ok, they just avoid it altogether).

I was informed by a counselor we were seeing at one point that WW suffered from something called Catholic Guilt.

What a poor counselor. Blaming someone's lack of accountability on a religion that teaches people to be accountable. Um, yeah. I'm sure that was it. Not just the typical WW entitlement and ego.

[This message edited by morningglory at 1:02 AM, Saturday, July 16th]

What a poor counselor. Blaming someone's lack of accountability on a religion that teaches people to be accountable. Um, yeah. I'm sure that was it. Not just the typical WW entitlement and ego.

Indeed. And it gave my WW a built in excuse for not coming 100% clean. "You see, I was traumatized as a child!".

While this is probably true to some degree, the fact remains that waywards that lack remorse have put up the walls (selfish, short sighted, destructive) that are so difficult to work with - hence thread after thread by frustrated BSs that can't figure out how to deal with someone they can't find the impetus to break away from.

(Doc - this was not a knock on you - just an observation based on personal experience)

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 1:34 AM, Saturday, July 16th]

Apologies for the lack of responses, but I haven’t had a minute free these last two days.

Truth, I did read your post yesterday and have been thinking it through. I was going to leave your examples of my "deflections" alone, but I genuinely don’t understand them, so I thought I should respond as it may help me sort it out in my own head.

- The comparison of lying about your 500 lb weight (a measurable absolute) to your perception of what it means for your wife to demonstrate love and respect for you.

Why do you think my wife having an affair isn’t a measurable absolute for her love and respect for me?

I don't ask that to be argumentative; I genuinely don’t understand your perspective. She was swallowing another man’s cum and then coming home and kissing me. She was having unprotected sex with another man—a serial cheater—and then gleefully sitting on my face. She sent me a nude photograph of herself for me to masterbate to just before having a four hour sex session with him.

Those are defined examples of her lack of respect for me. It’s binary. As for love, I suppose people can express love in all kinds of ways, so perhaps it’s not binary, but we certainly can agree she wasn’t treating me with love during the affair.

And really that was my point—my 500 pound example was just to make my point clear (unsuccessfully). But really, it’s all to say that I feel confident she did not love and respect me during the affair. You are challenging that point and I’m open to your perspective—I do not think it’s fair to claim I’m deflecting though.

- The correlation that to focus on your own authenticity and vulnerability equates to/ results in being indifferent that your wife is having "anal sex with other dudes". (Even your choice of language here is inflammatory so as to "win" based on that particular "equivalency". - You resort to this particular aspect of her affair frequently…and especially when you are being "challenged".)

My point here was that my WW’s actions will always affect me; you made the point that through examining my own authenticity and vulnerability, I could be less affected. And I agree with that.

-seeing yourself as a victim, your wife as a villain, as binary…when your relationship as a whole is not binary. I’m sure there are experiences where those roles have been reversed (and thus not binary)…so then we would just being viewing that qualitatively.

I’ve written about this since y oh to last post and I agree that the issues in our relationship with shared between us; however, the communication problems were with my wife. But again, the point that is binary is the affair, which is 100% my WW’s fault.

I’m open to discussing all these points further—but more to the point, I’m open to understanding *why* you feel they’re deflections of anything. And to do that, you’ll need to provide more context on your perspective. I need that to understand if I have something to learn here or if I just wholly disagree with you.

I was going to leave your examples of my "deflections" alone, but I genuinely don’t understand them, so I thought I should respond as it may help me sort it out in my own head.

I get this completely…and don’t want to cause a conundrum for you between responding (and potentially doing the same behavior as I’m trying to give as an example) vs sitting alone in your head with something you just don’t understand/get. My main and personal concern is to not JUST keep triggering you into old behavior.

I don't ask that to be argumentative; I genuinely don’t understand your perspective.

I also get this and believe it so I don’t want that aspect to be lost. Ultimately there’s a general shift I’m trying to encourage in your perspective…and that’s a process of coming to understand that you - through truly discovering your own authenticity - don’t need to self-protect the way you necessarily believe you need to do. It doesn’t mean that you aren’t affected by your wife’s behaviors…it means that you don’t have to be affected to the degree you are. And again, I believe you are making this shift. It, too, just takes time.

As another example…can you see the difference between asking this question - a very fair request for clarification, btw…

Why do you think my wife having an affair isn’t a measurable absolute for her love and respect for me?

And then following that with this?…

She was swallowing another man’s cum and then coming home and kissing me. She was having unprotected sex with another man—a serial cheater—and then gleefully sitting on my face. She sent me a nude photograph of herself for me to masterbate to just before having a four hour sex session with him.

I already know most of these things…they’ve been referenced numerous times so having this info is not necessary to clarify the situation. I’m also a BS that has experienced multiple betrayals. I get it…and perhaps the issue that needs clarification is whether or not you sense/believe that. But unless you really doubt that then I think this type of rebuttal/redirection is predominantly serving as a deflection. (And I hope this example also serves as to why I don’t want to push you. Doubling down on these aspects are the last thing I want to provoke you to do - unless those aspects are independently, and regardless of your wife’s current behavior, deal-breakers. If the latter is the case then we need to be having different discussions.)

Yes, the behaviors that your wife engaged while in her affair do demonstrate a lack of regard and respect for you. But they predominantly demonstrate a lack of respect and regard for herself. If she’s not genuinely operating out of her self-respect, self-regard, then she will never be able to authentically hold that same space for you. So while you are focused on primarily how this affects you, I am trying to emphasis how the relationship with herself is the driving factor for *her behavior*. I get that it all seems central and paramount *to you* but I’m trying to show you that in the bigger picture you are just the collateral damage.

This is why I challenged you earlier with the idea of what do you value more (if you had to choose, I get that you are hoping to see both)…her authenticity or that she changes her behavior - and particularly as to make you feel better. Can you see the pressure here that’s on your wife? Can you see how that pressure triggers her old childhood issues? And I won’t even speak to how changes that aren’t authentic create a bedrock of resentments that only fester and later end up eeking out in other ways.

None of this is to negate your feelings or your desires. And it certainly isn’t to give your wife a pass on her issues. She may authentically change, she may not. None of us have anyway of knowing - and certainly not by reading the tea leaves daily. This is the unknown territory you are in; you do have other choices. I truly have no dog in that fight so there’s no possible way or even reason to advise you in that aspect.

I’m just trying to offer some suggestions on how to get the most out of this experience since it has been thrust upon you. I’m also listening to the things you are saying - taken completely at face value - and trying to offer some advise - in both perspective and subsequently, reactions - so as not to further contribute to the things you don’t want. At the same time, it’s not beneficial for you to behave inauthentically either…so that’s why sincerely focusing on yourself and working on your own issues/growth is paramount. You have your own "lessons" in this "class" to master. You seem to think that fixing your wife will fix this for you, will get you out of this "classroom". It won’t. And so long as you both are focusing g on her, it’s quite likely that you aren’t working in tandem. IOW, it’s likely actually harmful/counter-productive.

Get out of her way, DrS. Let her be and then hopefully she will become. Deal internally with your own idea of what you need from her and, more importantly, WHY. (Go beyond just the logistics in that exploration.). Focus on shoring up those needs inside yourself - independent of her behavior. Understand that all your experiences outside are just reflections of your internal world. (Ever wondered why some things really bother you wheareas others don’t? It’s less about the things themselves and more about our internal assignments of their meaning. This is what I was trying to convey with the example of security pre dday vs post.)

You’re being called to do this inner work; it’s what’s being asked of all us BSs. But we won’t get there - and worse we will continue to get the test in one experience or another - until we do the work and actually pass on our own. This is YOUR lesson. View it through that lens and change your focus and then every aspect of this situation will have real value. ❤️

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 7:19 PM, Sunday, July 17th]

Realized too that I didn’t answer your actual question that I quoted above…and that by doing so, it might also help you to get a better perspective of what I am trying to say as a whole.

In your question of respect and regard (and I’m talking mostly in terms of how that should look now), it strangely made me think of a parable that Jesus told in the Bible. (If you’re not religious, please don’t let this example put you off; I’m not religious either.)

The rich Pharisees were proudly and publicly tossing money in the collection plate. A poor widow came along and gave only two coins. The Pharisees mocked her for such a small contribution…but through the eyes of Jesus she had given the most because she gave all she had.

In so many things, value/worth is subjective. It all depends on how you want to view it.

Truth, thank you for the reply. It’s difficult to respond as thoroughly as I’d like on my phone while on this trip, but I thought I’d address two things:

As another example…can you see the difference between asking this question - a very fair request for clarification, btw…

And then following that with this?…

Why do you think I did that? To me, it seemed like your position was illogical. My WW committed acts that are verifiable proof of her lack of love and respect for me (in my view). You disagreed. You thought it wasn’t binary. So I asked you to explain and laid out a handful of examples to state my case. The response I was expecting was for you to make your case. Instead you deflected to my approach—which again, I’m not judging you or being argumentative, I’m just pointing out my view and lack of clarity on you citing this as an example of my deflection and me viewing it entirely opposite.

Deal internally with your own idea of what you need from her and, more importantly, WHY. (Go beyond just the logistics in that exploration.). Focus on shoring up those needs inside yourself - independent of her behavior. Understand that all your experiences outside are just reflections of your internal world. (Ever wondered why some things really bother you wheareas others don’t? It’s less about the things themselves and more about our internal assignments of their meaning.

I wonder all the time why certain things bother me more than others. It’s all I think about often. Certain things stick in my head and truthfully seem to resolve themselves, either through writing about them here, therapy, or talking with my WW about them.

I’ll give an example, as it may help. One thing that has been bothering me for the last couple of months is a moment my WW told me about. On Feb. 24, she started the night with a BJ, then they went into sex and anal with handcuffs, etc. It was a whirlwind beginning to the night and he came twice without skipping a beat.

After his second orgasm, he collected himself, unlocked the cuffs, and said: "Well that was a great way to start the night!"

Then they talked a bit and I think went to try sex in the bath. However, the comment he made has really bothered me—like really bothered me. And it’s strange, considering all the other stuff that surrounded it, why does *that* detail effect me most? It seems illogical, but I haven’t been able to shake it. I explore it deeply constantly.

My best guess is because I think it demonstrates their happiness in that moment—I can picture him saying that and both smiling, reveling in the post-sex glow of the moment. I think it also feels like it’s at my expense—he was using my wife and didn’t have a thought in the world about me, while she was just thrilled to be having such a fun experience with a man she was really into, unlike me.

I feel like it’s a moment I just can’t square and resolve in my head so I can heal from it. Perhaps it’s back to the love and respect issue, but maybe not.

It makes me very angry and I don’t know what to do with it. And it’s very specifically tied to the comment and they’re happiness, not the sex. My WW being so happy with someone else—even though it was all fantasy—is really something I struggle with. And it’s odd because I know the truth is she was immeasurably unhappy—but still it lingers.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 9:28 PM, Sunday, July 17th]

Why do you think I did that? To me, it seemed like your position was illogical.

I know. It’s partly because - imo - you think in absolutes, black and white. For it to settle in your mind it must fit in well defined boxes…so that’s your framing. You want me to get in the dirt with you and debate the specifics. I can’t/won’t do that for two reasons: First, it misses the larger point I’m trying to make. In fact, it’s exactly what Im trying to get you NOT to do. Secondly, this is your strong suit and where you establish control and dominance. Thus your goal changes from understanding to "winning". I don’t think you see this because you are so articulate (and persistent I might also add ) that I would guess you have had lots of life experiences that have reinforced the notion that, yes, indeed you were "right" when what you have actually received instead is simply concession likely based out of the other person’s exhaustion or exasperation.

I think you have also confused or incorrectly conflated some of my examples.

Example 1 (weight): My point was that demonstration of love and respect are not absolutes. The story of the husband that was mad because his wife had made his sandwiches with the heel of the bread for 40 yrs and he was tired of her selfishness - to only learn that the heel of the bread was her favorite pieces. None of this applies specifically to her affair because that act alone eliminates some of the "givens that are reasonable to expect in a committed relationship. So when I talk about the concept of love and respect I am referencing the things post dday. But I can’t seem to get to that aspect without it being reverted to actual affair stuff - this why I call that deflection.

Example 2 - I don’t even remember and I’m too short on time (and running a little low on the energy) to go back and look it up. It seems like it may have not been as significant to you maybe?

Example 3 (victim/villain being binary) - I’m speaking to the relationship*as a whole* - and this was one more example of the point that I’m trying to make about absolutes. If you want to use those identities in regards to just the affair - ok. The bigger point was that it doesn’t represent the roles of your relationship *as a whole.*. I’m sure there are places (and arguments that could be made) for where your wife felt victimized. I get that you may now feel you have the trump card if it comes to quantitative. But is that what you really want to do - hold onto the quantitative "win"? Will that serve you as you move forward?

I get the issue you are having with your most recent specific example. It’s funny how those little things seem to be hanging chads. I can speak more to this particular aspect - and will if that’s what you need (again, just short on time but wanted to get as much of a reply to you as I can given our likely time differences). But my strong suspicion why this is hanging you up likely has to do with some subconscious message you are assigning for what this means/says *about you*. So what is that message? Can you dig to maybe find it?

Dr. Your last post is an example of why I say this is a deal breaker for you.

You remind me so much of myself at this stage. Being a Type A personality myself, I needed to understand every interaction, every conversation. It then drawn on me, its not a logical act so it will never be logical for me.

Some parts you will simply have to accept, I dont think you will be able to do that, yet, your not comfortable with moving on from this relationship *YET*.

Since your not comfortable moving on, you're putting your wife in an untenable position, because your also not comfortable with continuing just haven't been able to admit that yet.

I've been around BH's a long time, I've talked with hundreds of them and its the most easily recognized dynamic.

The internal struggle you've found yourself in is like self-worth, esteem and moral values vs the love you have for your wife. Its there bubbling under the surface. If you truly admit to yourself who she is both during the affair and since you know you can't or won't accept it.

I think this is part of the inauthentic view that some are picking up on.

If you would let go of trying to control your wife's journey through this process it may ease your internal struggle abit. Either she will prove herself worthy and you can then feel better about wanting to try or she won't.

Secondly, this is your strong suit and where you establish control and dominance. Thus your goal changes from understanding to "winning". I don’t think you see this because you are so articulate (and persistent I might also add wink ) that I would guess you have had lots of life experiences that have reinforced the notion that, yes, indeed you were "right" when what you have actually received instead is simply concession likely based out of the other person’s exhaustion or exasperation.

Perhaps I don’t see it…or perhaps your assessment is wrong. You’re right that my strength is debating in the weeds, but I think you’re wrong that my goal is always winning. I can use our "conflict" here as an example—I can tell you I have zero desire to win.

My sole desire is understanding your perspective so I can evaluate its merit. I assume going into this conversation that *you* have something valuable to teach me—but I also need to understand what it is you’re teaching me (and my exasperating conversation skills are how I do that).

I’d much prefer you teach me something than me best you in a debate.

Example 1 (weight): My point was that demonstration of love and respect are not absolutes. The story of the husband that was mad because his wife had made his sandwiches with the heel of the bread for 40 yrs and he was tired of her selfishness - to only learn that the heel of the bread was her favorite pieces. None of this applies specifically to her affair because that act alone eliminates some of the "givens that are reasonable to expect in a committed relationship. So when I talk about the concept of love and respect I am referencing the things post dday. But I can’t seem to get to that aspect without it being reverted to actual affair stuff - this why I call that deflection.

It was not clear to me that you were speaking to my wife’s actions post-DDay rather than during the affair. That’s a *big* difference, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk that up to miscommunication. But yes, her binary actions of no love and disrespect during the affair have led to my difficulty seeing through her non-binary love/respect post affair. So I think we agree. However, that is then not an example of either of us deflecting anything, it’s an example of us not understanding each other.

Example 3 (victim/villain being binary) - I’m speaking to the relationship*as a whole* - and this was one more example of the point that I’m trying to make about absolutes. If you want to use those identities in regards to just the affair - ok. The bigger point was that it doesn’t represent the roles of your relationship *as a whole.*. I’m sure there are places (and arguments that could be made) for where your wife felt victimized. I get that you may now feel you have the trump card if it comes to quantitative. But is that what you really want to do - hold onto the quantitative "win"? Will that serve you as you move forward?

Again, we agree here too, but I wasn’t deflecting anything lol—I was just laying out the qualitative facts. I am *more* a victim than my wife—ok, now what? As you point out, I have no desire to be in this role a second longer. The faster I can get out of limbo, the faster I can work toward never being a victim in my life again. I’m incredibly uncomfortable in this role, I’m just establishing facts so everything is transparent.

But my strong suspicion why this is hanging you up likely has to do with some subconscious message you are assigning for what this means/says *about you*. So what is that message? Can you dig to maybe find it?

I think you’re right. I think my issue is that the moment makes me feel very unloved and disrespected. It’s a microcosm of the entire A. Flip the script a bit and pretend my wife told me she was going to the hotel and told me everything that happened when she got back, and I don’t *think* I feel either of those things because it’s something me and my wife would have been doing "together." That she had this secret second life without me makes me feel incredibly vulnerable—not because she was having sex, but because she was devaluing me emotionally.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 9:32 AM, Monday, July 18th]

Dr. Your last post is an example of why I say this is a deal breaker for you.

You remind me so much of myself at this stage. Being a Type A personality myself, I needed to understand every interaction, every conversation. It then drawn on me, its not a logical act so it will never be logical for me.

Some parts you will simply have to accept, I dont think you will be able to do that, yet, your not comfortable with moving on from this relationship *YET*.

Since your not comfortable moving on, you're putting your wife in an untenable position, because your also not comfortable with continuing just haven't been able to admit that yet.

I've been around BH's a long time, I've talked with hundreds of them and its the most easily recognized dynamic.

The internal struggle you've found yourself in is like self-worth, esteem and moral values vs the love you have for your wife. Its there bubbling under the surface. If you truly admit to yourself who she is both during the affair and since you know you can't or won't accept it.

I think this is part of the inauthentic view that some are picking up on.

If you would let go of trying to control your wife's journey through this process it may ease your internal struggle abit. Either she will prove herself worthy and you can then feel better about wanting to try or she won't.

I understand exactly what you mean and as I think I’ve mentioned before: you may turn out to be correct. I just haven’t arrived at that conclusion yet.

In exploring that though, I have a feeling my kink could save my ability to R—I really don’t feel much anger for her over the sex and I’d imagine that’s typically the dealbreaker for most men. But that only will be the case if I feel my WW is making as significant an effort as I am in finding a path forward for us.