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Well,if she still,for some odd reason, doesn't know what work she should be doing, that's on her. You've told her. And she could have asked other waywards here,on SI,and they would have been very precise. If she doesn't know, it's because she is choosing not to know.

I think many of us believe she DOES know. She just won't do it.

Well,if she still,for some odd reason, doesn't know what work she should be doing, that's on her. You've told her. And she could have asked other waywards here,on SI,and they would have been very precise. If she doesn't know, it's because she is choosing not to know.

I think many of us believe she DOES know. She just won't do it.

I think she does recognize what she needs to do—she can talk about it clearly in many conversations. The issue for her is identifying the moments and behaving appropriately when they arise.

Even with the divorce comment last night—she apologized for it, recognizing it was insensitive. She just can’t recognize these things before she says them.

I hope the week with her family will give her a chance to reset and come back with more purpose and fight.

The issue for her is identifying the moments and behaving appropriately when they arise.

Behaving appropriately - absolutely - but I find it a little strange that you think she is having trouble identifying these moments because they follow a predictable pattern regarding things related to her A. It would make sense to me if she frequently throws out little jabs or turns things around to be all about her therefore anything that could relate to the A is drowned out. But I'm not sure if your descriptions of her has highlighted this. So either she really does have an ongoing, consistent, daily struggle to have some perspective and give consideration to others making it hard for her to even notice that she's doing it about A stuff in the moment OR she is mostly or only doing this when it comes to A stuff which implies some deliberation.

I think it's good that you will be getting a break from each other. It seems to me that every time you have a positive conversation or day with her, you think to yourself, "Now is when the remorse starts. Now I will start seeing it," and then you are disappointed when inevitably she fails again the next day. It takes a LONG long time for someone to reverse years of poor behavior. You're not going to see remorse from her tomorrow, next week, and maybe not even several months from now. You're not going to see it after the next good conversation either. It's going to be a long, hard road of her continuing to apologize and re-offend at the next available opportunity because that has been her modus operandi.

Every day, she continues to show you who she is. Eventually you will believe her.

This cannot be said enough, Dr. S.

This is where the parable of the scorpion and the frog comes to mind.

You married a child, Dr. S...one who likely can't grow up. Likely the reason she married you is because she needs (but doesn't necessarily want) that parental figure in her life...even as she continues to resent that figure (you) for continuing to parent her.

It really is time to let her go.

I hope you enjoy your solo vacation, brother. Take care.

Greetings from Rome!

Behaving appropriately - absolutely - but I find it a little strange that you think she is having trouble identifying these moments because they follow a predictable pattern regarding things related to her A. It would make sense to me if she frequently throws out little jabs or turns things around to be all about her therefore anything that could relate to the A is drowned out. But I'm not sure if your descriptions of her has highlighted this. So either she really does have an ongoing, consistent, daily struggle to have some perspective and give consideration to others making it hard for her to even notice that she's doing it about A stuff in the moment OR she is mostly or only doing this when it comes to A stuff which implies some deliberation.

She’s instinctively defensive about everything it would seem—it appears that she is actively trying to avoid being defensive about affair topics. The issue is that her definition of an affair-related conversation is different than mine. I see virtually all our talks as affair-related right now. I’m looking for remorse and understanding and she’s looking to establish a new version of herself that has boundaries and stands up for herself.

I don’t get the sense that she feels right about anything having to do with the affair—which is what makes this current situation so frustrating. All I want her to do is back off and stop fighting with me—if I'm giving her feedback or sharing my feelings, I don’t want her to attack me for anything in that moment—because quite literally nothing she can attack me for is equivalent to what she did; and often it’s not even relevant.

I think it's good that you will be getting a break from each other. It seems to me that every time you have a positive conversation or day with her, you think to yourself, "Now is when the remorse starts. Now I will start seeing it," and then you are disappointed when inevitably she fails again the next day. It takes a LONG long time for someone to reverse years of poor behavior. You're not going to see remorse from her tomorrow, next week, and maybe not even several months from now. You're not going to see it after the next good conversation either. It's going to be a long, hard road of her continuing to apologize and re-offend at the next available opportunity because that has been her modus operandi.

I need to feel like she is trying—and I do. She is reprogramming herself and it’s moving slowly, so I’m frequently frustrated. I just need proof of life from her that she is capable of understanding me and not picking a frivolous fight for a stretch of time. She just needs to back off.

I think we left off very clear on what I’m expecting from her. She now has a week to contemplate it and return refreshed and reset. I feel like we’re in the home stretch of *something* and I’m trying not to feel swayed in any direction. I don’t need her to be a new person this summer though.

You married a child, Dr. S...one who likely can't grow up. Likely the reason she married you is because she needs (but doesn't necessarily want) that parental figure in her life...even as she continues to resent that figure (you) for continuing to parent her.

It really is time to let her go.

I don’t think that’s unfair to write—and you’re not alone. But she is certainly trying. IC twice a week, MC once a week, and reading self help books in all her free time (while we’re still managing jobs and family).

Now, that doesn’t mean she will succeed, but I disagree with the idea that she can’t change or doesn’t want to change—the effort is there.

I also understand how I’m always arguing against the middle in most of my responses, but I’m doing my best to stay balanced and fair. I really don’t now how this turns out—I feel like I know what I want though and I’m open to seeing her sink or swim.

I hope you enjoy your solo vacation, brother. Take care.

Thank you! I just devoured a bowl of fresh gnocchi and then had some gelato. Can’t complain.

It's going to be a long, hard road of her continuing to apologize and re-offend at the next available opportunity because that has been her modus operandi.

I see a lot of Captain Rogers wife in your WW DrS. Slightly different in attitude and functions but the persistent distorted world view. It took years and a few exceptional counselors to get her to the point where she really gets how awful her treatment of him was, admit it, and start to address it and make amends.

but I’m doing my best to stay balanced and fair.

That's because you ARE balanced and fair. The thing that I like about your recent posts is that you have gone from being angry about a lack of progress from your WW to being very aware that she is trying and is making a real effort. Yes, it may be a false dawn but for you to be acknowledging this effort gives some hope.

Have a wonderful trip.

When your WW gets defensive, instead of arguing or trying to be logical with her, why not simply say this:

"Excuse me? I’m not sure I understand what I just heard. I’m not the one who had sex with another man, engaged in an EA, bad mouthed me to everyone, and jeopardized my personal health, my marriage, and the well being of our children."

Then walk away.

I would say and do this exact thing, every time, when in the moment she’s being defensive and not getting it. Let her figure out for herself what she said and did wrong in the moment, instead of you trying to rationally explain it to her each time.

It took years and a few exceptional counselors to get her to the point where she really gets how awful her treatment of him was, admit it, and start to address it and make amends.

Yes..years. Years of continued pain and abuse. Years of constant disappointment. To the point that he detached from her,and now feels very little connection to his wife.

I do see the similarities. He too,had to drag his wife,kicking and screaming,through attempted reconciliation.

As to whether his wife gets it? Time will tell. It wouldn't be the first (or second,or third, or...) time she said the right things,and he thought she finally got it,only to be disappointed again.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:01 PM, Thursday, July 14th]

Hi Doc,
Still trying to catch up on your thread. On page 43 you stated:

Instead, she told me I shouldn't think of the affair as sex-based because to her it was emotionally-based. Her logic, which had nothing to do with the facts or my feelings, was that because for her she was having her emotional needs met, the sex shouldn't bother me as much; she was telling me that I was wasting my time being upset over the sex when I should really be upset over how connected she felt to him.

This is a conundrum of the monogamous relationship, while she can get her primary need for emotional connection through other relationships, he is restricted to only one relationship for meeting his primary need of sexual connection.

Men who believe in and commit to monogamy can only legitimately have those needs met in one relationship. So when he discovers that she is or has been free-wheeling and adventurous sexually outside of the relationship or prior to the relationship, unlike within the relationship, he feels like he is being used; a meal ticket or a fall back plan B. He thinks she cares about him for what he provides (stability, safety, money, comfort, appearances, status) but she doesn't authentically desire him. It is when the man wakes up to this and REFUSES to accept this imbalance......

I don’t know that it’s particular fair to judge the "starts and stops" with DrS’ wife as being manipulative (when she doing well) and indifferent or incapable (when she’s failing). I also don’t necessarily think it fair to draw correlation to other posters when they have been in the situation for years.

I’m not knocking any particular response or perspective. DrS has put it all out there in a community that has had lots of different experiences (all the way around)…so he’s going to get those perspectives - and I do think that they each can serve him in different ways.

But at the end of the day, it has only been a very short period of time that any of this work has been addressed or even recognized as needing to be done. And the prior dysfunction (on both sides) that has created the whole of this situation has been in place likely since the beginning. In a nutshell, there’s a lot to unpack and that takes time. There is also children and finances involved so I think it fair if those extraneous aspects factor into DrS’ willingness to give the situation time.

As an aside, my XWH did many of the "right things" early on. That could be interpreted to be remorse and sincerity - but in my case, it turned out that the reason he did much of that was to keep me "calmed down" while he doubled down on his double life. IOW, it’s really hard to determine motive and intent. But with time, that aspect becomes clearer.

Regardless the outcome, there’s still plenty of "self-growth" work that DrS can be focused on. But unfortunately due to DrS’ skillful (and likely subconscious) ability to deflect and then his wife’s frequent defensive and self-defeating behaviors that contribute to the fodder, we just keep going around and around on all the superficial issues. On a positive note and FWIW (as my own opinion), I do see some growth on both their parts so perhaps this is just the process.

I see a lot of Captain Rogers wife in your WW DrS. Slightly different in attitude and functions but the persistent distorted world view.

Can you please share a link?

He too,had to drag his wife,kicking and screaming,through attempted reconciliation.

I feel like the parameters are set. I would like to explore R if possible. I know what I need from my WW first. She knows what I need from her. I have a loose timeframe to see it.

I feel like I just need to stay balanced and the path will reveal itself to me. Though I also recognize staying balanced can be difficult because I have emotional swings in both directions—and those are internal issues I’m working through, not reactions to my WW’s behavior. I have now been able to identify when an emotional swing is happening though, so that’s also progress.

Doc. To me, you’ve been "exploring R" the entire time. You may not think so, but all of your actions are indicative of a BS working towards R.

Had you detached and done the 180, while observing your WWs actions, to me that would have been more indicative of weighing a decision to R vs separate/divorce.

There’s nothing necessary wrong with any of this, but I personally think it’s important that you recognize the different options you could have pursued, and what that would have looked like.

Many, many here advised you to detach and do the 180 to add clarity for yourself and hold your WWs feet to the fire, provide consequences, snd provide you with some objectively to observe her actions. However, it’s not the way you preferred to handle things, which is fine, but just understand what you did snd did not pursue.

You’re not pleased with the lack of empathy your WW is expressing. That seems to be your major issue. I will say this: I personally believe, no matter whatever anxiety your WW expressed, or you think she expressed, about the potential for you to D her, deep down both of you knew from the start that you weren’t going to D her. All of your actions spoke to that.

I think had you done it a bit differently, you might have gotten a different result in the WW empathy quotient, as well as her exhibiting less defensiveness and digging of heals. If she didn’t fear the specter of D, than why be more agreeable and change the terrible part of her personality in which this is all entwined.

You probably disagree, snd that’s of course totally fine. You’re reconciling with your WW snd that’s terrific. However, if you see significant backsliding on her part, more entitlement, no progress on empathy, not getting it, continuing to pick unnecessary fights, snd still being defensive, to me it’s probably because she knows you’re not going anywhere, snd never were.

All of this is important to recognize for one reason. If you have to reevaluate down the road your decision to R, and perhaps come up with a new strategy/process, you may consider detaching and doing the 180.

Wishing you luck in R.

This is a conundrum of the monogamous relationship, while she can get her primary need for emotional connection through other relationships, he is restricted to only one relationship for meeting his primary need of sexual connection.

Men who believe in and commit to monogamy can only legitimately have those needs met in one relationship. So when he discovers that she is or has been free-wheeling and adventurous sexually outside of the relationship or prior to the relationship, unlike within the relationship, he feels like he is being used; a meal ticket or a fall back plan B. He thinks she cares about him for what he provides (stability, safety, money, comfort, appearances, status) but she doesn't authentically desire him. It is when the man wakes up to this and REFUSES to accept this imbalance......

I think that speaks to how I feel very well. Her sexual experiences outside the relationship feel especially cruel because she was so down on our sexual relationship. She acknowledges how selfish her actions were, but I hadn’t felt she understands my position and pain.

If I had a PA, I’d have likely justified it by our poor sex life—so while morally wrong, there is a logical defense: We had a bad sex life; I tried to communicate it for years, but you refused to engage in the conversation.

Her PA feels so insane to me because she never tried to communicate any sexual frustration to me. And if it was only about her EA, she didn’t need to escalate it to more than a friendship if she wasn’t interested in the sex. She can say she had sex because he wanted it and she wanted to maintain the relationship, but that’s obviously bull shit. I’ve had numerous female friends I had to lose because they wanted more and I did not—so if that’s something I as a man can relate to, I know my WW, as an attractive female, has certainly had to deal with. The truth is she was cruel to me and I need her to see it for me to move into R.

But at the end of the day, it has only been a very short period of time that any of this work has been addressed or even recognized as needing to be done. And the prior dysfunction (on both sides) that has created the whole of this situation has been in place likely since the beginning. In a nutshell, there’s a lot to unpack and that takes time.

I really like your posts truthsetmefree, there is so much more complexity to the situation and to the people involved in it. If DrS is willing to give his wife time to work on herself I don't see how helpful is to hammer down over and over what a lost cause she is using every reported failing as a demonstration that the "right" outcome here is D. She is trying and DrS is willing to let her. Change is hard but if achieved can be rewarding too, for both of them, whether they decide to stay together or part ways.

It's true that there is a villain and a victim to the affair, but I don't think this is necessary true to the general dynamic of the relashionship here and I think DrS is also open to explore that although it's rather too soon now while they are still in limbo.

DrS, to me personally your inclination for debate and conflict is a bit exhausting sometimes but I do admire your desire to go deeper and don't back off from exploring what "can be" rather than what it is right now. I think this will serve you well whichever path you choose in the future.

I hope this break with help you both regroup emotionally. Adn enjoy Italy! I am originally from the Alps there so I'd recommend polenta although I don't know how good a choice that would be with 38 degrees... :)

The above post is excellent.

As to Captain Rogers, if you look in the reconciliation forum,he has a current thread. Keep in mind,he's been here for many years. So I'm not sure how far back you can read,of his story. Also,keep in mind,the success he is seeing now,has taken many,many years to get to. And it's taken a major toll on him. Also,this would not be the first time he thought they had passed a corner,only to be disappointed.

As to whether it's fair to compare you,with him. Maybe not. I've just seen many of the same things in your wife,that we've seen in his. Yes, you are early into all of this. It's just something I picked up on,and apparently I'm not the only one.

Is your wife trying? Maybe. She goes to IC,but you don't know what happens in those sessions. She goes to MC,and she's reading books. None of that matters if she doesn't use the tools she's being given. And,every day,the behavior continues.

Remorse, and not being defensive, are two of the top 3 things a WS must do in order to be R material. The other, by the way,is NC. I see people here telling you it's ok that she is still unremorseful, and defensive,because this is new to her. It's often said here,that you can not attempt reconciliation with an unremorseful WS. I'm not sure why yours should be the exception.

I don’t know that it’s particular fair to judge the "starts and stops" with DrS’ wife as being manipulative (when she doing well) and indifferent or incapable (when she’s failing).

Agreed. I’m trying very hard to be an honest broker, but I recognize I’m in an emotionally fragile position and it’s sometimes impossible.

Often I’ll be rooting for her to fail so I can justify walking; or rooting for her to succeed to we can give R a try. I fluctuate to extremes and it’s truthfully very annoying. I keep reminding myself of my basic tenets for what I am trying to accomplish right now limbo. And I’m already prepared—if in a couple of months I ask her for R or I ask her to move out, I expect an equal amount of shocked readers in my thread in both directions.

My goal is to keep myself from leaning in any direction without cause. I need to measure her actions, not my fickle emotions.

But unfortunately due to DrS’ skillful (and likely subconscious) ability to deflect…

What are you referring to? Is there anything specific you feel I’m deflecting with my WW?

Doc. To me, you’ve been "exploring R" the entire time. You may not think so, but all of your actions are indicative of a BS working towards R.

Had you detached and done the 180, while observing your WWs actions, to me that would have been more indicative of weighing a decision to R vs separate/divorce.

There’s nothing necessary wrong with any of this, but I personally think it’s important that you recognize the different options you could have pursued, and what that would have looked like.

Many, many here advised you to detach and do the 180 to add clarity for yourself and hold your WWs feet to the fire, provide consequences, snd provide you with some objectively to observe her actions. However, it’s not the way you preferred to handle things, which is fine, but just understand what you did snd did not pursue.

You’re not pleased with the lack of empathy your WW is expressing. That seems to be your major issue. I will say this: I personally believe, no matter whatever anxiety your WW expressed, or you think she expressed, about the potential for you to D her, deep down both of you knew from the start that you weren’t going to D her. All of your actions spoke to that.

I think had you done it a bit differently, you might have gotten a different result in the WW empathy quotient, as well as her exhibiting less defensiveness and digging of heals. If she didn’t fear the specter of D, than why be more agreeable and change the terrible part of her personality in which this is all entwined.

You probably disagree, snd that’s of course totally fine. You’re reconciling with your WW snd that’s terrific. However, if you see significant backsliding on her part, more entitlement, no progress on empathy, not getting it, continuing to pick unnecessary fights, snd still being defensive, to me it’s probably because she knows you’re not going anywhere, snd never were.

All of this is important to recognize for one reason. If you have to reevaluate down the road your decision to R, and perhaps come up with a new strategy/process, you may consider detaching and doing the 180.

Wishing you luck in R.

I’m not sure how to take your post, Dude.

Over the last four months, we’ve had lows of me talking through filing for D with my lawyer, looking through short term leases for my WW to take so she can move out, and brief decisions by both of us, separately, to D. There have absolutely been points along this path where my WW knew our M was on the edge. Ultimately, what she thinks doesn’t matter very much though—it’s what I think of her behavior that matters right now.

I just look at R and D a bit differently I guess. I’m still open to R, but I recognize there’s a closing time window. Will my WW prove enough for me to offer her R? I honestly don’t know—sometimes I’m hoping she does, other times I’m closing my eyes hoping I can just run out the clock.

I will add though that R will still be on the table if I ask her to move out and D will still be on the table if I ask her to R. Moving out of limbo is just a first step for me. It’s really just as simple as me recognizing I can’t R until I see signs of XYZ from my WW. It’s a litmus test she needs to pass in the time window I’m giving her.

And perhaps that all sounds overly harsh, but it’s the only way I know how to move forward right now. I need to keep some optimism for R regardless though because if I don’t, she may pass my litmus test and I’ll end up disappointed—I feel like that’s the worst emotional outcome right now. I need to maintain some positive hope for what our relationship could be in an ideal scenario—without that, I’m just a masochist at this point.