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OP. Please return the ring. Your WW doesn’t deserve anything from you of value. This ring is part of the pick me dance. You are not even close by any means to a renewal stage.

If anything, she should be buying you an expensive gift. Do you think when you get home there will be a gift waiting for you, of any value? You’re obviously a selfless person. Your WW on the other hand showed you through her A that she’s selfish. Please don’t reward her now.

You need to remember that you’re the prize, not her. Return the ring and buy yourself an expensive gift. Hopefully you can purchase a gift for yourself in which it’s obvious to your WW that moving forward you’re your number one priority, in addition to your kids. Again, stop the pick me dance present stuff.

What Dude said.

Anyway, perhaps the above is just the ranting of a madman lol. Maybe I’m entirely lost and just can’t see it.

Well I wouldn't go quite as far as 'the ranting of a madman' but I do agree with the other posters and suggest you take a big step back and really think about what message you're sending to your WW by giving her this gift so soon after her betrayal.

I want to give it to her when I return not because I’m convinced I’ll stay with her, but because I want to prove to myself I’m capable of looking forward instead of backward. I want to prove to myself that I’m capable of evolving into a better version of myself.

"True generosity is an offering; given freely and out of pure love. No strings attached. No expectations."

It's clear you have a big heart but you must understand there can be NO expectations whatsoever if you do decide to give her the ring.

I trust your WW is working at least as hard as you are to prove to herself and to you that she's capable of evolving into a better version of herself?

Best wishes.

So I hadn’t checked in on this thread since my last post, but I begrudgingly arrived at the same conclusion you all did regarding the ring over the last day.

After the last post I went to a different hotel (Il San Pietro) in Positano—without exaggeration, it’s the most beautiful place I’ve been to on Earth. After I proposed to my wife in Rome more than a decade ago, I took her there for the first time. We just went back again this past October.

Coming back here now I was flooded with emotions and I’d say I was more angry that I’ve been throughout this process. Every place on the property had a memory with my wife—and just six months ago we were here and very happy. I couldn’t square the idea that her husband brought her here and she felt so invalidated less than two months later that she began an affair.

It was also a weird day for another reason—and I’ll share this here—but the entire day was filled with potential sexual opportunities.

When I arrived, we had to wait an hour+ for our room—a gorgeous woman approached me and asked if I could take a photo of her. It turned into a bizarre photo shoot—she was an IG model getting paid to travel and wear her cloths. We spent 10 minutes chatting as I took the pics, but I had no interest in pursuing anything.

I went to work out to clear my head, but it just reminded me of being there with my wife who used the bike while I lifted in Oct. The OBS had reached out to me overnight, so I responded once it was time appropriate back in the US. It led to a nearly two hour text exchange; included in it was a proposition for "us to have our fun."

It took me by surprise and I diffused it, saying I’d likely end up feeling worse sinking to my WW’s level.

Then I went out to dinner with my mom and her friends we were meeting—two other older couples. We had to take the shuttle up the mountain to the restaurant and we end up on it with a dozen college girls studying abroad. All seemingly very loose women up for a good time. Again, I was polite, but diffused anything.

Then we arrived at dinner and I was seated across one of the other women (probably 55-60 years old). She was making herself quite clear, noting that she wasn’t married to her partner sitting next to her and trying to play footsie under the table. A very sweet woman, and very attractive for her age, but again I diffused the situation and would bring up my wife often to dissuade her.

That all those situations arose with me at my weakest felt very strange. I’m not religious, but I spent enough time in catholic school to see the lesson in it all.

I really don’t want any of that—I want my wife to fix herself and me to find the generosity to forgive her for what she did. That’s my preferred outcome. However, I do realize giving her the ring now would be a gift of R she has not yet earned. At a minimum, I decided to at least wait until her birthday at the end of May before doing anything with the ring, so that will give me another month to evaluate her progress. If she’s still not there, I can wait longer—I need to try to evaluate her change objectively.

Meanwhile, what do you hear from her. How safe are you feeling with her back at home. Is she working hard to give you peace of mind? Have others reported back to you?

I’ve been on a roller coaster of emotions this trip and she is definitely feeling that. Before bed every night she’s been writing me an email about her day, the kids and how she’s feeling; and it’s the first thing I read in the morning and reply to. We’ve also been texting intermittently. We also sexted twice and that was fun.

Yesterday my mood definitely affected her though—she spent most of the day crying after I sent her photos from the hotel and she’s at the end of her sanity dealing with both children.

If you’re asking how safe I feel about her not cheating now, I feel entirely safe. My family has been with her often and the OBS felt confident my WW and OM have not communicated. All involved agree this A was physical, not romantic, and with both betrayers trying desperately to reconcile, the well is currently poisoned for them with each other.

Anyway, today is my birthday and I’m at the most beautiful place on the planet, so I probably should find a way to enjoy it. Perhaps a visit to the spa might help.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 10:29 PM, Thursday, May 26th]

Before you had posted that you snd your WW were enjoying yourselves on a beach in Florida and she was all the while texting OM. Now we learn that six months ago you took her here to Italy and also had a wonderful time. What a terrible husband you were.

One other thing about the ring. You said you might give it to your WW in May for her birthday. If the A had never happened, do you suppose that you would have given her such a nice birthday gift? If no, then please do not give her the ring in May.

Proving herself that she deserves to be married to you is going to take a lot longer than May. By all means do what you normally would do for her birthday but please not anything more.

The more you post the more I’m scratching my head in what world your WW thought your M was over as justification for her A.

Please clarify something. Did your WW say she thought your M was over, which opened the door in her mind to cheat, then AP happened to come along? Or, AP came along and WW wanted to cheat, so she convinced herself that the M was over?

After I proposed to my wife in Rome more than a decade ago, I took her there for the first time. We just went back again this past October.

Well, the AP took her to a parking garage, so there's that.

Happy birthday. Hope you and Mom have a nice day celebrating.

The more you post the more I’m scratching my head in what world your WW thought your M was over as justification for her A.

Please clarify something. Did your WW say she thought your M was over, which opened the door in her mind to cheat, then AP happened to come along? Or, AP came along and WW wanted to cheat, so she convinced herself that the M was over?

Well I can’t claim it makes sense, but what she said was at the beginning of the pandemic she started to feel a gap growing between us—like we were just two people in a house raising kids. She began getting bored with the marriage and unhappy with me. Keep in mind, we travel often, so the pandemic stopped that for more than a year—so it was just us and the kids trapped in a house and I adapted to it better than her.

Then she met the AP almost 1.5 years later in Sept. 2021 and felt a spark early on. By early Dec., the spark was very significant and both clearly were interested in pushing the relationship further. So she spent all of Dec. falling for him and feeling her dislike for me—all of this without my knowledge (she was just telling her family and friends, not me).

So when she looks back at how she felt on Dec., she thought the marriage could be over. She had convinced herself that she was unhappy with me and she felt this spark with another man. She then justified it by thinking she needed to have sex with the guy to see if she still had a sexual fire inside her. She acknowledges it was entirely selfish, but justified it by thinking the marriage could be over if she was right and found a sexual spark but nothing with me.

The early days went well through early Feb.—but starting in Jan, she was sex bombing me and enjoying it. So she was enjoying sex with me and AP and wasn’t sure what that meant. The stimulation of the affair was making sex in general appealing for her. By mid-Feb. she knew there was no future with AP and knew she wanted a life with me, but felt more free sexually with him and didn’t want to stop the affair.

So my take, if the AP didn’t come along and seduce her, she likely never has an affair, but also likely lives out an unhappy life never verbalizing to me she was unhappy. So if any positive comes from the affair it’s that I’m going to demand more open communication from her, which would benefit both of us.

The bigger problem for me is that she has no moral center—she just didn’t give a fuck about her commitment to me and our children. As I’ve mentioned, I think if she is able to change, be more open, emotionally and physically with me, I can forgive the sex. It’s just hard for me to forgive the deception, but I suppose I’ll get there if she communicates with me more. But her lack of moral compass is a hard one—and it’s going to be hard to see that change as well.

Lastly, as for the ring, it’s way beyond what I would get her for a gift—so you’re right, it doesn’t need to be tied to any day other than the day I want to recommit to her, whenever that is.

Well, the AP took her to a parking garage, so there's that.

LOL.

Happy birthday. Hope you and Mom have a nice day celebrating.

Thank you!

Dr. S.

At a minimum, I decided to at least wait until her birthday at the end of May before doing anything with the ring, so that will give me another month to evaluate her progress. If she’s still not there, I can wait longer—I need to try to evaluate her change objectively.

If by the end of May you mean May of 2024, 2025, 2026, or 2027 I completely agree with you, but only if she’s repeatedly and tirelessly shown you she’s worthy of being offered R. She hasn’t yet, IMO. Anything else is far too soon and reeks of the Pick Me Dance. Don’t. Do. It.

The bigger problem for me is that she has no moral center—she just didn’t give a fuck about her commitment to me and our children.

Assuming your narrative is more or less on point -- and there is every reason to believe it is -- then what you see is the natural behavior of a person with low character and weak moral core responding to a period of moderate stress. Given your frequent travel, I'm assuming you are a family of at least comfortable upper-middle class status, meaning being "trapped" during covid meant, for her, living in a comfortable home with the ability to buy groceries via insta-cart, order things from Amazon and other online sources, etc. Maybe not pampered and spoiled with lavish travel and spa time, etc., but way more comfortable than 95% of the rest of the world.

For her, that was enough to make her feel the "marriage was over" and to decide that the proper response is to fuck a scumbag cop, clearly a serial philanderer, while lying to you and sneaking around in breach of her marriage. Consider that carefully as you consider whether to R. At some point the two of you will be old and one of you will likely need to care for the other. If it's you who is frail, and she needs to be the caregiver, does she have your back? Does she have the core strength to do what needs to be done?

Giving her a ring like that now, or really any time in the near future like before 2024, is just another way to do the pick me dance. What she did wasn't a one night stand. As others have said she has low character and is clearly very selfish and immature. She still hasn't demonstrated any improvements in those areas and frankly hasn't even had much time to do so. You need to slow waaaaay down and stop driving the r train. She needs to do it and if she cannot, you need to know that.

Happy Birthday !!
Enjoy yourself !

Happy bday and enjoy Italy. Brother I get the feeling you're somewhat trying to force yourself to R or at least fast-track it by getting her this expensive gift, I suggest you slow down and let her do the necessary heavylifting to restore the M after her huge betrayal, like others mentioned this is not the time for gifts, not now, not in May and maybe not even next year, but again your call.

OTOH you're apparently convinced this was "just a physical A", I wouldn't be so sure, she admitted she felt a "spark" for him (this often means "feelings"), decided to betray you, then proceeded to humilliate you with her family in a clear effort that she was seriously considering leaving you for him, maybe this time the OM didn't have enough resources for her lifestyle, maybe she realized OM wasn't leaving his wife, again there could be many different reasons but the fact is she still continued the A and betraying you, what if she gets bored again down the road or you don't travel enough for her and/or a better candidate AP comes along ?, in fact, If I was in your shoes (I would have D) and decided to give her the gift of R, I would not even travel with her for at least a couple of years (of course this means she doesn't travel either unless it's absolutely necessary and not for leisure) just to test her resolve and commitment without a lavish lifestyle, not an uncomfortable one but certainly way less comfortable than it used to be prior to the A, another consequence for her huge betrayal.

To me the excuse that she was "bored" at home during the pandemic as one of the reasons for the A seems childish at best, this is a grown married woman with children and responsibilities, not a teenage brat in junior high, is this the type of partner you want to rely on and be by your side if you ever get sick and she has to step up to the plate and care for you ? I hope not, again, her betrayal was huge, the path to a successful R is typically very slow, painful, with lots of triggers, mindmovies and a rollercoaster of emotions through out and of course with NO guarantees.

If by the end of May you mean May of 2024, 2025, 2026, or 2027 I completely agree with you, but only if she’s repeatedly and tirelessly shown you she’s worthy of being offered R. She hasn’t yet, IMO. Anything else is far too soon and reeks of the Pick Me Dance. Don’t. Do. It.

There has been a lot of reference to the Pick Me Dance, so I’ll address it. She has already "picked me"—that’s not the issue. Honestly, the primary issue is to know whether she’s picked me for the rest of her life or just until it gets hard again.

So right now she feels uneasy as to whether or not I’ll pick her, and I agree, giving the ring to her now may make her feel she’s been forgiven way too quick.

The most telling comment you have made since the beginning is that she’s going insane looking after the children. What the hell. She’s their mother. It does not matter whether you are there or not she supposed to have their best interest at heart. I don’t know how to say this in a nice way so I’m just going to say it. She’s about as deep as a mud puddle. She might be fun. She might be pretty. So? At some point all of that is gone. How dedicated to you was she if she was cheating not too long after a nice trip TO ITA!Y!

Some people just don’t have the capacity for deep abiding love. You sound as if you do. So far, from what you have written, she doesn’t. She sounds whiney. Not a pretty picture.

Two things you need to keep in mind. You can’t make someone love you. And number two, you can’t change another person. In fact by the age of 18 all of us have had our personalities pretty well stamped.

Assuming your narrative is more or less on point -- and there is every reason to believe it is -- then what you see is the natural behavior of a person with low character and weak moral core responding to a period of moderate stress. Given your frequent travel, I'm assuming you are a family of at least comfortable upper-middle class status, meaning being "trapped" during covid meant, for her, living in a comfortable home with the ability to buy groceries via insta-cart, order things from Amazon and other online sources, etc. Maybe not pampered and spoiled with lavish travel and spa time, etc., but way more comfortable than 95% of the rest of the world.

For her, that was enough to make her feel the "marriage was over" and to decide that the proper response is to fuck a scumbag cop, clearly a serial philanderer, while lying to you and sneaking around in breach of her marriage. Consider that carefully as you consider whether to R. At some point the two of you will be old and one of you will likely need to care for the other. If it's you who is frail, and she needs to be the caregiver, does she have your back? Does she have the core strength to do what needs to be done?

This is spot on. Great post and I agree with you entirely.

I don’t know if she has the core strength to change, but I do know she can’t do it alone. The issue here wasn’t her various addictions—those are bad for sure—the issue was her shutting me out and embracing these addictions in the shadows. For me to believe we have a future, I need to see her recommit to me with complete transparency.

OTOH you're apparently convinced this was "just a physical A", I wouldn't be so sure, she admitted she felt a "spark" for him (this often means "feelings"), decided to betray you, then proceeded to humilliate you with her family in a clear effort that she was seriously considering leaving you for him, maybe this time the OM didn't have enough resources for her lifestyle, maybe she realized OM wasn't leaving his wife, again there could be many different reasons but the fact is she still continued the A and betraying you, what if she gets bored again down the road or you don't travel enough for her and/or a better candidate AP comes along.

That’s a good point. Certainty she was open to being swept away, so a broke scumbag cop uninterested in leaving his wife wasn’t a candidate to run off with her, but certainly there’s another guy out there who could have stolen her heart as she was clearly willing to give it away.

That’s a hard fact I have to deal with. The question is will she ever be open to another affair again. I need to feel confident she’s not.

The most telling comment you have made since the beginning is that she’s going insane looking after the children. What the hell. She’s their mother. It does not matter whether you are there or not she supposed to have their best interest at heart. I don’t know how to say this in a nice way so I’m just going to say it. She’s about as deep as a mud puddle. She might be fun. She might be pretty. So? At some point all of that is gone. How dedicated to you was she if she was cheating not too long after a nice trip TO ITA!Y!

So with regard to the children, she has loved the time with them, so I don’t want to misrepresent this. But she’s a very anxious person, especially when I’m not home—she’s very dependent on having me in the house. So with me gone, dealing with my rollercoaster of emotions, the kids fighting all the time and her not sleeping, it’s overwhelming for her. All things considered, she’s probably handling it relatively well lol.

I do agree with you on her depth—she isn’t a deep person; she’s very simple. She loves her kids and family and that’s about it. She has no passions or hobbies really. Quite frankly, the AP is a moron too—it’s one thing I’ve noticed talking with the OBS: she’s really thoughtful and smart. It’s not a coincidence that our spouses hooked up. They’re both very similar and self-destructive.

And yea, her beginning the affair less than two months after our great trip to Italy is scary—no argument from me there.