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she’s apparently making a special meal for tomorrow when I get home for my birthday (she doesn’t cook)

Which is exactly the wrong thing for her to be doing. Any fool can get cookbooks or YouTube and, with a single concerted effort, put together a spectacular meal. The grand gesture, that's not R. In fact it's a WS cliche, acting as if a grand gesture equates to healing. In reality it's just another form of wayward behavior.

R would be devoting herself for years to learning to cook well, then consistently and humbly making your dinner every day for the rest of your life.

Is she a long distance runner? Nothing in your description of her suggests that she is.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:48 PM, Tuesday, April 12th]

DR.

Why do you think you aren't in the pick me dance? (You seem to think unlike other BH, you aren't doing the pick me dance.) Maybe try to see how you are doing that and instead focus on how you are fighting for yourself in the marriage. What are you doing for the DR. and what does he need? Things like mentioning how you having her around your family was something you did to her as punishment or isolating. That shows your mind set is on sheltering her and healing her. You can't heal her, she has to do that. You seem to ignore your pain and see it as sacrificing for the family.

Another thing I will point out. You said you were most mad when you were propositioned often and turned them away. I see this in 1 of 2 ways.

1: You are mad because you see how she was approached and you are mad because you so easily turned them down even when you are in another country post discovery of her cheating. You are feeling the injustice I mentioned. That is the tip of the iceberg. Just wait, you are going to really get mad later. Wait until you start to hate that hotel because every time you go there, you can't help but think about that being the last time you thought you 2 were happy together and she was just trying to find reasons to leave/betray you. But the ease of being moral shows you how little morals your wife has.

2: You are mad because you see your worth. You feel your wife is not as special as you are now. You get upset because you feel her devaluing's true impacts. Then you see you could replace her so she should be more motivated or scared and she isn't. You see how she has changed you and you feel some shame at the advances and some anger.

It could be either one or something else.

Last thing, I see you keep talking about getting over the sex portion so quickly. That is unheard of unless someone was in the life, had been poly, or cheated themselves. Is that the case? Because usually people would be really caught up on the sex. Yet you seem to keep wanting to forgive it first and quickly. Why is that the part you just shrug and move on from? There is more to that. If you bring up the cuck conversation, I think you are trying to deflect for her. Why really are you so quick to forgive the sex?

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 3:36 PM, Wednesday, April 13th]

I recommend that when you get back from Italy you sit down with her for a conversation. Let her know that it’s not your job right now to promote R - this is all on her. If, over time, she convinces you that she is doing the work towards R, and the work she needs to fix all of her issues, you will then consider joining her in the R bus.

I had this conversation with her last night actually—so I agree with you. And I plan to reinforce it when I get home.

People can and do change. WSes who do the necessary work become good partners. R is possible.

The questions we each have to answer include, 'What do I want? What's possible for me? What's my best option?'

It's very possible that Mrsstrangelove has chosen the Dr. It's very possible she has chosen him forever, or for the moment, or out of love and desire for the Dr, or for love and desire for the lifestyle, or ....

Only time will tell. Drstrangelove is best positioned to know his W.

Any one of us who thinks they know what's in her mind is kidding themself.

*****

Having said that, the idea of giving any gift, much less an extravagant one, much less actually buying such a gift, at this point smacks very much of the pick-me dance.

If you want to find out if your W has chosen you or the lifestyle she has with you, the last thing to do is to lavish gifts on her. That seems obvious - and yet you purchased an extravagant ring for her. I have some trouble accepting your assurance that you're not trying to win your W back. You're the prize; she isn't.

IDK ... my W's birthday was 2 weeks after d-day. I bought her some chap-stik as a gift. 3 tubes. The main reason was that it was her b'day, of course, but I chose Chap-stik because I knew she was going to buy the stuff for herself anyway. The first gift I bought her was for her b'day 4 years out - and that was a set of dance lessons that I wanted.

I understand you want to R. You have to understand R may not be best for your and may not be possible. You need to give up trying to control the outcome as soon as you can - all such attempts are futile.

I know I'm projecting, but I really have a hard time understanding giving a gift of any sort this close to your d-day.

*****

It's possible that you're jumping to R'ed behavior because you're dodging the pain that comes with being betrayed - the anger, grief, fear, shame. You've said you want to get through this quickly, after all.

The quickest way through this is to process the pain out of your body, and that requires you to feel the pain, not dodge it.

Doing your work gives you the opportunity to observe your W and test her to see if she's a good candidate for R. Will she support you emotionally through your healing? Will she learn to listen to you talk about your thoughts and feelings without getting defensive? Will she use what she hears from you as support for her changing from cheater to good partner?

There's no quick way to heal. R is even slower. Neither will work unless you give them both the time they need. Believe me, R takes 1000s of trust-building actions, and it takes years to accomplish that much.

Slow down. Let the process work. What will happen will happen, and you can't control anything or anyone but yourself.

Good post and I agree entirely. Thank you.

Can your mind ever rest?

Unclear as thus far I cannot.

Can you kiss her the same way?

Yes.

can you let her out of your sight, can you travel by yourself and feel comfortable?

Yes, I’ve been in Italy for a week and have no concerns with her faithfulness.

Will you even like her, let alone love her after she has shown you what she is capable of?

Yes, I still very much love her and care for her.

It's really about you before we get to her. And then, if you can check all of those boxes positively, she has to be able to absolutely reform herself and behave so much better than just your average spouse, because she was so much worse in her behaviors.

Agreed, I’m more worried about what she wants. I feel strongly she still wants me, but I accept the possibility she no longer loves me. That’s what I’m looking for.

Your mind is being clouded by sex bombing snd all the dopamine hits that come with it. You’re getting great sex now from a wife who hated having sex with you, wasn’t attracted to you, and didn’t like or respect you as a person.

I haven’t had sex with her in more than a week (I’m in Italy), but I understand your point.

She went from badmouthing me and being repulsed to my touch to now loving me physically and emotionally. I agree it’s suspect, but I feel like you’re all looking through this from the same lens—it ignores that she became physically attracted to me during the affair (lol). I think a big part of her issues are sexual repression from events in her past.

Ultimately, the purchase of the ring was stupid and I agree it’s "hopium"—but I arrived at that independently. And the more I’ve thought about it, the more I think the earliest I’d give it to her is next year. My thinking now is to try to give her the rest of 2022 to prove she is committed to me.

One day at a time though—and tomorrow is a big day as we haven’t seen each other in a week.

You have your eyes open. That’s good.

The one tendency I would change in you if I was able too would be patience. You seem like you want to rush things. Get this past you. It can’t be done. At least not if you want to create a NEW lasting relationship.

If you were shot by a gun in the heart and needed open heart surgery, would you bounce right back after they got you off the table? No. You’d need months of recovery. And physical therapy.

This is what has been done to you emotionally. And it’s not just the bullet in the heart from the cheating. It’s your legs cut off from under you from her badmouthing you behind your back, and your eyes blinded from her lying.

This is what you must prepare yourself for. It’s the fact that this will take years and the best you will get is a new relationship, not the old one. But being able to function as a partner and accept her again as yours is now a lifelong pursuit. It could happen. It will never be 100% satisfying but it can still be very good.

But don’t rush it. Let it happen slowly. Right not it’s not even at a turtles pace. It’s snail time at best.

So live your life and let the rest happen as it happens. You can’t make her fix this. She has to have it in her heart to do it. So just wait and see.

Thank you for this post. I’m aware I’m moving too fast and I’m consciously trying to slow down. My wife has a lot of work to do and she knows it—I just hate being in the passive role. I will need to get used to it.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:34 PM, Tuesday, April 12th]

Last thing, I see you keep talking about getting over the sex portion so quickly. That is unheard of unless someone was in the life, had been poly, or cheated themselves. Is that the case? Because usually people would be really caught up on the sex. Yet you seem to keep wanting to forgive it first and quickly. Why is that the part you just shrug and move on from? There is more to that. If you bring up the cuck conversation, I think you are trying to deflect for her. Why really are you so quick to forgive the sex?

This is hard to explain and it’s the topic I need to dig into with her next probably. It’s not that I don’t care—I do—it’s just that on the list of things making me angry, it’s not at the top.

As I mentioned, I see this affair as her rediscovering herself sexually on a path to validate her self-worth. Her dressing sexier and pushing sexual boundaries was her desperately trying to figure out who the hell she was. I think the answer is a very confused woman with deep-seated issues she needs to resolve in IC.

My point about the sex is I feel strongly that I can get over it in time. I think it’s sad that she stole our intimacy by giving the most private part of herself to another man—but I think that’s sad more through a lens of (lack of) love toward me, not the sex.

As for the cuck thing, that’s hard to sort through still, so I don’t have a good answer, but I will say envisioning her as a slut is a turn on for me—and in our sex bombing, that’s exactly the role she’s playing: my slut—and I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t enjoyable. I also accept it’s twisted and emotionally I may be playing with fire. But again, it’s hard for me to sort through it right now.

My priority is identifying that she loves me and is recommitting to me—everything else is secondary right now.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:43 PM, Friday, May 27th]

Can your mind ever rest?

Unclear as thus far I cannot.

Can you kiss her the same way?

Yes.

can you let her out of your sight, can you travel by yourself and feel comfortable?

Yes, I’ve been in Italy for a week and have no concerns with her faithfulness.

Will you even like her, let alone love her after she has shown you what she is capable of?

Yes, I still very much love her and care for her.

It's really about you before we get to her. And then, if you can check all of those boxes positively, she has to be able to absolutely reform herself and behave so much better than just your average spouse, because she was so much worse in her behaviors.

Agreed, I’m more worried about what she wants. I feel strongly she still wants me, but I accept the possibility she no longer loves me. That’s what I’m looking for.

I'll try not to belabor this, because I think everybody is making the same point to you: You don't really know the answers to these questions yet.

Do you watch pro basketball? One of the most devastating injuries is for a player to rupture their Achilles tendon. All the players think they will come back the same from it, and nobody ever does. There have been a few "success stories", but the vast majority are a shadow of their former self, and even in the very few success stories, the athletes always lose something from what they were, and have to learn how to live with the new reality after this injury. The pain never goes away completely either.

Dude, you just blew your Achilles tendon! Actually, your wife cut it. You're answering all these questions in the affirmative, but in my opinion, you haven't even gotten to the surgery stage yet. All you really know is you got hurt bad. You don't know how you will come back or how you will feel in 6 months, a year, 2 years, just like with the players, the rehab process is long, grueling, and there are always setbacks.

Right now you aren't worried about your wife cheating while you are traveling, because she is totally busted and in damage control mode, staying in touch with you, trying to hang on to what she squandered. That will not be your reality forever.

Wait about a year when she is tired of your feelings about her fucking the cop. Or in 2-3 years. See if you trust her so fully then when she is out of your sight and you don't know her whereabouts for hours at a time.

And honestly, it would be foolish to ever trust her the same way you did prior. Just like if you punched her in the face, she would always know that no matter how sorry you are, or how much therapy you go through, you are somebody who was able to punch his wife in the face. That realization never goes away.

I guess what everyone is saying is slow down brother. You can't make this happen.

And with regard to the possibility she no longer loves you, what does that mean to all the answers you wrote just above that one? Slow down, process, don't try to recapture what you thought you had. Rushing the process is a mistake, and a lot of us have made it, and we have all seen it.

P.S. Read the user "Legatus" threads.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 12:56 AM, Wednesday, April 13th]

Doc,

You said "My priority is identifying that she loves me and is recommitting to me—everything else is secondary right now."

This has nothing to do with love. Love is NOT enough. It never has been and it never will be.

In our culture, many of us idealize love. We see it as some lofty cure-all for all of life’s problems. Our movies and our stories and our history all celebrate it as life’s ultimate goal, the final solution for all of our pain and struggle. And because we idealize love, we overestimate it. As a result, our relationships pay a price.

When we believe that "all we need is love," then like Lennon, we’re more likely to ignore fundamental values such as respect, humility, and commitment towards the people we care about. After all, if love solves everything, then why bother with all the other stuff—all of the hard stuff?

But if, like Reznor, we believe that "love is not enough," then we understand that healthy relationships require more than pure emotion or lofty passions. We understand that there are things more important in our lives and our relationships than simply being in love. And the success of our relationships hinges on these deeper and more important values.

Doc, I'm sure she loves you so you don't need to identify whether she loves you or not.

Sadly, many spouses love their partners, but aren't in love with them.

Many spouses love their partners, but don't like them, don't respect them etc.

Additionally, many love people who aren't good for them as love is "funny" that way.

This isn't about love.

This is about being all in as a couple, which she wasn't based on on words, deeds and actions. She betrayed with what she said to her mother and sister and she betrayed by spreading her legs for that man.

We all get it, we know you feel a bit guilty and you're trying to work on things from your end too. Newsflash, all marriages aren't perfect. None of us is perfect. While you weren't perfect, neither was she but you didn't run off and have sex with another lady and while things weren't perfect you didn't disparage her to your family and friends the way she did to you.

She had lots of options to deal with things, to deal with the way she was feeling yet she chose incredibly destructive options. I'm glad you're both well off, money isn't an impediment to counseling yet she still chose to go nuclear on your marriage.

THIS marriage is dead and gone. If both of you are able to work through things and it will take at least 2 to 5 years (not months or another year), then the two of you can decide on another marriage.

There is nothing left to save of this marriage due to what she did. It's been blasted to smithereens. There isn't enough glue and duct tape to put this marriage back together and it's FAR too soon to tell if the two of you can reconcile.

Years from now the two of you will begin to know whether the two of you may progress forward with a marriage in the right way, for the right reasons.

You were 50% responsible for issues in the marriage and she was also 50% responsible for issues in the marriage.

She was 100% responsible for cheating. NONE of that is on you in any way, shape or form.

She had many options to deal with what she was feeling and going through yet she chose to disparage you and to fvck another man.

She needs to lead and drive this reconciliation, not you.

Your goal shouldn't be to just save your marriage, to remain married to her.

The two of you need to regroup completely and build things up from the ground up. This is a total rehab. You're not just tearing it down to the studs, you're tearing them down and tearing up the foundation and starting completely over from scratch.

Why? You NEED a new foundation from which to begin to heal and come together. Your old foundation is beyond repair, it's beyond totaled.

Yes, you're technically still married, but only on paper with what she intentionally chose to do to your marriage and to you.

Love is a verb, it requires action and her actions were to put you down to others and to spread her legs for another man.

She did NOT flip on a dime. You have to be able to see clearly past her love bombing.

She's acting this way not for you, but for her. She's afraid though not necessarily of losing her marriage.

Neither of you should want the status quo, the old status quo.

Neither of you are able to see things clearly just yet. Neither of you is on a good foundation, you're both standing on quick sand.

This is a process and it's a LONG one as in many years long.

And love has nothing to do with it.

Your wife is trying. That counts for something.

As I said it’s not going to be a perfectly straight line to reconciliation. And I think the dinner idea is very sweet.

I know it’s not a cure or fix gut what occurred. But it points in the right direction that she’s willing to try and show you matter to her.

Time will tell as you stated. But she’s doing something. Many cheaters do nothing.

Dr - I support your goal to R. What I don’t support is your process. You’re going about it the wrong way. And, by going about this the wrong way you’re actually jeopardizing R, not improving your chances for R. You don’t see this though.

And, the litmus test and tell that you’re going about this process the wrong way is your purchase of the ring. That says it all. Your mindset is incorrect. The next tell is that you’re caught up in your sexual fantasy world. Again, going about this the wrong way and jeopardizing R.

Your WW knows all of this snd is obviously very smart- she knows how to do this well. She’s so smart and skillful that you believe what you’re seeing snd feeling is real snd what all of these experts are telling you is not.

The two of you need to regroup completely and build things up from the ground up. This is a total rehab.

That’s what we’re doing. We had two great conversations last night—one for nearly an hour over the phone and another a text exchange for 30 or so minutes before bed.

The first conversation focused on the conflict of our families. For her, she wants to do at least one trip with just us and the kids a year (when we do family trips, they often involve some of my family as well). I thought her request was very reasonable.

My request with her family was more complicated. I’m currently carrying a lot of anger for her parents and I’m not ready to be around them yet. She understood entirely and agreed with me. She has her own issues to work out with them, so it’s going to be a challenge for both of us. She knows she has to work on it because they’re getting older and she doesn’t want to squander time with them in their twilight years, but she made her commitment to me over them very clear, and that was a big step for her.

Even more, it made me feel better getting it off my chest. Her parents had texted me the day before to wish me a happy birthday—I ignored the text. After talking with my wife though, I decided to respond with a simple thank you. I know it’s a small thing, but again, it felt like progress.

We then had a deeper exchange over text later on, one I initiated. It covered a lot, but I dug in more on her sexual feelings for prior, during and after the affair. I then dig in on her feelings toward me at those stages as well. Her honesty impressed me. She’s really trying to tear down her old self and rebuild. She feels like she has been consumed with negativity in a variety of ways—and she thinks the ugliness of the affair and her AP was a purposefully (subconsciously) destructive choice on her part.

She noted that this week away from her, while hard, really helped put the affair in her rear view mirror and she is ready to do everything she can to prove she still wants and deserves to be my partner.

It’s only words, but there’s a level of vulnerability and honesty in her words that is very refreshing.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:48 PM, Friday, May 27th]

Doc, you wrote:

As I mentioned, I see this affair as her rediscovering herself sexually on a path to validate her self-worth. Her dressing sexier and pushing sexual boundaries was her desperately trying to figure out who the hell she was. I think the answer is a very confused woman with deep seeded issues she needs to resolve in IC.

I believe you are a kind, compassionate and intelligent fellow. With all due respect, I also believe you are being naive. You are explaining away her bad decisions and behavior as some sort of a soul-searching journey as she meanders through life, a victim of her own issues. We all need validation to some degree, however most of us choose not to betray our spouses to obtain it.

I truly hope you can achieve meaningful reconciliation and your wife becomes a better person. However, I had an attitude similar to your own in rationalizing the betrayal and my XWW's culpability. I was thanked several years later after D-day 2 by my wife telling me I went "too easy" on her the first time.

I do wish you the best...

I’m waiting to board my plane back from Italy and I decided to email my wife. I thought I’d share the note with all of you as well:

**

I left for Italy not knowing how I’d feel about you—or us—when I returned. I recall wondering if I’d learn anything about us at all. Truthfully, I don’t think I did.

I do think I learned a bit about myself. For one, I’m a better person than I give myself credit for. You’ve called me overly critical of you at times—a perfectionist—and I’ve never argued against the label. But I realized this trip how much harder I am on myself.

I have so many demons that I’m constantly exorcising; largely from my parents—flaws I see in them that I also see in myself. I’ve become obsessed with those flaws over the last several years, especially since having children. It’s been a constant fight to improve and evolve as I view it as the only thing of real value I can leave for them and my eventual/hopeful grand children.

I’m a good man; I recognize that. And I’m proud of the person they will learn from before they go out to face the world.

In the back of my mind over the last month, I’ve occasionally thought about how I didn’t deserve what you did to me. I then laugh to myself with the advice I always give to others: "deserve has nothing to do with it."

All I can do is properly evaluate my value and what I want in life. And moving forward, I will.

I also recognize that I’ve been complacent. I had my wife, my children, my house and my job. Life was settled and routine. I was shutting everything else out as I felt it wasn’t needed. And perhaps individually, all the things, people and opportunities I passed on were supplemental; but as a collective, their the mosaic of life I wasn’t letting in.

With my mom this trip I see her life as completely crazy, but also so much more balanced. She surrounds herself daily with friends and loved ones from around the world—and she never stops, it’s her passion.

The trip was a blur of travel and different people—every meal with someone else—and I saw all of them from a new perspective. Everyone is just trying to make it through life as best they can. Their children grow up, their jobs change, their spouses leave them or pass away—but life doesn’t stop.

I realized my identify isn’t any of those core tenets I thought it was (kids, wife, job, house)—those are all just layers on top. I enjoy being with you and our life together, but I also now genuinely know I’ll be ok without you if it comes to that. And I know you’ll be just fine as well.

My mom has been going to Italy for her "January trip" my entire adult life—I wonder why this year I decided to go with her. I wonder if I was driving to this epiphany subconsciously without the madness of your affair. Maybe we both were.

"Apocalypse" is often used to describe a cataclysmic event. But that’s not it’s linguistic intention—it’s a revelation; a new beginning.

This trip was my apocalypse. I see the direction I am going and I see the life I want to live.

You have a lot a work ahead of you: to prove your value to both yourself and to me. I want you to be successful; I want you to join me for the rest of the journey; and I’ll give you every opportunity to do so.

Please don’t become complacent in our healing. Every day you need to prioritize our communication or you will fail before you begin.

I’m excited to board this plane—to see you and the kids. I’m excited to wake up tomorrow in my bed with a new perspective.

I’ll see you soon.

Love, X

An excellent email. I think the most important part was telling her that you’re prioritizing you, and that essentially if R doesn’t work out you’ll both be ok. That’s called letting go of the outcome.

I also recommend that you follow through on your comment that you’re going to be regaining your individuality and sense of self, not getting lost in the role of husband snd father. That means pursuing friends, hobbies, snd interests that do not include your family.

This will not only strengthen you but also message your WW that if she betrays you again and breaks boundaries no worries because you’re gone.

My apologies to everybody in advance. Grumpy former literature major moment #2 in this thread: It's "deep-seated". NOT "deep seeded". "Seated", as in a seated wood screw, where the head is deeply seated in a kerf or such in the wood and therefore is almost inside the wood, difficult to see and remove.

Long, heart-felt notes are an ultra-common phase in the pick-me dance program.

Whatever the content, they are generally absorbed by the cheater as weakness: "Here is how I feel", "This is what I am going to do", "This is what you are risking or have squandered".

She should come to you; you are going to her.

***

A much more powerful and effective course of action is to just go ahead and do what you are going to do.

Do you recall the notes she wrote you when she engaged in her tawdry affair? Me neither.

Let her be the one who observes and uses her energy deciphering the meaning of your movements. See if she makes the effort.

So many of us have written the long letter. Most of us did not have the time-tested advice you are getting. Some of us just decided to ignore it.

So many of us cringe at what we wrote when we look back.

Be different. Stop dancing for her.

What Faithfulman said, above. 100%

I wasn't going to post this, but to follow on Faithfulman:

We then had a deeper exchange over text later on, one I initiated.

Do you recognize the oxymoron and the paradox embedded in that statement?

Oxymoron: "deeper exchange over text". Nope. Text is the least deep medium of exchange possible. You cannot, under any circumstances have one. A "deeper exchange" occurs with spoken words, in physical proximity so facial gestures and such can be seen. Text is prophylaxis; a barrier to deeper exchange.

Paradox: "one I initiated". If she were remorseful, she would be initiating the deeper exchanges.

All part and parcel of pick-me dancing.