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Dr - I would say you took her to freaking Italy before the affair.
There is nothing you could have done more to spur her sexual desires then take her to your honey moon!
This is all about her trying to exert power in the relationship. Most women immediately turn to the thing they have the most control over, a guy's sex rations. If you aren't limiting her spending and still taking her on amazing vacations. Still having nights out, which you said before you did. You have stayed in decent shape and maintain yourself.
Everything she thinks is wrong is all about her not knowing how well she has it. I know the second you put yourself on the market again you will see she has to bid for your love. The bids will be high!
You are the prize here. That is why even the OBS kind of threw you a line. I am sure there are others. Your covid PJ time isn't what turned the bedroom icy. It was all about her little things that made her mad. Then she wanted to control those things, so she cuts back on sex time. Eventually that frustrates you, then you get used to the lowered sex time and stop engaging. Then both sides have reduced expectations. It is the problem with trying to punish the other person instead of talk to them in a relationship.

I appreciate the kind words. And you’re right—it wasn’t PJs during COVID. We’ve been discussing this throughout CT and it’s clear her resentment toward me began 15 years ago. Little things would bother her and she built up a wall in the bedroom. In retrospect, the most shocking part of our relationship is that I didn’t breakup with her 15 years ago.

But every day we were together made breaking up harder and I kept rolling with it. I see how absurd our relationship has been though. So now it’s on her to prove she can drop her wall in the bedroom. I’m enjoying her trying to do it—and if it falters, so be it.

We’ve been discussing this throughout CT and it’s clear her resentment toward me began 15 years ago

Let's say for the sake of the argument this isn't relationship history re-writing.

Let's say this is the only issue you have aside from the affair. 15 years of resentment.

Is staying married and working through that worth more than D?

This is one of the reasons I'm all for discussing M issues prior to A recovery completing. You might have nothing left to work with once the hysterical bonding wears off.

Let's say for the sake of the argument this isn't relationship history re-writing.

Let's say this is the only issue you have aside from the affair. 15 years of resentment.

Is staying married and working through that worth more than D?

This is one of the reasons I'm all for discussing M issues prior to A recovery completing. You might have nothing left to work with once the hysterical bonding wears off.

You’re right. I feel like I’ve been living a lie my entire relationship. It’s crazy to me how she just internalized her anger all these years—she’s being open now and every day she’s citing a new thing that she recalls being upset about. And as we discuss them, it’s clear she was wrong to be upset about all of them, let alone not communicating them to me.

My favorite issue was last night saying she was mad I made her sign a prenup—at the time she expressed no concerns. And the irony now is how hilarious her position was considering what she did.

But I’m now reliving a lifetime of past anger never shared and it’s incredibly frustrating.

The old relationship is gone, it’s just a matter if she can commit to being open and honest going forward and stop bottling everything up. If she can’t, I’ll enjoy the HB and move on. If she can, I think it’s the best outcome for me.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 10:17 PM, Monday, April 18th]

I have a different take on this.

I don't think she was wrong to be upset - one feels what one feels. What was 'wrong' was not realizing her resentment was her issue, not yours, and not your M's. IC is the best way to deal with that issue.

The old 'M issues', IMO, should be ignored unless they resurface.

I say that because the resentments are based on the resenters pre-A view of M in general and their own M in particular. An important issue will resurface, and that's when it can be resolved.

You spent too much time in PJs in your W's opinion? She can decide to give up her resentment, and she can decide to raise the issue the next day you hang out in PJs too long for her sensibility. She didn't like signing the pre-nup and didn't say so before she signed? Both of those are in the past, and the only thing that your W can do about them is change her thoughts and feelings about them. That's your W's individual task to complete. It's not something you can do anything about, and it's not something that needs discussion in MC.

If she doesn't like the pre-nup, she's free to ask you to tear it up, though I hope you'd refuse at this point. If she wants you dressed by 6 AM, she's free to bring it up and negotiate something that you'll both be OK with.

Her past resentments, though, are hers to deal with. If she keeps bringing them up, I'd suspect she'd be blameshifting, and that's a red flag in R.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:24 PM, Tuesday, April 19th]

If this has been discussed before I apologize but I haven’t had time to read everything.

If you decide to tell his wife do not tell your wife. If she is still lying she could tell AP and he would start preparing his wife, telling her that your wife kept coming on to him and she is crazy. You are crazy. He rebuffed all of your wife’s advances. She is lying and on and on.

Best of luck to you on this terrible journey

If she doesn't like the pre-nup, she's free to ask you to tear it up, though I hope you'd refuse at this point.

Her issue isn’t with the prenup existing, it’s that I asked her to sign one—she took it as an indication I wasn’t sure about our future.

I explained that no one marries expecting to divorce, yet more than 50% do, so it would be the height of arrogance to assume we’re better than those people. She agrees—and agreed at the time—she just claims to have carried a lot of resentment over it at the time and other issues built on top of it.

The core issue though has been her inability to express her issues/anger. The problem though is when she does, I often respond, like I would have with the prenup. I give a logical answer and she feels belittled, like her opinion is invalid. I need to better navigate that issue. I’m not opposed to conflict; most who know me might argue I welcome it lol. But she’s so opposed to even minor conflict it becomes an issue for us to have what I would deem mild-mannered discussions.

It’s hard for me now though because I used to see her "anger" as minor and meaningless. We’d have a small disagreement and then move on—but the truth is I moved on and she harbored these minor issues for long periods of time. So now anytime she seems angered/upset, I’m left to realize there could be a bigger issue. It’s happened on average once a day this last month where I’ve felt she got upset or defensive on something and she was out of line to have that emotional response—in the past, I’d just love on, but now I’m thinking that she’s legitimately angry and not expressing it entirely.

Her past resentments, though, are hers to deal with. If she keeps bringing them up, I'd suspect she'd be blameshifting, and that's a red flag in R.

How do I tell the difference between blameshifting and her just trying to be open and honest?

I feel like I see a bit of both at times and reacting is difficult. I want to call out blameshifting while also allowing for her to feel she can open up honestly.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:45 PM, Tuesday, April 19th]

If you decide to tell his wife do not tell your wife.

Ultimately, my wife told the OBS. The OBS and I had multiple hours of conversation that followed.

Both the OBS and I are confident that the two of them aren’t in communication. Of note though, the OBS has not proceeded to reconcile at this time, so she hasn’t dug in with him at all—she has all the facts from me and initially felt he was lying, so she cut him off.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 9:34 PM, Friday, May 27th]

All of these issues is something that she first needs to navigate through IC, and you as well through your IC. You both individually need to learn how to communicate better. Since you’re already in MC, figuring it here as well is also critical.

How do I tell the difference between blameshifting and her just trying to be open and honest?

I feel like I see a bit of both at times and reacting is difficult. I want to call out blameshifting while also allowing for her to feel she can open up honestly.

I expect that everything we do comes from mixed motives, so talking about resentments probably is both sharing and blameshifting.

I asked, as in:

Me: What were you thinking and feeling when you did that?
She: answers
Me: Do you still think/feel that? - or - what do you think/feel about your thinking that the time?

I didn't need a poly, because I pretty quickly improved my bullshit awareness - having gone through 2 polygraphs for employment, I think human beings are better lie detectors than machines. Besides, my real questions couldn't be answered with 'yes' or 'no'.

The 2nd level question (what do you think now?) often got an 'I'm ashamed' answer, but I kept digging for her real thoughts/feelings about the content. I hope that's clear.

I expect that everything we do comes from mixed motives, so talking about resentments probably is both sharing and blameshifting.

I asked, as in:

Me: What were you thinking and feeling when you did that?
She: answers
Me: Do you still think/feel that? - or - what do you think/feel about your thinking that the time?

I didn't need a poly, because I pretty quickly improved my bullshit awareness - having gone through 2 polygraphs for employment, I think human beings are better lie detectors than machines. Besides, my real questions couldn't be answered with 'yes' or 'no'.

The 2nd level question (what do you think now?) often got an 'I'm ashamed' answer, but I kept digging for her real thoughts/feelings about the content. I hope that's clear.

I relate to that. I keep trying to dive into the next layer. She’ll say she feels horrible for hurting me, risking her family, and how she feels ashamed at the aftermath to all the people who know (me and some of our families).

I keep asking her to dig further though and it’s hard for her. I think she needs to do it in her own head, with her IC perhaps, before bringing it to me in a conversation.

Every day she appears (largely) more devastated. The weight of her actions keep pulling her further down and with distance from them, she’s finding it harder to understand.

Separately, the OBS reached out again today—she finally had a (six hour) talk with the AP to hear his side of things. She wants to meet again, though coincidently, our sons will be at a shared little league practice tonight, so I’ll see her then. She noted that virtually all of the AP’s story was the same as what I shared, with some minor discrepancies, so I’m interested to hear what those are.

If you share those discrepancies with your WW I recommend you remind her that honesty is way above defensiveness in importance when responding. If they are minor things she should know that you value truthfulness even if the answers show her in a worse light.

That’s what the building and healing process requires. I hope you get it.

"I'm going to meet OBS - if even a little bit of the stories don't match and I confirm it's from your side these will be the last words I ever say to you without legal paperwork in my hand" is a good way to get any lingering things out.

"I'm going to meet OBS - if even a little bit of the stories don't match and I confirm it's from your side these will be the last words I ever say to you without legal paperwork in my hand" is a good way to get any lingering things out.

That’s what I said before I met her the first time. She knows where I stand on this—no more info from anyone other than her is acceptable.

My wife is in a full nervous breakdown over me seeing her tonight though, trying not to show it. At first I thought it was because she’s worried about what I might learn—but honestly, I’m now thinking it might be because she’s nervous of OBS’s intentions with me (she doesn’t know OBS made a pass already).

I feel fine though. I have no intention of doing anything with OBS and have no issue letting my wife sweat about it.

I’m now thinking it might be because she’s nervous of OBS’s intentions with me

Tell your WW this is how you are going to feel randomly through out the rest of your marriage. If she wants to understand the whirlwind of emotions inside you, this feeling she has is as close as she will ever get.
Just a way for you to share with her how devastated you are.

Even if the discrepancies are major, your W may be telling the truth as she knows it.

The meaning of a communication is determined by the receiver. Sometimes the receiver's filters do very unexpected things. Your W and om may have very different views of an event without either of them lying.

Yeah ... that just makes it harder to know if one's WS is telling the truth or lying.

Even if the discrepancies are major, your W may be telling the truth as she knows it.

The discrepancies were VERY minor and in all cases my wife’s version made her/them look worse anyway, so I’m not too hung up on the version of events anymore—I’ve given the search for truth a tremendous amount of effort and I’m reasonably satisfied with the results.

It appears the OBS would like to maintain a friendship with me, though I’m not sure there’s much of a point. Talking with her just unproductively reminds me of the affair. I’m going to see her around and I’ll be cordial, but I feel like I’ve gotten everything I need now.

She seems fairly committed to separating with the AP and she’s already considering moving to a new town within the next year or two to put all the drama behind her.

It leaves me focused on my issues and my wife. I’m expecting a lot from her and I’m pushing every day for her to dig deeper.

It is weird to be largely returning to normal—I don’t feel normal. And she certainly doesn’t appear normal either. We’re two devastated people sharing a house and occasionally pretending things are ok.

The sad truth is just that I married a silly, frivolous girl who doesn’t understand consequence. There’s no evil plot to unfold—just idiocy.

This might seem off the wall but read it anyway.

Your wife might be one of those people who hold grudges. My mother did. In fact she had a friend from childhood who made a tacky remark one day and that was it. She wasn’t the only one my mother gave the silent treatment. My dad was often subjected to them. I don’t know if it is genetic or a power play but either way you don’t deserve it. Please make sure you don’t argue or try to be reasonable. If that is how she is you only have two choices, leave the room and stay gone for hours or divorce. Long silences are very manipulative.

I usually beat this drum because I know from personal and professional experiences that the person on the receiving end begins to believe they are the bad guy. You were and you aren’t anymore. 15 years is too long a sentence to serve.

Just a thought.
If their stories line up precisely, do you think that they may have collaborated to be on the same page or is too damning for her to make any difference?

Your wife might be one of those people who hold grudges.

It’s clear she weaponized all her anger and resentments toward me in the bedroom—how often she did that throughout our marriage is unknown, but I’ll take the over on any guess. I think it really took off these last few years during the pandemic, so with that so fresh is our minds, it’s difficult for either of us to recall specific moments when she had genuine desire for me sexually. Not because she wasn’t physically attracted to me, but because she built a wall designed to punish me.

I don’t think the affair was to punish me, but I do think it was the result of the wall she built—a byproduct she didn’t anticipate and I see.

Based on the incidents she’s raising, it’s clear some of her anger lasted years at a time—something hard for me to fathom—but it’s the result of never resolving ANY conflict in her life. Her issues go well passed our marital problems; she has issues with everyone in her life and she’s just now seeing the world through clear eyes.

She has an overwhelming amount of introspection ahead of her through IC. The days have been up and down, but I do feel like she’s trying and I do feel like she genuinely wants to spend her life with me. I also now feel clear on how absurd our relationship was—even though in my mind I thought we were relatively fine. But I now understand her much better, so there’s no way I’m going to allow my life to slip back into what it was before.

The major conflict I see on the horizon is her family—I may bring that up in the next CT to get started on peeling that onion.

Just a thought.
If their stories line up precisely, do you think that they may have collaborated to be on the same page or is too damning for her to make any difference?

The last time they spoke, they were corroborating her fake story (the one she gave to me in a panic). Two days later I broke her and she gave me the truth. And I went through it minute-by-minute, including having her write a lengthy testimony. I’m confident it’s the truth.

I armed the OBS with that version before her conversation with the AP, so he would try to give a sanitized version and she would push him—he didn’t deny anything and he was in hysterics, just like my wife was, so there’s just no way it’s all fake (it’s also too horrific to be a better version of anything).

Now, it’s certainly possible that there is more to the story that neither one volunteered, but even that is unlikely. I think what I’m likely missing is mean-spirited discussions between them—and I’m assuming that only because I saw the texts to her family and friends. But as for the nuts and bolts, I think I have the truth.

While that’s somewhat comforting, the truth is really awful, so it’s not much of a victory. I’ve read other posts on this site far worse, but for me, living with this woman who did what she did is beyond hurtful. It’s just knowing she’s capable of such disrespect to me—something I’d never have been capable of toward her.