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Hey Doc. Have a great trip. Hope you and your mom can enjoy yourselves.

I still think you should have someone drop by the house unannounced a few times. If I were her and truly remorseful, I’d welcome it as an opportunity to prove myself and rebuild trust.

A few thoughts. I think there’s a 0% chance he shows up at my house this week. Still, my mother’s husband is aware of the affair now and he will be keeping a close eye—he lives next to us. I also have my dad coming by to help with kids and my sister coming by to help with a dinner one night (as I usually do all the cooking).

I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think this is the point where she looks to cheat again.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:57 PM, Tuesday, April 5th]

You could inform the OBS unless she’s in the middle of D him and doesn’t care.

You could inform the OBS unless she’s in the middle of D him and doesn’t care.

OBS and I are still exchanging texts daily. It’s mostly just noting our disbelief at various acts from our spouses and a shared bond to protect our children.

Neither of us are very concerned about the two of them connecting right now as both are desperately trying to R—so if they reach out again to each other, the other is likely to share the communication with his/her spouse, who will notify the other spouse, destroying any shot at a R. But even without that mechanism it isn’t likely. Neither of them were looking to run away together or leave their marriage and neither one likes the other very much right now. My WW feels used and the OM is pissed that my WW told the OBS about the affair.

Andy Griffin show rerun. " Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"

This looks like Karma.

A polygraph could help determine if she has any "priors" in your relationship.

I hate to tell you this, But you will never find out the whole story. You will never know the real reason. Going through her affair does no good, it will not change anything. She had fun, more fun then you had. It was very good got her. She was starting a new exciting new life with AP. Until it just blew up. AP was not leaving his wife for a cheater.

The important thing is you, you know what you have, a cheating wife who sexually perform very well for AP. Who had exciting sex with him. As you took care of the kids. Either live with it or leave.

Nothing you do, nothing you are going to find, or put together, is going to make perfect sense. She had an opportunity to cheat, have great sex and she took it. You know affair sex it the greatest.

Stop putting your self through this. I know we all do it. Nobody has gotten the answer they were looking for. Check the boards, there are not any posting saying, I figured out my WS affair Why they did it

[This message edited by HarryD at 3:39 PM, Wednesday, April 6th]

I hate to tell you this, But you will never find out the whole story. You will never know the real reason. Going through her affair does no good, it will not change anything. She had fun, more fun then you had. It was very good got her. She was starting a new exciting new life with AP. Until it just blew up. AP was not leaving his wife for a cheater.

The important thing is you, you know what you have, a cheating wife who sexually perform very well for AP. Who had exciting sex with him. As you took care of the kids. Either live with it or leave.

Nothing you do, nothing you are going to find, or put together, is going to make perfect sense. She had an opportunity to cheat, have great sex and she took it. You know affair sex it the greatest.

Stop putting your self through this. I know we all do it. Nobody has gotten the answer they were looking for. Check the boards, there are not any posting saying, I figured out my WS affair Why they did it.

I don’t agree. In fact, I’d say I’m understanding more and more each day. As others have pointed out, I’m married to an addict—first the spending, then the alcohol, then the affair. She was in trance states, compartmentalizing her real life and her fantasy life. She was addicted to the validation she was getting every time he sent her a text, boosting her self-esteem. She traded sex for that feeling.

The question of why she would sacrifice all the good in her life for those quick hits is no different than why so many people choose to live their lives in an alley so they can regularly do heroin. It’s an illogical choice, but one that millions make daily. Her choice is just as irrational.

The question is now whether I think she can change, and if she does, do I still love her enough to see that path through? And if I see that path through, will I be able to move past all the scars she’s given me?

All hard questions that I can’t answer right now. On the bright side, I’m in Rome and about to dive in to a big bowl of pasta—so things could be worse for me.

You had asked for any books on addiction. I am currently reading "Decieved - Facing the trauma of sexual betrayal" by Claudia Black PhD.
Be warned it is from the position exclusively of women who have been betrayed by men. But there is good information nonetheless regarding sexual addiction. I don't know if it will help you or not but you may find a few gold nuggets. Good luck to you.

You had asked for any books on addiction. I am currently reading "Decieved - Facing the trauma of sexual betrayal" by Claudia Black PhD.
Be warned it is from the position exclusively of women who have been betrayed by men. But there is good information nonetheless regarding sexual addiction. I don't know if it will help you or not but you may find a few gold nuggets. Good luck to you.

Thank you! I will look into it.

I’d also be interested in a book I can recommend for my WW. She’s now reading a book on addiction, but it’s dense, so it’s been slow going this far.

The Truth.
You may think you have it. But if the ruminating starts well then we go into rerun mode. Getting to acceptance takes a lot of time. You never will have all the truth. That only exists between your wife and her ap. That’s shitty but you will get some semblance of it from a remorseful spouse. But it is never the whole truth in my opinion.
You need to set boundaries with your in-laws. My wife was confiding to both her sister and brother during her affair. Both have had affairs. I had this shut down. There was no more talking about our marriage to them. I policed it for the first couple of months and enforced my boundary. It became very uncomfortable for my wife to have a conversation about our marriage with her family. She wants to talk about the marriage she can talk to me or our therapist. But not her family. It’s been 8 years and she still talks to her sister but mostly about superficial things. Her brother and I had it out 7 years ago and she or I haven’t talked to him since. My point is your in-laws have no place in YOUR marriage. When it was going down they should have been telling her to either fix her marriage or leave. Kudos for telling the OBS. The right thing is not always the most comfortable option. Your in for a hell of a ride. Use the wisdom of this site to your advantage. All affairs from start to finish follow the same script.

The Truth.

You may think you have it. But if the ruminating starts well then we go into rerun mode. Getting to acceptance takes a lot of time. You never will have all the truth. That only exists between your wife and her ap. That’s shitty but you will get some semblance of it from a remorseful spouse. But it is never the whole truth in my opinion.

You need to set boundaries with your in-laws. My wife was confiding to both her sister and brother during her affair. Both have had affairs. I had this shut down. There was no more talking about our marriage to them. I policed it for the first couple of months and enforced my boundary. It became very uncomfortable for my wife to have a conversation about our marriage with her family. She wants to talk about the marriage she can talk to me or our therapist. But not her family. It’s been 8 years and she still talks to her sister but mostly about superficial things. Her brother and I had it out 7 years ago and she or I haven’t talked to him since. My point is your in-laws have no place in YOUR marriage. When it was going down they should have been telling her to either fix her marriage or leave. Kudos for telling the OBS. The right thing is not always the most comfortable option. Your in for a hell of a ride. Use the wisdom of this site to your advantage. All affairs from start to finish follow the same script. duh

For various reasons, I think I have a version very close to the full truth. My wife has been very honest and has shared a number of awful things she didn’t have to tell me—genuinely hurtful, awful things that I won’t ever be able to forget (only some of which I’ve shared in this thread). Between what she has told me and what I’ve learned from other sources, I’m in a good place at feeling I understand what happened.

I don’t think I can forgive her for the indecency toward me though, so for this to work, I need to learn to live with it daily. I don’t know that I can. I wonder if a part of me is just hoping she fails on her end, giving me an out on R. I hope that’s not the case as I feel like R is still my preferred path.

As for your in-law issues, I’m sorry to hear. It’s definitely a complicated situation on my end as well. I think that’s a good idea for her to stop talking with them entirely about it—at first we thought it was important for her to repair the damage she caused to my reputation, but moving forward, I think it’s best to cut that all out.

I really need to dig into this topic more with the CT as I have a lot of unresolved thoughts on the matter.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:02 AM, Thursday, April 7th]

Another addiction resource is Dr. Brenda Schaeffer, who wrote Is It Love or Is It Addiction. She's also on youtube (she's still alive; you'll see that's relevant of you search the web on her name).

Also, I got the truth on d-day; I still hurt like hell....

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:51 PM, Thursday, April 7th]

I don’t know that I can. I wonder if a part of me is just hoping she fails on her end, giving me an out on R. I hope that’s not the case as I feel like R is still my preferred path.

Be prepared that at some point she may do that. After you have made progress, maybe a new bit of info comes to light or during an argument she blurts out something new, or the OBS finds something...

Obviously it would depend on what it is, but will that reset the R back to 0 or would it be a small correction?
From my experience when you think that you have all the info, another shoe drops. In the words of my XWW "I thought we already talked about that..."

I don’t agree. In fact, I’d say I’m understanding more and more each day. As others have pointed out, I’m married to an addict—first the spending, then the alcohol, then the affair. She was in trance states, compartmentalizing her real life and her fantasy life. She was addicted to the validation she was getting every time he sent her a text, boosting her self-esteem. She traded sex for that feeling.

The question of why she would sacrifice all the good in her life for those quick hits is no different than why so many people choose to live their lives in an alley so they can regularly do heroin. It’s an illogical choice, but one that millions make daily. Her choice is just as irrational.

Excellent analysis considering the facts. Your level-headedness is quite remarkable at this early stage when many BHs (myself included) were consumed with anger. Kudos for keeping it civil and maintaining a cool head.

The question is now whether I think she can change, and if she does, do I still love her enough to see that path through? And if I see that path through, will I be able to move past all the scars she’s given me?

All hard questions that I can’t answer right now.

Again, you've captured the essence of what lies ahead. But that can wait for after your trip.

On the bright side, I’m in Rome and about to dive in to a big bowl of pasta—so things could be worse for me.

Ah, Rome and its food. In fact I should say Italy and its food. I concluded there is no place in Italy that serves bad food - not one. Every meal I've had at every price-point in every restaurant in every Italian city I've visited (Rome, Firenze, Pisa, Venice) has been excellent. Funny anecdote: I was living in NYC at the time, and when I got back from my first Italy trip, I still craved that delicious Italian cuisine, so rushed to Little Italy to try and retain that Italian flavor just a bit longer, but alas, was served the most horrible Italian food I've ever had.

So enjoy Italy!

Ah, Rome and its food. In fact I should say Italy and its food. I concluded there is no place in Italy that serves bad food - not one. Every meal I've had at every price-point in every restaurant in every Italian city I've visited (Rome, Firenze, Pisa, Venice) has been excellent. Funny anecdote: I was living in NYC at the time, and when I got back from my first Italy trip, I still craved that delicious Italian cuisine, so rushed to Little Italy to try and retain that Italian flavor just a bit longer, but alas, was served the most horrible Italian food I've ever had.

So enjoy Italy!

All wonderful cities (I’m in Florence now with some family friends—a perfect remedy for my broken heart). Heading south tomorrow to the Amalfi Coast—and I do recommend you come back to Italy at least once more to go further south. While you’re correct that all food in Italy is wonderful, there’s a direct correlation to it getting better the further south you go!

Nothing is better than the Amalfi. One of the best smelling places on earth

So I thought I’d share a brief update.

The first couple of nights—plane ride over and first night in Rome—I’d say I had mostly negative feelings about the relationship. It was a lot of anger at various things and a lot of sadness about other stuff. I began to see myself drifting in a negative direction on the relationship.

I went to Florence on Thursday. The family friends I was visiting own a jewelry store there, so I spent a good deal of my first day there in the store chatting with them. I was not in a good headspace in my marriage, but I felt like I wanted to push through and buy my WW something—I needed to get her a Christmas gift still as the thing I got for her she had to return.

I thought it could be a good opportunity to find something significant, that would reflect my feelings in the moment while still offering hope for our future. I looked and looked, but no luck. I settled on some modestly priced earrings and figured that was that.

A few hours later though I saw a piece that jumped out at me: it was a gorgeous sapphire ring, shaped in a teardrop, surrounded by diamonds. The price was outrageous, but it really clicked with me emotionally. Sapphires are her favorite stone and I’ve never found a piece I liked enough to get for her before; the ring felt appropriate as an offering of renewal; and the teardrop shape was perfect to show my feelings.

I pointed the ring out to my friends (older couple and their daughter, roughly my age) and they agreed it was beautiful but wanted to show me other similar items so I had some choices.

One of the other rings they showed me was objectively gorgeous, but the stone wasn’t in a tear drop. The daughter noted that to buy such an expensive ring that would last my wife a lifetime, she would probably feel sad looking down at the tear—internally I wondered if that was my intent.

I went for a walk around the old city and a memory slapped me across the face. I lived in Florence in 2005 while studying abroad and there was a girl I fell for in my class while we were here. I walked passed the market (the one with the metal boar, forgot if it has a name) and noted the spot we first kissed. Then I came to the Arno and recall the spot I was (near the Ponte Vecchio) where I went for an hour or so the morning after she hooked up with another guy the night before. How sad I was then (though obviously nothing compared to now).

It occurred to me that perhaps the teardrop was all wrong. Why would I want to repair our marriage and give her a gorgeous gift that reminds her of the sadness in this moment? It’s not generosity, it’s petty and selfish on my part.

I want to be better—really and truly better. I went back to the store and bought the other ring (not the teardrop). I want to give it to her when I return not because I’m convinced I’ll stay with her, but because I want to prove to myself I’m capable of looking forward instead of backward. I want to prove to myself that I’m capable of evolving into a better version of myself.

I don’t know if I’m ready to even do that, but when I get home, I at least want to have that option at hand. It’s a hard feeling to explain—I can’t get out of my own head right now, but I want to believe if I just keep pushing myself along with my actions, I’ll end up in the place I want to be. To do the things I want to do rather than the things I’m thinking or feeling in a given moment.

Anyway, perhaps the above is just the ranting of a madman lol. Maybe I’m entirely lost and just can’t see it. I’m in Positano now and I can think of no better place to further clear my head.

Ciao everyone.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 7:24 AM, Sunday, April 10th]

I want to be better—really and truly better....I want to give it to her when I return not because I’m convinced I’ll stay with her, but because I want to prove to myself I’m capable of looking forward instead of backward. I want to prove to myself that I’m capable of evolving into a better version of myself.

Then buy yourself a gift, shoes, clothes, heck maybe a Ferrari. Give your wife an expensive ring AFTER she demonstrates that she wants to be better, really and truly better, by putting in real effort. Buying an expensive ring at this time shows you're playing the Pick Me dance, maybe the tarantella version now that you're in Italy, but the Pick Me dance nevertheless.

To me such a gift is for down the road, a year or two or more, when she has done significant work on herself.

If I were in her shoes, after what she has done and was thinking during Christmas, I’d tell you I deserve no such replacement gift and ask you to look toward next Christmas, watching what I do this first year to rebuild the damage I have done.

If anything I’d keep this purchase in a safe place, ready to give when it means she has really done significant improvement on herself.

But of course this is your life, not mine, so you have to do what is right for you.

Meanwhile, what do you hear from her. How safe are you feeling with her back at home. Is she working hard to give you peace of mind? Have others reported back to you?

Hopefully she and they have so you can instead focus on enjoying this time w your mom.

Ciao

Give your wife an expensive ring AFTER she demonstrates that she wants to be better, really and truly better, by putting in real effort. Buying an expensive ring at this time shows you're playing the Pick Me dance, maybe the tarantella version now that you're in Italy, but the Pick Me dance nevertheless.

^^This x 100.

You *might* be giving her the gift of R. She has betrayed you, she needs to prove herself first.

I remember the first Christmas after my D-Day (my D-Day was in April), my WH gave me the tennis bracelet I always wanted. I don't think I wore it for YEARS because it meant nothing, no gift was going to undo the harm he did to our marriage, our family, and his job.