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So the OBS sent this to your WW but she knew of the A between your WW and her husband?

Throughout the fall, my wife, the OM, and OBS were attending a few PTA events together. The OBS felt my wife was very friendly toward her husband and very standoffish to her. At the Dec. 17 event (where they first kissed), the OBS was there sitting with both of them at a long dinner. She felt something between the two of them.

At the end of the night, when the OM followed my wife up to bathroom and kissed her, he returned back to the table with mascara on his face and the OBS noticed and quietly called him out for it. He fiercely denied it and said it must have been something he touched, wiping it off.

For the next couple of days, the OBS fought with OM about it—she knew in her heart something happened between OM and my WW, but he kept gaslighting her and making her feel crazy.

However, her suspicion didn’t leave and she began discussing her feelings with one of her friends. They noticed things about my wife, specifically how outrageous her attire was at these parents events—wearing provocative clothing that simply wasn’t appropriate for a married woman at a location without her husband. My wife also was constantly badmouthing me to anyone who would listen, making it clear she was in a unhappy marriage. And lastly, as noted, she kept awkwardly avoiding the OBS while being very friendly and fun to everyone else.

So weeks pass and OBS sets out intentionally to try to befriend my wife. She’s unsuccessful until Feb. 26 when they spend most of the night together with another girl chatting and dancing. They all spend a lot of time talking about their sex lives with their husbands, with my WW complaining about me.

There was a married couple in the group dancing and laughing together and my WW made the comment: "oh wow, look at that: they’re married AND in love."

The OBS engaged and asked my WW if things were that bad in her marriage. She laughed it off and said I was a good guy, but the spark was gone.

The OBS left the night confused though—she was highly suspicious still, but also had a really fun night overall hanging out with my wife, who had loosened up around her. She couldn’t square the idea that my wife would be so friendly too her while sleeping with her husband—and literally the day before my wife woke up in a hotel bed with her husband.

That night is also when the OM began pressuring my WW to befriend the OBS further because he wanted to know if the other male on the PTA had given OBS his number (he was suspicious that his wife might be cheating). My WW was VERY uncomfortable doing that, but he kept pressing.

Then on March 2, a few hours before my wife was set to meet OM in the parking garage again, my wife texts OBS for the first time. Friendly conversation, but wife is digging to find out about the other male (who btw was also hitting on my wife and had given her his number…). The OBS used this opportunity as another chance to dig into her suspicions—reading the conversation now is actually humorous because my wife is trying to find out if OBS gave this other guy her number and OBS is trying to find out if my wife is having an affair, but it’s all hidden behind this fake nice bull shit. I’ve read the conversation multiple times and it’s amazing that neither of them realized what was happening.

Anyway, the OBS confirms that she gave the guy her number, but says he’s harmless; then when my WW goes to meet OM, she lies and tells him that the OBS didn’t give her number. I asked my WW why she lied and she just said she felt bad betraying the OBS and didn’t want to get involved in it.

Then the other day, the OBS reached out to my WW again via text as she hadn’t seen her in a month and was still trying to befriend her to see if anything was going on with her husband.

So yea, the OBS was very suspicious of the affair, but kept getting gaslit and couldn’t get hard proof. It’s a shame we didn’t team up back in Dec., because had I known her suspicion, I would have figured it out very quickly. The OM has always been sketchy with his phone and a good liar; my wife is not, I was just oblivious.

And that’s one of the things I need to work through in therapy—after the Jan. 20 night, I should have been way more suspicious. I really think I was suppressing the possibility of an affair as I didn’t want to believe my wife could be capable of it.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:41 PM, Sunday, April 3rd]

Something that understand and are bothered by, as you should, is the fact that throughout the A your WW bad mouthed you to her family, friends, and acquaintances - essentially everyone.

There are plenty of WS who were deep in their A, yet never bad mouthed, or allowed their AP, to bad mouth their spouse. Of course, some WS bad mouth their spouses, as has been mentioned, to justify their terrible behavior of course.

I’m wondering aloud for everyone’s opinion whether, for OPs benefit, this even matters? Is a WS who doesn’t bad mouth their BS during their A better R material than the one who does bad mouth? Is the WS who bad mouths not as good a person deep down as the one who doesn’t? Should the fact that OPs WW bad mouthed him the entire time give him greater pause, in that his WW might currently be faking being nice snd "remorseful", in order to promote R?

OP said his WW was the nicest person he ever met prior to her A. Were all those years in which they were married the fake WW pretending to be nice snd sweet and the real WW is the one we saw during the A? Could OP for all those years of M been duped? Is that possible?

OP - also, have you thought about, whether you D or R, what concrete steps your WW will undertake to repair your reputation to all of the people she bad mouthed you to? D or R, this is her responsibility, snd in my opinion, should be done immediately.

OP - also, have you thought about, whether you D or R, what concrete steps your WW will undertake to repair your reputation to all of the people she bad mouthed you to? D or R, this is her responsibility, snd in my opinion, should be done immediately.

She’s been putting in the work with her family. They know I’m a good guy, but we’re in a weird spot seeing their daughter so unhappy. So now she’s taking the full blame with them and saying how great I am.

Truthfully, it doesn’t really matter to me though. I’m expecting an unprompted apology from her parents at some point. They owe me something for being weak people who raised a weak family. So it’s less about my wife convincing them who I am—we all know who I am; I’m not convinced they know who they are.

As for the friends, this one is complicated. She really had no significant friends in her life—all the current friendships she has began in late-2020 from the PTA and really flourished this year with pandemic restrictions falling off.

So she was badmouthing me to all the people she really can’t see anymore because she’s no longer part of the PTA (and the OBS is, so my wife needs to back off). There are really three girls my wife will likely maintain a relationship with—she went to dinner with two of them last night in an attempt to repair some of my reputation damage and the other we are planning a couples dinner with later this month.

Ultimately, I care less about what these people think and more about my wife going out of her way to lie about how awful I am. It’s so mean-spirited. I’ve never said a bad word about her to anyone I know—it just doesn’t make sense to me and seems so unhelpful. Why would I want people in my life thinking less of my wife? It’s also why I still haven’t told my sister about this affair and she’s the closest person to me in my life.

As for your questions, you’re probably taking the right path. The cruelty of the things she did during the affair may not matter; but they do still haunt me.

You can't come back from your trip and see option A she's the love of your life or option B. she's a lying whore who trashed your name all over.

If you want to and choose to reconcile, you'll have to deal with that second part in an on-going basis as cheating is the gift that keeps on giving.

That's not exactly true for folks who do not rugsweep or stuff the pain inside.

Being betrayed has a long tail, but the tail has a finite length for many BSes. You'll ses it here, usually 5-10 years out, when a BS posts something like, 'I didn't realize it was d-day/Affair season this year.' For myself, I'm on SI almost every day, so it's hard for me to forget, but for the past several years, I've have found myself realizing I'm in the A-season weeks after it started - and that realization has hit me usually when I read a post about somebody else's A-season.

Also, for me over the last several years, d-day is a day for remembering the pain, not for feeling it. Triggers are the same - I remember being in pain, but I don't feel it. For the past several years, the memories of the A that pop into my mind are at the level of 'annoyance'. The A is just one of the shitty things that I experienced during a generally happy life, and it's not the shittiest.

Most of us can expect to have long lives after being betrayed. If one deals with the pain, one can truly recover. If one stuffs the pain inside, one won't recover.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:33 PM, Sunday, April 3rd]

What I’ve been attempting to do over the last few days is really look at her and really connect with her on a human level. I’m trying to see if there’s still a spark. But logically, I also know I can’t do this properly without some distance, so the timing of the trip may be ideal.

This is so spot on. Your trip will afford you a version of The 180. The point of The 180 is to create some psychological space for you so you can clear your eyes and see reality.

Your WW drinks too much. She spends crazy amounts of money on frivolous things. She dresses inappropriately and flaunts her body in public. All of that smacks of somebody who is deeply messed up and in denial about it. Then she cheats with a serial philandering pig and, after being confronted by you, goes full DARVO until she is backed into a corner. Still, you've not described any acts by her that suggest true remorse. In fact, had you not caught her, the A would still be ongoing.

Me, I'm a stan for the OBS. I love her "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" strategy. When you first posted about the GNO with your WW and the OBS, I was pretty sure the OBS was onto your WW and was sniffing around for evidence.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:20 PM, Sunday, April 3rd]

This is so spot on. Your trip will afford you a version of The 180. The point of The 180 is to create some psychological space for you so you can clear your eyes and see reality.

Your WW drinks too much. She spends crazy amounts of money on frivolous things. She dresses inappropriately and flaunts her body in public. All of that smacks of somebody who is deeply messed up and in denial about it. Then she cheats with a serial philandering pig and, after being confronted by you, goes full DARVO until she is fully backed into a corner. Still, you've not described any acts by her that suggest true remorse. In fact, had you not caught her, the A would still be ongoing.

Me, I'm a stan for the OBS. I love her "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" strategy. When you first posted about the GNO with your WW and the OBS, I was pretty sure the OBS was onto your WW and was sniffing around for evidence.

The problem is her behavior was so insane and out of character for her these last few months, so it’s hard for me to weigh it against our 17 years together—when I saw us in a relatively happy marriage.

I disagree with you on the remorse—I’ve seen a big change in her attitude and behavior and a focus on identifying her issues so she can solve them. It’s enough for me to see hope that she can change.

My worry is her change may be slower than my expectations and I’ll quit. I feel like any day I could just be over her. That’s a scary realization and one I feel like could hit post Italy. But I’m not forcing anything—I’m keeping my heart open.

As for the OBS, it was my first time meeting her yesterday. She impressed me. Her head seemed relatively clear for someone who had this news dumped on her the day before. The anger was there for sure, but she seemed to know she couldn’t save her marriage—she felt too disrespected.

I wish her well and I’ll do my best to keep in touch with her.

OP. I think it’s also very telling that your WW had no real friends in her life except for the ones she recently befriended through the PTA.

Have you ever discussed this? I would hope snd assume that this topic is bundled into what she’s working on in IC.

OP. I think it’s also very telling that your WW had no real friends in her life except for the ones she recently befriended through the PTA.

Have you ever discussed this? I would hope snd assume that this topic is bundled into what she’s working on in IC.

Yes, it’s been a discussion. Her friends from college largely fell off and she never had any social prompts to develop friends once we moved to the suburbs—college friends still going to bars and we were home hanging out. Another big issue is how close I am to my family, who are constantly around. So she was living a life surrounded by my family, separated from hers, without any friends. And she was a social person who really missed that part of her college life.

Yes, it’s been a discussion. Her friends from college largely fell off and she never had any social prompts to develop friends once we moved to the suburbs—college friends still going to bars and we were home hanging out. Another big issue is how close I am to my family, who are constantly around. So she was living a life surrounded by my family, separated from hers, without any friends. And she was a social person who really missed that part of her college life.

Again, if you (or she) look to things like this to explain her behavior, she will never be a safe partner. There will always be these 'woah is me' type of "reasons" that aren't actually reasons at all. Be careful with this line of thinking. I really do hope you keep contact with her to a minimum on your trip. Space and time are needed for you to see the situation for what it is and not what you hope it will be. Your wife is still very much in panic mode.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 1:53 AM, Monday, April 4th]

Again, if you (or she) look to things like this to explain her behavior, she will never be a safe partner. There will always be these 'woah is me' type of "reasons" that aren't actually reasons at all. Be careful with this line of thinking. I really do hope you keep contact with her to a minimum on your trip. Space and time are needed for you to see the situation for what it is and not what you hope it will be. Your wife is still very much in panic mode.

Neither of us are using that to justify the affair. I’m just pointing out the truth. In fact, that’s a very sad part of this for her: she had a great new social circle forming and she destroyed it.

I don’t know what I’ll see, but I’ll need the conviction to then follow my heart. Either course—R or D—is going to be a long road. I’m hopeful I’ll be set on a path I believe in.

I’ll also add, she’s largely being incredibly sweet to me now, but objectively, I recognize that D is a bad path for her unless she absolutely can’t stand me. But that’s always possible—there’s still a X% chance that months from now she wakes up and decides our relationship is not worth saving. So I refuse to half-heartedly pursue R and risk that outcome. If I’m going to be that vulnerable again, I need to really believe it’s my best course.

You seem to have quite a level and clear headed approach, and kudos to you on that.

Stay the course, and keep your head clear. You will get to where you need to go, even though you may want to go in another direction.

Here's hoping that you will find even more clarity on your trip.

she went to dinner with two of them last night in an attempt to repair some of my reputation damage

What did she report back on how this discussion went. I wonder if you can believe her.

Are these two women that you’d approve her keeping in touch with? Or did they enable the affair?

Update:

Yesterday was difficult, but seemingly very productive. My WW finished reading her testimony of the affair to me—all 17~ pages. It was more of less what I already knew at this point, but there was a lot more mundane detail and insight into her thinking along the way.

It was hard for her to read and only increased her feelings of shame—especially all the things she felt were so sexually liberating in the moment. She also noted the few flags that made her think she wasn’t the only girl he was seeing on the side and she doesn’t know why she didn’t run away from him.

From my perspective, the big reveal was the holidays (Christmas/NYE weeks)—when I recall her being super upset and moody. From Dec. 28 to when they met at the park and he suggested a hotel to when they entered the room together on the evening of Jan. 4 was everything for me. That week was her conscious decision to give up on her marriage. I really dug into it with her, trying to understand what marriage meant to her and what her moral tenets were that kept her aligned.

The conversation was good, but she’s a person that lost her way. Everything for her is defined by external forces instead of internal ones. For me, the primary reason I don’t have sex with other women is because I’m married—the myriad of other reasons are secondary—for her, it was all good as long as I didn’t find out. The marriage itself wasn’t meaningful to her; just trying not to hurt me with discovery of her actions carried any weight. That’s a big issue for me to hurdle with her: I need to believe marriage, as an institution, means something to her for me to proceed in a life with her.

I also asked her if she could do it again, would she prefer the same series of events or instead for it to be my affair she discovered. She thought a moment and said she would want the same thing—her reasoning was that she thought an affair by me would likely do irreparable damage to her (self-esteem, etc.).

I was initially puzzled by her answer—she felt that burning down all her integrity was less damaging than recovering from external pain. And it occurred to me it’s because she really had no integrity to begin with—there was no moral compass guiding her. For me, the answer was such a no-brainer: as painful as this has been for me, I’d take it again in a heartbeat before I sold off my integrity for quick sex.

Ultimately, I’m going to need to see her make drastic strides in self-improvement before I can commit to her again.

I’ll also add the events of last night, as it was a very significant moment for me. We were cuddled in bed, attempting unsuccessfully to de-escalate from the intense conversations of the day (we ended up instead getting into minor arguments). Then my wife pointed something out about our 3.5 year-old daughter. In late-Nov or early Dec, she began coming into our room in the middle of the night—I’d bring her into the center of the bed and she’d fall back asleep until morning. It was happening 2-3x a week throughout the entire affair. The last time she came in was the week leading up to my discovery on March 15.

My wife and I would cuddle with her; she’d move around kicking my wife and we’d laugh about it in the morning.

Now I understand the timing was entirely coincidental, but I’d be lying if I said it didn’t hit me like a ton of bricks. I rolled over in bed and cried a bit last night thinking about it. I don’t believe in god, but if I did, isn’t that the messenger he’d send to try and heal us during the hardest part of our marriage?

My daughter was just being a three-year old who wanted to be near her parents; but is it possible she could sense the tension growing between us? I know it’s insane and I don’t think I believe a word in writing right now, but I can’t pretend it’s entirely meaningless to me.

Lastly, we ended up embracing after the shared moment about our daughter. It led to us kissing for about 30 minutes like teenagers and ended with oral sex from my wife (she was on her period). We woke up this morning and her period had passed, so we had sex.

I feel like my wife and I have re-bonded physically, but emotionally and structurally, I still have a long way to go. The MC is later this morning and Italy is tomorrow—one day at a time.

Was this the first extended period of opportunity (her involvement outside the home with the PTA & OM) for her to meet another man - and cheat?

I think it's too late for you and the OBS to cover up their affair from the community.

People love to gossip and from your recent posts - your wife and the OM gave the PTA members plenty to talk about.

You mentioned earlier that the OM went to great lengths to be discreet. Obviously not true from his behavior in front of his wife (at a public event). And be sure others noticed them leaving the table at the same time.

Plus the fact that another (2nd) man also hit on your wife is evidence that your wife attracted a lot of attention to herself (others notice this too).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 1:12 PM, Monday, April 4th]

What did she report back on how this discussion went. I wonder if you can believe her.

Are these two women that you’d approve her keeping in touch with? Or did they enable the affair?

My wife admits she was a bit out of it all night; perhaps not ready to socialize again so soon. One of the girls is a big talker though, so that helped with her dominating the conversation.

I’m ok with her keeping in touch with them—they did not enable the affair in any way as far as I know (I read all their text convos over the months and there’s no indication they were aware of it).

I do have some concerns though as the OBS has mutual friendships with them (none of these women are close friends to be clear). I can imagine a scenario where the OBS is frustrated sharing friendships with my wife, especially so soon after the reveal. I warned my wife of this and to tread carefully. Thus far, the OBS is not a vindictive person, but I understand the pain she’s in now and I think my wife needs to give up every inch of ground to her.

I think it's too late for you and the OBS to cover up their affair from the community.

People love to gossip and from your recent posts - your wife and the OM gave the PTA members plenty to talk about.

You mentioned earlier that the OM went to great lengths to be discreet. Obviously not true from his behavior in front of his wife (at a public event). And be sure others noticed them leaving the table at the same time.

Plus the fact that another (2nd) man also hit on your wife is evidence that your wife attracted a lot of attention to herself (others notice this too).

I’m not sure what you’re referring to, so I was probably unclear. Once the physical affair began, my WW and OM would virtually never talk in public. The signals the OBS picked up on we’re tied to the fall and Dec. 17 dinner. In fact, my wife felt OM was being so distant at times that she felt he might be over the affair—she describes it in two-week swings: they’d have a physical encounter and he’s largely ignore her until the next one or some quick sexting. It was especially true in Feb. when from the 8th to the hotel stay on the 24th, they barely talked—even though they were at multiple PTA events together.

Ultimately you’re right in that suspicions could have arose. I’d put even money on the affair spreading wider if I had to bet.

As for the second man—he was the only other guy on the PTA and he was hitting on every mom, exchanging numbers and complimenting them. His efforts were out in the open for all the mom’s to laugh about.

Was this the first extended period of opportunity (her involvement outside the home with the PTA & OM) for her to meet another man - and cheat?

Yes and no. She has her office and she does travel for work. There’s no doubt she has gotten plenty of male attention over the years. To her, she claims there was just something uniquely different about this guy as an affair is never something she had considered before.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:17 PM, Monday, April 4th]

Above everything else, I think the most important reveal from your wife is that she thought the marriage was over, so why not…

What were her reasons why she thought the marriage was over? You obviously did not think the marriage was anything other than fine. I think your WW owes a detailed explanation about this.

Also, is it an option to move to a different town with your family to start fresh? - no small town gossip, no OM or OBS, your WW can establish a new safe set of friends, etc. Your daughter is young. My thought would be a town close enough to both of your jobs, and your family, but yet far enough away.

A few points, in no particular order:

You can't come back from your trip and see option A she's the love of your life or option B. she's a lying whore who trashed your name all over.

It's likely not going to be that sort of either/or perspective. Rather, you're going to see that your WW is a deeply troubled individual. The other factors you have enumerated about her suggest she is rather rudderless. I would submit you are married to somebody who is an addict, or at least the functional equivalent of an addict -- her main "drug" being positive reinforcement from others. Hence the extramarital sex, the excessive drinking, the shallow materialism, the inappropriate dress in public. It's really hard being married to an addict. Add to that your addict is the kind who, in the throes of her obsession, will trash you behind your back to family and community. Add to that the trauma and emasculation of the sexual infidelity.

Healing from infidelity in the best of circumstances is a long (like 5+ years), difficult, frustrating, non-linear path of three steps forward, two steps back. Add to that the chaos injected by working with an addict and you have no idea what you're in for.

There will always be these 'woah is me' type of "reasons"

I'm apologizing in advance for the crusty old English major in me. It's, "Woe is me."

As to gossip, it's almost a certainty that there is already some gossip circulating about your WW and Officer Priapism. It's highly likely there will be more gossip as time goes by. Men in social circles like the PTA, when they learn that your WW was giving blowjobs in a parking lot, will begin to circle her like vultures, hoping for some easy meat. I saw this multiple times in the PTA groups when our kids were in school. Those PTA groups are hotbeds of infidelity. Lots of families with double income plus young kids, which equates to sexually frustrated husbands. Men view cheating wives as sluts. Easy lays. Possible sources of some side action. You and your WW should anticipate an uptick in expressions of interest from men.

As to your 3-year old daughter, keep in mind that kids at that age have as much brain capacity as adults, but almost no information cluttering their minds. Therefore, they have way more available brain power than adults. Further, their horizons are much closer than ours as adults, mostly limited to the quotidian rhythms of the home life. And they are completely dependent on the parents for everything, meaning they are laser-focused on the parents. Lots of brain power and capacity, limited scope of things to think about, high degree of focus on the parent. It's almost certain she sensed a disturbance in the force and this was why she was insistently reminding you two -- mainly your wife -- of the obligation you owe to her.

There’s no doubt she has gotten plenty of male attention over the years. To her, she claims there was just something uniquely different about this guy as an affair is never something she had considered before.

This detail is somewhat unusual. Most cheating spouses, at least the ones who do the work, realize that the cheating was about them, and the AP was mainly just a matter of proximity at the moment when the cheater was primed to cheat. Your WW is telling you that her cheating was more about this specific AP, something she was attracted to about him. Perhaps, since OBS is considering divorcing the AP, you tell your WW that she is free to pursue her joy with this loser of a man. Clearly, her picker is deeply flawed. A serial philanderer on the police force. There's a worthy expenditure of tax dollars. How many donuts an penicillin shots per dollar do taxpayers spend on Lt. Puerco? There is a case to be made for "let her have him, and let him have her, and good riddance."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:29 PM, Monday, April 4th]

As for the friends, this one is complicated. She really had no significant friends in her life—all the current friendships she has began in late-2020 from the PTA and really flourished this year with pandemic restrictions falling off.

I see my ex in this. While I wouldn't necessarily call her a narc, she definitely checks off some of the boxes. I'm an asocial introvert so I don't have many close friends. Someone social without long term friends is that way for a reason. With my ex she would move from one BFF to another without any lasting more than 6ish months. With her there would always be something that turned her off from the friendship.

As to gossip, it's almost a certainty that there is already some gossip circulating about your WW and Officer Priapism. It's highly likely there will be more gossip as time goes by.

Second this. People notice more than you think. Two people suddenly dropping off the PTA in a short timeframe will not go unnoticed. Then people will think back on behaviors from months ago and start speculating.

Everything for her is defined by external forces instead of internal ones. For me, the primary reason I don’t have sex with other women is because I’m married—the myriad of other reasons are secondary—for her, it was all good as long as I didn’t find out.

The bad mouthing to others and primarily to herself was to rationalize away her betrayal. So there was at least some internal resistance to be overcome. The need or at least excessive craving for external validation is a common trait in waywards. That would be what I would hope her IC works hardest with her to fix.

My wife admits she was a bit out of it all night; perhaps not ready to socialize again so soon.

I thought the goal was to repair the damage she inflicted on your image to others. Did she do any of that? Did she tell you what she said to them? That is part of the healing and rebuilding process. If she can’t go forward with that then I do t have high hopes she’ll ever be a truly safe partner for you.