An enormous number of women (myself included) struggle while adapting to the changes to their relationships that inevitably occur once babies are added to the mix (I will note from my own experience that dynamics can change with each additional child).
(presuming the parents are married)
Do you personally feel that mothers face unique relationship changes (pre/post-birth) and fathers do not?
Maybe it’s lack of sleep,
It's fair to generalize that mothers tend to suffer more than fathers in this area. But maybe just as a father may experience a different form of exhaustion in the form of unrelenting expectations from work and going to home to, rightfully, pull weight and also be awoken regularly with duties. In my personal experience, neither parent is immune to their own type of constant tiredness and exhaustion.
maybe it’s hormones,
Mothers definitely get a raw deal on that one as they're alone in the hormone rollercoaster. Mothers have my sympathy. But fathers who care about their wives and support them through this time aren't living in a hormone rollercoaster-free vacuum. It's a "gift" (lol -right?) that a healthy couple share in different ways.
maybe its a disconnect between expectation and reality,
Is this unique to mothers? I don't mean to suggest mothers do not face this. I'm certain they do. I mean to ask if you're saying mothers experience this and fathers are excluded from it?
but resentment of ones spouse is common – even when that spouse is mostly "good" (many are not).
So I do not presume: I read this paragraph and more specifically this sentence as you're speaking of the mother/W resenting the father/H as well as a generalization that "many" fathers/H's are not mostly good. If so...
How sad it would be for the mother to commonly resent the father -even if the father is mostly good. It would be equally sad for the opposite to be true. But I'd hate to default to feeling either path being common, and I'd definitely hate to believe either to be justified or understandable (not to suggest you typed that out). Resentment is so very far from love and from a healthy marriage. It's so damn toxic and despite the challenges of being a parent, new or not, moments of negative emotion is not resentment.
Some marriages are able to withstand the enormous changes that having children bring – some are not. I have NEVER seen someone contemplate separation or divorce blithely. Too often I see women in what I would consider to be unlivable situations trying to "work things out" for the sake of their child (before Linus jumps in because I know he will, I do not suggest that men do not also make pretty terrible sacrifices for their families).
When hearing someone speak of conflict, we've all heard the saying that "there's three sides to every story", right? May I ask how many of these situations you were able to hear from both sides? It's true that even here on SI that we may read a BS's words but not the WS. But, if the BS has experienced adultery, there's not much of another side to hear in terms of judging the WS's actions as wrong. It's a hard line in the sand and that line does not require the rationale of the WS because it's a line that does not budge based upon the perceived faults of a BS.
When it comes to marriage/parenting problems, there are significantly more grey areas, nuance and subtlety than infidelity. Shoot, a situation doesn't even require someone to be right and the other wrong. Sometimes there's just a difference of opinion and more than one path to success.
If anyone is reading a person's biased version of events from within a M, it behooves the reader to keep in mind that few people will share how ugly the writer may have been leading up to and through the narrative being shared. How many people go onto discussion forums and brag about how they've been grossly negligent, unjust and rationalized their justifying a divorce?
No wife and no husband openly says how they've blithely decided to divorce.
A staggering (and heartbreaking) number of women experience/discover infidelity during pregnancy or when their child(ren) are very young – obviously experiencing this kind of trauma in these circumstances is a special sort of awful.
(Consider the source. If one goes to a men's rights discussion board and I believe you'll find an equal serving of one-sided experiences.) I'll freely admit that it's a special kind of awful for a new mother to discover that kind of cruelty while facing the challenges unique to a new mother. I can't speak for a mother/wife in that situation but I would have empathy for her. I can only speak from the point of view of a father/H who discovered 12 years of lies and infidelity while my third child was 5 months old...
Neither have exclusive rights to being more wronged by infidelity based upon being a mother or a father.
Lately I’ve done a lot of my JFO "triage work" there. I invariably recommend that those women come here for support. Sometimes – certainly not often - I see them post in JFO. I imagine others lurking in the background, like I did, wondering if this is a safe space for them. Whether they (or others) are participating in these conversations, they are reading. I am protective of those women.
That's commendable of you. I can think of many members I've been personally helped by who no doubt did something similar for me. There are some beautiful people here and what they do is "thankless" in nature.
In reading this thread, whether people read the article or not, people (especially women) are going to hear that divorce, especially with young children, is selfish and wrong. That it is giving up. That it is worthy of judgment and condemnation. That any unhappiness they have in their marriage, if it doesn’t include beating or cheating, is a frivolous, selfish problem.
Before someone "hears" something regarding a specific article, it'd be reasonable that they take a moment to read the article before "hearing" what they want to believe. I believe that both men and women are capable of the foolishness of choosing to ignore the core of the discussion before drawing a conclusion.
It's just my .02, but the problem with D, especially with young children being involved, is the systematic lack of value and honor for the vows they willingly made. People literally treat a vow as the same as if they were in a drive-through for fast food and after the slightest urge for a different meal, they, after the quickest glance at the side view mirror, zip out of the line and zip across the street for a taco instead of a burger. People ARE selfish. They ARE frivolous. All one has to do is value a vow for what it actually is and then observe how people treat their vows. (more on this in a moment)
Did someone in the thread say "any unhappiness they have in their marriage, if it doesn’t include beating or cheating, is a frivolous, selfish problem"?
Or, if they have already chosen to divorce (as others have chimed in) and NOT chosen to air their dirty laundry far and wide, that everyone around them has also passed that judgment. That’s a lot.
If a person seeks to have their words published, as this person did, they are putting their actions out there to be judged. She literally aired out some seriously petty thoughts which she used to "justify" throwing her husband and kids under the bus. If she was being physically or mentally abused, that's not airing out dirty laundry. Just my opinion but no one should confuse the feelings she shared with her avoiding airing out dirty laundry. She DID air her dirty laundry...her selfish internal dialog.
That’s the kind of thing that keeps people in bad situations.
If anything, I believe the writer flaunts how she devalues marriage, is a vow breaker and is a voice which can poison the foundation of a marriage of susceptible mind.
....I think we should be more careful about judging people’s parenting.
That reminds me of how my son feels sometimes. My 11 year old son hates it when I enforce consequences for bad decisions he makes. I am teaching him that in real life, when we do bad things, there are natural consequences for our actions. I may fail, but I am working hard to train him to understand that he should think real hard before he does something because it may come at a cost.
When someone relies on the lack of judgement of others, they become all the more selfish. Quite frankly, some things deserve public displays of disgust; such as adultery and neglect for children's welfare.
There are a lot of voices here. Some are louder than others. That can be incredibly intimidating to someone new here. It can be silencing.
Maybe? I suppose it's plausible. What source do you use to found that on?
I've not personally observed Thumos stifling any new members. Admittedly, I've not seen 100% of his posts. lol
Thumos, it will not surprise anyone if I suggest that you are one those loud voices. I’ve said this to you before, but rightly or wrongly, that means people will listen.
Loud is not synonymous with being capable of articulating or debating (not arguing) a thought. I'll leave it at that.
...HOW you speak matters though.
I agree with you and will add that how we all speak matters if we desire to be taken seriously.
It has been suggested you tone down the hyperbole.
I'll give that to you. But he, like his most-unfortunate brotherine, has experienced his own awful trauma and he is going to be imperfect in his healing just like every other BW and BH here. That's not a license to be hateful (not suggesting he has been). But it is a license for him to have strong feelings make their way out in less-than-perfect (in the eye of the beholder...) ways from time to time.
[Before I let this go, because I know I should, I would like to point out that I am not the one raising patriarchy and empowerment and feminism. Neither is Ms. Jones (I have already pointed out she brings up the patriarchy in passing as an interest vs. blaming it for her unhappiness). I simply don’t see where she is connecting the dissolution of her family to the "empowerment narrative". I don't see her suggesting she is some sort of feminist icon/example - I certainly never said she was. YOU are the one who seems to keep raising it and are bothered by it.]
Not speaking for anyone else when I say that I think it's written all over her narrative how she feels. For instance, she's not overt and outright saying "I am just a selfish person". But the thought pattern she shares is one of a selfish person.
This point will boil down to how someone perceives her feelings and actions though. Unless everyone sharing their .02 here has the identical foundation for values, morals, communication, etc., there is bound to be a difference of opinion.
[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 7:55 PM, Friday, January 7th]