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The point of view i have is that the powers that be make the mandates they do based on the best advice from the experts.

But those experts don’t have the right to discriminate. Calling someone an expert doesn’t make them immune to faulty thinking. Or that they’re an expert outside of their field. The charter is supposed to be in place to prevent authorities from doing exactly what they’ve done. An epidemiologist is no more of a constitutional lawyer than me, but even I understand the fundamental importance of our rights and freedoms. While constitutional lawyers are sitting on the sidelines for now. That could very well change in the future. Especially considering these vaccine mandates weren’t based on solid scientific proof, just what was vaguely known and assumed at the time. As we know now, the vaccines aren’t doing what they were initially supposed to and even the new narrative is likely to be proven false in the next couple weeks. At least that’s what it’s looking like considering the last bit of data Manitoba provided for the week of Dec 19-26. A few more days and we’ll get to see more.

So what happens, if as Tush says and maybe we are finally getting close to herd immunity. Do we throw away the QR codes? What about those who’s careers were taken from them for refusing to comply with a short lived, unproven vaccine mandate? Will they have a case in the courts? I imagine the lawyers won’t be sitting down then.

Just because our authorities say they carefully consider our charter before stepping on it, doesn’t mean it changed anything when they stepped on it. But that will be tomorrows problem.

I mean, imagine the billions we could have thrown at hospitals and hospital staff and training to better prepare and manage this crisis, if they didn’t steal people livelihoods that they poorly compensated. That would have been far more pro active then the reactionary steps they did take. Of course that’s in hindsight, so not entirely fair. But after our worst outbreak yet, and basically a complete collapse in their narrative I’m beginning to ponder the definition of insanity.

As for wanting the best possible protection available? The reasons are many. I mean the most obvious to me is the absolute low risk for most age groups. Sure there’s a chance, but considering my age group, over 99% are pretty good odds and protection enough. The second most obvious would be government distrust, with a very checkered past, who could truly blame them? Then maybe the least obvious, would be free will, telling someone they have to do something, is always going to have people do the opposite out of principle alone.

At the end of the day, the experts and officials are going to believe what they will until they no longer do. That’s why they should be extremely careful with what they take from citizens in the meantime. Unfortunately it’s very easy to say they aren’t that careful. I’d even be willing to bet they’re starting to lose confidence, I know they in my circles at least.

I do have empathy for you and your position, how you feel about the entire situation.

As it stands right now, under the charter, you would be hard pressed to prove the government violated the charter.

Just google "does a vaccine mandate violate the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms and you'll find many legal sources that go through each section and all possible complaints and see that it does not. Yet.

Nothing, even law, is set in stone and im sure at some point the vaccine mandates will be challenged.

But...again....the "mandates" i was referring to did NOT have anything to do with vaccines.

It was the rage being expressed at delaying IN person school.

It was the rage being expressed at delaying IN person school.

I know, I was just painting a much larger picture is all. Thanks for the chat, DH. Enjoy your Christmas Eve!

On a happy note first official day of online learning went surprisingly well.

No big issues and i was surprised how well the kids did with their work. Little M hated school last year. This year shes engaged, happy to participate and went about doing her slide work on her own when the class meet suddenly dropped.

Im very proud of how well she is doing.

DH, be thankful for the home schooling. Where I am our governor is defying everything to keep people safe. At my daughter's school there are so many sick teachers and administrators out that kids are being combined in rooms - and NO mask mandates for students unless parents request it. Teachers and Administrators are all wearing masks.

So frustrating that some politicians are working so hard to please other politicians and putting people at risk. We had 100 deaths in three days over the weekend -- people in their 40's and 50's. Our state supreme court ruled that our state's national guard must all be vaccinated to serve but Governor said ...'no, they don't have to be.' Court decisions mean nothing to these idiots. We are on our own to protect ourselves here.

Jeaniegirl

Im so sorry. Thats craziness!!!

Im ok with in person or remote. And as i said none if my kids would have been permitted in school this week since one would not have passed the screening we have to do every day.

I dont understand how a court decision could be overturned by a Governor. Shows how different our countries are.

Loukas and DragnHeart, I don’t have an understanding of Canadian politics but I hope that the two of you please respect the No Politics guideline here.

Oh sorry. I understood it more as law not politics.

Absolutely, WOES. I’ve been very mindful to not cross that line, but obviously when discussing public policies, considering who’s responsible for them, it can be blurry. As, DH said, I was more focused on the law of it all. As for recognizing it, our politics aren’t all that different than yours at their core, so if you feel we crossed the line, you’d know.

Good to hear about the kidlets, DH. Hoping it keeps up.

[This message edited by Loukas at 12:42 AM, Friday, January 7th]

Loukas.

Omg what timing.

I follow a doctor on Facebook. Not sure if i can say his name or not but his last video was discussing exactly what we have talked about.

He sees this from your point of view, more than mine.

He is all for vaccines. Hes all for the choice not to get vaccinated.

His view is that with Omicron, masks other than properly fitted N95 and the K ones are really ineffective because of how contagious this variant is.

Vaccine mandates, school closures, and other such policies are really not effective as a whole to protect everyone....and here is why.

Omicron replicates a lot more in the upper airway mucosa and doesn't trigger an antibody response. It gives itself more time to replicate and spread before infecting the host to where theres an immune response. Its gotten less deadly but smarter...

Pretty much everyone will get it eventually.

It also does NOT cause severe illness. Its more of an endemic virus, cold or flu. (I knew that already) with vaccination and natural infection immunity our bodies can fight it off.

So policy to protect the whole isnt necessary. Everyone at this point already has the tools to make the choices themselves how best to protect themself (vaccine, masks, distance, get tested etc) Since the chances of everyone getting infected anyways is so high, public health measures wont be effective.

In THIS CASE i agree with that.

He also says the way Omicron is developing, highly infectious but does not cause severe illness, is great as long as it continues to pan out this way.

I suspect public health measures would be effective if the virus mutates again, this time with the infectiousness of Omicron along with a higher rate if severe illness like delta or worse.

What i do think we need to push for is paid sick leave for everyone. A financial cushion so people can stay home when sick with anything.

I think funding is needed to reduce class size not just to reduce spread of illness but create a better learning environment where teachers can spend more time with students.

I think focus needs to be put into our health care system so that no matter what the crisis the staff and equipment is always available.

Hopefully Omicron will continue on the path its on. Hopefully the numbers will drop enough for hospitals not being at risk of being overwhelmed (theres still cases of delta i just dont think they are doing as much of the virus specific testing as before). Hopefully students go back to school on the 17th and we get to a place of understanding that public measures and mandates are ineffective against this variant.

Another poster touched on this but I think it bears repeating. Our government(s) have the very real responsibility for safeguarding the infrastructure and the country. While many people focus solely on how the mandates and various requirements and restrictions affect them as individuals, it might help them feel less put upon if they stop and realize that this is all new territory for everyone and our public officials are having to figure it all out as they go along. Asking people to wear a mask and/or get tested weekly if they choose not to be vaccinated (or have a medical reason not to) is not that onerous a burden when viewed in the bigger picture - If it keeps our health care system(s) from collapsing, then it's well within the government's responsibility. Just as they close highways when a blizzard dumps 37" of snow and cancel flights during hurricanes and so on. preventing widespread infrastructure collapse from Covid is a valid government function.

Those who refuse to take any measures to protect their friends, relatives and neighbors are a big concern because they have the ability to bring everything to a horrid, horrid climax. Hospitals having to close or turn cancer and heart attack patients away, so many deaths the bodies can't be safely buried/cremated, critical institutions such as the fire and police departments understaffed, overworked and overstressed, the list is a long one.

Nearly 1 Million people have died from Covid in the USA and more than 1,000 are dying every single day. Our hospitals are begging for people to start paying attention to the rules/mandates/recommendations but it's all falling on too many deaf ears. And it will keep being like this until enough people start taking measures like social distancing, wearing a mask, avoiding crowds and yes, getting the vaccine.

It all just makes me very sad. When I asked our Activities Director to set aside a corner of our very large Clubhouse room for the veterans who wished to social distance during the Veteran's Day celebration, I was told that those who weren't comfortable should just stay home. My 94 yr. old friend who served in WWII and they wouldn't wear masks and give him 6 ft. of space so he could attend. A year and half later, when I see those people stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance, I throw up in my mouth a little.

[This message edited by josiep at 4:08 AM, Friday, January 7th]

Supply was not "cut", but the method of distribution did change. And it changed bc widespread use of the drugs due to DELTA created the shortage.

ALL of these drugs are/have been in short supply, and it seems to me the bureaucrats are doing the best they can to distribute to those for whom they will actually work - vs some willy nilly system. We went through similar issues with the vaccine early last year - in my state, the rural areas had THOUSANDS of doses and state/nat'l guard sponsored vax events, but bc of the low pop and vax hesitancy, thousands of doses went bad. GMC

You wrote an excellent post, gmc.

Where I live the monoclonal antibodies were/are available without a prescription. Anyone who wanted it could go to one of the distribution sites and get it. The one near my house is open 8 hrs. a day, 7 days a week. So yeah, the feds pushed back in order to make sure the people who need it the most get some.

When we can stop being so divisive...maybe we can actually HELP each other.

Unfortunately, where I live, anti-vax=anti-mask. It's very stressful so here's what I do and how it has worked out.

I went to a new hairstylist who works in her home. When I arrived, I was surprised that she wasn't wearing a mask. I kept mine on but then I said to her "I'm really sorry to bring this up but I have 2 friends in their 90's so I'm being extra careful and while I would never ask you if you've been vaccinated, I'm wondering if you could tell me so I know whether to keep my mask on the whole time, even when you're washing and cutting my hair."

She went into a long thing about how she can't wear a mask and can't have the vaccine and I accepted it and kept my mask on. I was perfectly fine with wearing my mask.

But lo and behold, about a week later, she went on a rant on her Facebook page about how people have no right to ask her if she's vaccinated or not and what scaredy-cat sheep we are if we wear a mask. I don't know for sure if it was me that set her off but regardless, there is nothing you can do to help me as long as people like her are so plentiful.

The next anecdote is about having to get a plumber to fix my toilet. When he arrived, I again, very politely and very humbly asked him about my mask and his vaccine status, if he was willing to share the info. His response: "Lady, I'm not vaccinated and I don't intend to get it and if you wanna wear a mask, be my guest but I'm not wearing one." I regret letting him in my house at all because I know he overcharged me and didn't actually fix the problem, but that's another story.

At any rate, I have never said an unkind word to anyone about any of this. I'm the one who wants to take precautions so I assume the burden of making the decision. I tried really hard to be civil and I was met with total hostility. So now I pretty much just stay away from people and get my groceries delivered and have postponed all my medical appointments. It's hard though cuz I've spent the last 4 1/2 yrs. trying to regain some semblance of "not suicidal" and am finally, at age 72, interested in rejoining the human race. But not if it's going to kill me.

We dont have many people come to the house normally so its never been to much of an issue.

Dd's meds are either delivered by courier or by the companies personal drivers. They always mask up before they leave their vehicle.

We had workers here to repair our garage door. They didnt have masks on. I had mine. Both workers voluntarily said they were both vaccinated even without me asking and seeing that they were working with the door open i didnt see an issue. The kids were all inside and i kept my distance. (Those big ass springs are scary. Pandemic or not i wouldnt have gotten close when they were winding them up lol)

I think everyone is just doing the best they can given the situation.

Sorry for the late reply, DH. Your last post to me sent me off down many various rabbit holes. Most of my thoughts and emotions got tangled up in the guideline that can’t be discussed here, so naturally I don’t have much to say. Hopefully that doc is right though and hopefully we will see an end. Followed quickly by the lawsuits required to remind the powers that be that they aren’t God.

My Daughter, an elementary school principal got sick over the weekend. She's fully vaxxed and has booster. She has been working her ass off to keep school going since our governor has vowed there will be no shutdowns. She's dealing with no available subs to teach so classes are doubled up and tripled up. She's dealing with students having hard times from losing one or both parents to covid.

I am MAD. I got in trouble on the respectful thread because I stated I have no sympathy or respect for those unvacciinate idiots who are dying from Covid. An exception to this is CHIILDREN as they don't have their own choice to be vaccinated or not. And it's horrible when they become orphans due to losing unvaccinated parents.

So now my daughter is sick. She was tested today because she's running a temp and generally feels lousy. She cannot go back to school until she gets a negative test. This young woman puts her LIFE into helping children. It's all she ever wanted to do. It must be Omicron that's she has picked up and I feel she will be okay but she's so stressed about worrying about 'her kids"

So THANKS stupid Governor for not allowing remote learning.
So THANKS stupid parents for not getting yourselves and your children vaccienated.
So THANKS to the idiots on social media who have made this political.

You are all worthless.

Yes I'm angry. Very.

And another thing -- while I am venting -- I have a very close friend in Ontario who is stage four cancer, home on hospice care. He probably has just a few weeks to live. His wife and adult children are helping him all they can. He has been fully vaccinated. He was unable to see a doctor sooner rather than later due to Covid. By the time he did get in for tests it was too late. The cancer had spread to vital organs. He has three brothers who follow the NO VAX routine and harassed HIM for getting vaccinated -- and they are demanding to go to his home and see him, putting stress on his wife and children. Selfish bastards they are! If I were his wife, I wouldn't even allow them to attend his memorial service when he passes.

I just wanted to chime in about people being upset about the closures.

I don't understand why people don't look at the simple logistics. Let's set aside all the arguments about how dangerous the virus is, or politics.

Schools simply cannot stay open because there won't be enough staff to operate them. Look at all the open industries right now; there's 20-30% absenteeism. The current rules about isolation specify if you or anyone else in your household has even a runny nose, you must isolate for 5-10 days depending on symptoms and vaccination status. Since there are no tests available, staff cannot test their way out of this isolation.

It's wintertime; lots of people have coughs or runny noses or other cold symptoms. Especially people with small children in the home, who are often boogerfests all winter long.

Would you rather schools were technically open, but on any given day you might suddenly find out there isn't enough staff to operate the school so it'll be closed anyway? Or if your child's teacher isn't there, instead of at least getting some appropriate coursework online, they'll be combined with another class and watching a movie instead?

Additionally... covid issues aside, I'd like to know that if I end up in a car accident or have a heart attack, that I will receive healthcare, and hopefully from staff who aren't exhausted and pulling triple shifts. Not taking as much care as possible to avoid getting covid causes direct harm to others by monopolizing those scarce healthcare resources especially in terms of staff hours.

DH, I'm also in Ontario. And I'm also frustrated at how people are pushing back at restrictions that are meant to keep our entire economy from shutting down.

Someone referenced this on either this thread or the other COVID thread, and I thought it was hyperbole. But it's a real thing - an anti-vax leader is encouraging his followers to drink their own urine to fight COVID. In two pictures shown of him side-by-side... in one he is wearing a top that has printed Vaccine Police on the chest. And in another picture, he is wearing that same shirt, holding a rifle, with three other rifles right next to him, leaning on his Mustang.

The only way I'm ever going to drink my urine, is if I'm severely dehydrated and there's no water in sight... like if I'm lost on a boat in the ocean in the middle of nowhere. Anyone see the Better Call Saul episode where he drinks his own urine in the desert?

"Anyone see the Better Call Saul episode where he drinks his own urine in the desert?"

That scene is exactly what I was picturing when reading about people drinking their own pee.