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I think pre-pandemic "normal" will never return. Not that we wont get past the pandemic but that misinformation has permanently destroyed faith in science in some areas. Many areas.

We will eventually get back to a form of normal when the virus no longer causes a risk of overwhelming our medical systems.

Thats been the WHOLE POINT of all the public health measures.

Reduce the number of critical care patients from the virus.

And it has been proven with reduced number of positive cases that public health measures do work. When they are followed.

When they are not followed you get this yoyo effect.

That is simply not true. COVID is more seasonal than anything. Just look at the swings between the warm climate states and cold climate provinces. Public health orders haven’t been proven effective, especially for Canadians, because there is no control to prove against. It’s one way and one way only for us.

[This message edited by Loukas at 4:15 AM, Thursday, January 6th]

COVID is more seasonal than anything.

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That is a very false statement. Just google the data. Covid doesn't discriminate -- any month will due. The data is plain on this.

My aunt and I began to argue about Covid the other day and I had to stop as I realized we will never see eye to eye about it, not just because of our political views differing, but because we have very different experiences with Covid as a whole.

Her life has not had to change all that drastically with the exception of the inconveniences it has caused. She still went to work, she still lived a fairly "normal" life. She was inconvenienced by closures. She was inconvenienced by visitation limitations while my mother was dying from cancer. She was inconvenienced by having to be made to "wear a diaper on her face."

My experience has been drastically different. I work in Skilled Nursing. I have been living a life where I never know what the new protocol is as it changes frequently based on knee knowledge. I have worked closely with patients with Covid, having one look directly into my eyes asking me if I am afraid to be with them and lying to them to provide comfort, only to him die the next day. I have contracted Covid from working with these patients. Honestly, the most sick I have ever been in my life. I am finally (a year later) feeling "mostly" recovered. I have my MIL in my facility, not doing well as a result of Covid.

I have been in the trenches. It is exhausting. It is not easy burden to be responsible for other’s loved ones let alone mine. I get tested twice a week.

The only people that understand my experience are the ones that have lived it.

You could say that when I became a therapist, this is what I signed on for. Except, when nurses were being given hazard pay bonuses, rehab companies were reducing pay. My compensation for a job well done during a tumultuous time was to be told in order to keep my job I had to accept a 10% pay cut to cover PPE and testing. When I got Covid, we didn’t fall under the umbrella that provided compensation for pay so I had to take that time off work unpaid.

I think it’s pointless to argue about Covid. No one will see eye to eye just like no one understands most anything unless they experience it (betrayal, parenthood, loss).

All we can ask for is a little compassion. People to do their part to make things a little easier, a little brighter. Sometimes that seems to much to ask too.

That is a very false statement. Just google the data. Covid doesn't discriminate -- any month will due. The data is plain on this.

I never said it won’t attack at any month, I said it’s seasonal. If you would have googled the data, you’d see. The southern states have different spikes than the northern states and Canadian provinces. We don’t get summer spikes, whereas those in the south, seeking shelter from the heat do. We both share winter spikes, but we’re all seeking shelter at that point. So no, it isn’t a false statement. It’s clear as day to read.

OK, riddle me this one, Batman.

I belong to a professional singing group. We started rehearsals in September and required everyone to be fully vaccinated. A singing mask was optional (I did not wear one). Out of the 30 people that rehearsed weekly and put on a concert in December, no one came down with COVID. No one. None.

Singing is a known "super-spreading" activity.

Was it the vaccination? Who knows.

Was it the fact that we were all very careful and did not show up to rehearsal if we felt ill? Who knows.

But I cannot believe that we did all of that, maybe 3-4 people wore masks and we had no spreading or transmission. Our conductor is a teacher, as are several in our group.

It comes back to the statistics. There is a wide gulf between dying or being hospitalized WITH COVID and dying or being hospitalized FROM COVID. I personally believe that the statistics aren't always indicative of the situation. I also believe there is a bit of fear-mongering going on. HOWEVER, I also believe that vaccination and taking appropriate personal precautions are equally important.

I will also say that vaccines are historically believed to prevent disease, so I do not fault those who believed that the vaccine would prevent them from becoming ill, despite all the latent information to the contrary. After all, how many breakthrough cases of measles or whooping cough do we see?

Another example of a highly complex problem seeking a simple (unrealistic) solution.

Cat

I'm going to offer this and then step out of this thread.
The numbers are UNREAL!!!!! My health system which employees 30K people has over 1500 people out currently that are positive, and another 200 that are waiting to be tested.

The hospitals, and the offices are running bare bones staffing in some situations. There are 2 PCP offices that had to remain closed, not just over the holiday (NY) but also this week because all the staff except a couple are out ill.
The system has also decided to cancel elective procedures that will not harm the patients to wait for 4 weeks. One thing they did say in our Town Hall meeting yesterday is that the patients that are getting admitted are having shorter length of stay, and are rebounding faster, which matches with what we are seeing on home monitoring patients.

If you think you have it PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Keep your ass at home. Do a home test, get groceries, and things delivered to your home.
Treat the following way. Acetaminophen (tylenol), and Ibuprofen for fever/aches and headache, and alternate doses, Mucinex for congestion (usually starts on day 2), Robitussin for cough (usually starts on day 3), Vitamins C, D, Zinc for supportive care, NAC if you can get it, this helps prevent it from worsening. Drink tons of water, add lemon to thin secretions, add honey to sooth, and quiet cough, Add humidity to your air with cool mist humidifier, or by simmering water on the stove all day. Use Vapor Rub to help open airways and quiet cough and sooth. Now the headache that comes with this is the real deal and will make you feel like death and it's at the beginning when the sore throat starts. If you drink caffeine daily continue to consume to minimize effect. If you aren't eating, do make sure you are drinking a couple protein shakes a day, your body needs the protein and fats to help you heal and recover.

The one good thing that may come out of this last surge is that we finally reach herd immunity.

The last thing I have to say is just be kind to one another. This virus doesn't care about your political views. Be kind. It's really that simple.

The southern states have different spikes than the northern states and Canadian provinces. We don’t get summer spikes, whereas those in the south, seeking shelter from the heat do. We both share winter spikes, but we’re all seeking shelter at that point. So no, it isn’t a false statement. It’s clear as day to read.

By simply referring to this as "seasonal" you diminish just how serious this virus is.

The spikes we see are due to human behaviour. Period.

More people INSIDE NOT FOLLOWING PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES causes a spike in cases.

If everyone wore masks properly, maintained physical distance. Washed their hands, stayed home when sick etc there would be less cases regardless of time of year.

The spike we are seeing right now in ON is due to people NOT doing those things over the holidays despite being asked to by public health.

My aunt and I began to argue about Covid the other day and I had to stop as I realized we will never see eye to eye about it, not just because of our political views differing, but because we have very different experiences with Covid as a whole.

I never expected to see eye to eye in this thread when I entered it. But rather enjoyed talking about it. You see in Canada it doesn’t matter what your political views are, all political parties treat COVID and COVID policies exactly the same. So it’s easy to say COVID isn’t political here. I realize that’s very different than what you Americans are facing.

The lack of political divide is how we achieved such high vaccination rates and mask use. Well, that and threats or mandates of stealing your freedoms and rights. In Canada, you can’t do much without a QR code anymore. I will admit, not having to cut through the political non-sense has been nice. However, if you don’t agree with public health orders, there is literally no where to escape. We don’t have one province that is even remotely willing to operate like Florida, for example. We have nowhere to go to get the governments thumb off our lives. And that is a problem, for those of us uninterested in the governments thumb being on our lives. And talking about it is even more pointless, because it falls on deaf ears, considering the large majority agree with the government.

For Canadians like me, we’re trapped. Caught between the fear mongering and the lack of a leader willing to try something different. There’s no sign of it getting better either, at least as far as policies are concerned, because so far all they’ve done is escalate. So being able to have a conversation about COVID, even if it’s with someone I won’t agree eye to eye with, has at the very least been therapeutic. It’s also been a very nice change from the typical COVID thread I’ve here on SI.

So being able to have a conversation about COVID, even if it’s with someone I won’t agree eye to eye with, has at the very least been therapeutic.

Totally agree .

We, in Canada, are definitely different than other places around the world. That i agree with.

And no i dont agree with everything that the powers that be do. I just dont think i delay in returning to in person learning should have caused such an uproar when the majority of people gathered against public health advice over the holidays.

None of my children would be in school this week anyways. At least one wouldn't pass the covid screening which means they ALL have to quarantine for the five days.

I suspect thats the case for many kids. At least this way they are getting to see their teacher and friends and get their lessons. And i have received calls and emails from teachers saying that we can do the work offline, even just printing it off so the kids can complete it that way. I just need to stock up on printer ink and paper.

Well, that and threats or mandates of stealing your freedoms and rights. In Canada, you can’t do much without a QR code anymore. 

I still need to get our QR codes downloaded.

Not stealing any rights or freedoms. A consequence. Public health measures still remain a reasonable limit to individual rights/freedoms under the charter.

By simply referring to this as "seasonal" you diminish just how serious this virus is.

Hardly, it’s simply following the patterns. To know when we are most at risk and when we are the least.

I’m beginning to realize why you don’t understand the resistance though. The level of compliance you appear to be expecting is total control. There will never be enough public health orders or enough compliance to satisfy your desires. It’s very easy to say the spikes are because people didn’t follow health orders. Once again another excuse for a failed solution.

So I’ll give you a little more info as to my families COVID situation. My fully vaxxed family gathered on Christmas Eve. No one had a single symptom or even a hint of illness. Pre-COVID, this gathering would include our aunts and uncles and our grandmother. As a pre-caution, since they are all far more vulnerable than my immediate family that is all below the age of 40, we face timed with them instead and they stayed home. Now, my brothers, their families and I all live within 200 feet of each other. I can see all their houses out of my window as I’m typing this. We rely on each other’s help a lot and spend a lot of time with each other all the time. Christmas is no exception. So to assume otherwise is purely ignorant.

On Boxing Day, my brother got a call from his mother in law that she tested positive for COVID (triple vaxxed, btw). Her and only her had stopped by my brothers place on the 23rd for a brief visit and to drop off Christmas presents for her grandchildren. At that point, all our families self isolated and have done so since, with the exception of COVID testing. As I said yesterday, we received the final test result yesterday.

Now I’m sure you are going to find some ridiculous excuse to justify how it wasn’t the public health orders that failed us, but at what point are you willing to accept that the public health orders aren’t the end all, be all? At what point are you going to accept that human beings do have lives and those lives are filled with risks. Pretending as though, folks are going to hunker down and avoid human contact until who knows when is simply unrealistic. We took precautions. We minimized risk. And this time, unlike any other time before, it failed us. That’s life. And it’s much more complicated than assuming our overlords can control anything by simply stating to never leave your house.

The person I sleep next to every night works in retail/wholesale. He's finally gotten hit. Exposed late last week, started feverish this past Sunday evening. Tested positive on a rapid test. He's fully vaccinated. Has had fever, headache, diarrhea, and general malaise/ick. No coughing, just a bit of tight chest and labored breathing at first. His second vaccine was back in May, I believe, had an appointment this week to get boosted, which obviously hasn't happened.

The differences between us? He smokes, I switched to vaping about 6 years ago. I have high blood pressure, take a multi-vitamin and fiber daily (lost my gall bladder a couple years ago), he has no known health issues. I got boosted a month or so ago when I was eligible.

I'm known to have a bit of a monster immune system, but I firmly believe that booster has kept me from getting ill. I still sleep next to him. I get PCR-tested every Thursday, so we'll see later if I'm negative or asymptomatic, but have been staying home and isolated anyway. My son lives with me, masking in the house and also boosted has shown no symptoms either.

I'll get however many boosters they tell me I need, because my experience has been that they work.

Loukas

Honestly i dont recall what exact day they issued the warnings about gathering at Christmas. Hell i dont even know if you are in Ontario, as i am. I do know that they stressed over snd over NOT to gather in large groups.

What i also know is that i would NOT have allowed my MIL to visit without being fully masked and keeping a 6ft distance.

At this point, with omicron you have to assume that everyone is potentially infected.

Today IS my families Christmas Eve. There will be no dropping off of gifts. No 12 course family dinner. 1. We respect the current public health mandates. 2. Even without them it is NOT worth the risk to my father who is battling cancer.

The level of compliance you appear to be expecting is total control. There will never be enough public health orders or enough compliance to satisfy your desires.

Ok firstly i have no desire or agenda. Geez. You can do whatever the hell you want.

Secondly do YOU follow the rules for driving? Wear your seat belt? Not drive while impaired? Not drive wrecklessly? Have current license and insurance?

Those are all things that are required to drive right? All things required for your safety and the safety of others. Otherwise you get fined, jailed, face consequences....

So is that compliance still control?

I said I was out last night, but needed to come back to this. I want to apologize for losing my cool. After months and months of anger and discontent, my soul just could not take it anymore and I purposely withdrew from any discussions about the whole thing.

This went absolutely as I should have expected it to and have no one to blame for the lack of peace in my soul last night but myself.

The only other statement I want to make is also most likely futile but I will remain true to myself and be my own advocate.

Loukas, I was never trying to denigrate the amount of risk and exhaustion associated with any other type of job when I made my statements about the hours we are working. However, we are not in a construction crisis. We are not in a retail crisis. We are not in a restaurant crisis. If a whole shift doesn't show up to work at Wendy's or Burger King today, nobody is gonna go hungry. We'll just drive to the next open drive thru or go home and make a sandwich.

When a shift of nurses and/or CNAs doesn't show up or gets sent home with COVID, we still have to take care of the patients we have. But only now with fewer staff, staff that have been up over 24 hours now or have worked 3 different shift patterns in the past 7 days. It's not safe, nor is it sustainable. But it's what we are doing.

I'm not asking for praise. I'm not saying nobody else out there has it hard. I am just weary and wondering how long I have left in me.

The only other statement I want to make is also most likely futile but I will remain true to myself and be my own advocate.

Not futile at all and you have my complete respect for remaining true to yourself and being your own advocate. I heard what you had to say, truly.

While I do have more to say on the subject, after yesterday, I’m not going to.

HFSSC

Hugs to you and every other person working through this pandemic.

You can do whatever the hell you want.

Well that simply isn’t true. The list of what I can’t do is long and grows regularly. I realize you don’t see vaccine mandates as discrimination, but they truly are. I’ve read enough threads on this site about coercion to know how outraged folks can be. Unfortunately this coercion gets shrugged at, and has caused very clear, unethical discrimination. One day, hopefully the majority will see it, but until then, the majority are complacent. When a majority of the population has the ability to do as they wish and the minority can’t, for nothing more than a personal choice that’s not consequences, it’s treating people unequally. Under our charter, we are all equal, period. If you have to add a but to that, you are already on the wrong side.

Yes I have a drivers license. Yes I do follow most of the LAWS while driving, but not all. Yes I can drive without following any of the laws. No I can’t enter an arena to play hockey with my friends due to a mandate, that option only exists with a QR code. Very different than an actual law. I can put people’s lives at risk in a vehicle while being intoxicated, or without a license or insurance, I can due it all illegally and face those consequences should I choose to do so. But I can’t jump on a plane to visit a family member due to a mandate. Do you see the difference in control?

[This message edited by Loukas at 6:34 PM, Thursday, January 6th]

I did not sleep at all last night so bear (bare?) With me...

Yes i see the difference. The point of view i have is that the powers that be make the mandates they do based on the best advice from the experts.

Not everyone is going to agree with those experts and we have the freedom to express that disagreement.

What none of us have the right or freedom to do is express our dissatisfaction with violence (or threats of violence). We all have freedom of speech UNless its hateful and racist for example.

The fact is right now the experts believe vaccination is the route to better protecting everyone as a whole.

Now i am not for forced vaccination. Especially if someone has already had covid and has antibodies. I am for chosing an option to give myself and my family a better result, less chance of hospitalization. Which is what we did.

Scientific data still shows a higher level of antibodies in vaccinated vs unvaccinated, as shown in an excerpt from a report released today:

Canadian Blood Services is testing the presence of antibodies which fight COVID-19 in blood samples from donors over 17 years of age every month. It detected a big immunity boost last summer after Canadians got their second vaccine shot. But in September, it noticed that antibodies that could fight the virus were waning in people over the age of 70.

A Canadian Blood Services report completed this week, analyzing blood donated in October, shows that among all donors, from 17 year olds to pensioners, immunity had decreased.

Sheila O’Brien, associate director of epidemiology and surveillance at Canadian Blood Services said it was "uniquely positioned to provide information about the presence of COVID-19 antibodies in a large number of people across Canada relatively quickly." 

She said antibodies that could fight the virus were significantly higher in vaccinated than unvaccinated people. 

"About 2 weeks after vaccination, antibody levels peak and then gradually decrease," she added. 

Evans predicted that waning immunity, measured in the blood, would continue to show up in November and December data. But he said the task force would study if there has been a boost in immunity with more and more people contracting Omicron. 

The task force’s findings on waning immunity influenced the government to offer vaccine booster shots to vulnerable groups such as transplant patients with weaker immunity and older people.

Dr. Bruce Mazer, an immunologist and associate scientific director of the COVID-19 Immunity Task Force, said that even with waning levels of antibodies in the blood, the body’s immune system has a cellular memory of a virus and can mobilize to fight it. He said people who have been vaccinated, have had the virus, or both, generate cellular immunity.  

 "Other parts of the immune system are waiting and act as sentries," he said. "You have T-cell memory which helps fight the virus and B-cell memory that helps to make fresh groups of antibodies."

The McGill professor said the task force is currently studying this backup immune response, as well as the immune response to the Omicron variant which he said has 50 mutations, compared to the original COVID-19 virus.

Other things on my mind or maybe the same. Again im tired.

Why wouldnt anyone want the best possible protection against the virus even if their chances are statistically less for dying. Theres always a chance right. Young healthy people gave died from covid.

Every medical treatment and drug has risks. There will be adverse effects.

It also bugs me that because we have variants that are affecting the vaccinated in a worse way that suddenly the vaccine is considered useless.

Its been widely stated that the vaccines were never going to be a cure or result in NO infection. Its simply an early warning system for your body to recognize the virus as a bad thing and act sooner. Acting sooner to kill the virus means less virus in ones system and less chance of spread. Less isnt 0.

The vaccines were based off the original strain. This virus is doing what Mother Nature intended. Trying to survive. Its mutating. Omicron has 50 mutations compared to the original covid.

Since they still believe vaccination is better protection than no vaccine its in the best interests of public health to get as many vaccinated as can be, reduce chances of contact through gathering in large groups, make masks a requirement indoors, temporarily close venues where those measures cannot be controlled until the case counts drop enough where our hospitals arent overwhelmed.