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For those who have read through Linda MacDonald's book, you may be familiar with the "Detain and Torture" that she describes in her introduction. For those who aren't, here is an excerpt:

4. Make a bungled, haphazard effort to save the marriage.

This option is usually chosen by a well-intentioned partner who is clueless about the depth of the damage caused by his/her unfaithful behavior. In his or her efforts to calm the hurting partner, the betrayer often says things like, "You should be over this by now" or, "I said I was sorry!" or, "What else do you want me to do? I can’t take it back."

The rely-on-my-own-judgment approach usually magnifies the pain and leads to a more drawn out blood-letting of the marriage until it dies.

I call this the "Detain and Torture Option."

I have been in something between this one and #3 (which is the "Negligent Homicide" description). It sucks. Really sucks.

That leads me to the new Bond movie. If you haven't seen it and don't want it spoiled, read no further. What I'm about to write speaks of the ending. Last warning: if you don't want the new Bond movie spoiled...STOP READING NOW

**** Spoiler Alert ****

Hopefully, that was enough to get those who don't want to know the time to hit the back button. For those of you still here, here it comes:

In the last act of the film, Bond learns that he has fathered a child. He also still cares deeply for her mother. In the end, he sacrifices himself for the two of them.

As I watched, I was moved to tears. Not because of Bond's sacrifice, but because I don't think I would ever do that again. For my kids, certainly. For my wife...not so much.

Not that I don't care. It's not that. It's more along the lines of "I've already given myself up. I've already died from the A. And has there been any semblance of gratitude? Nope. Not a thing."

That's what moved me. No "Thank you for multiple chances and not giving up." No "I don't deserve this." No "How can I help you?" Nothing.

It sucks to come to this realization.

It's sad to hear this, Captain. Has this impacted any of your thoughts on the other recent issues you have been having?

Damn, I thought things were going well for you, and that your new MC was helping out a lot. I knew you had a bit of a backslide, but damn, this is disappointing to hear.

And I know all to well about option 4. This is my situation too. My wayward wife is supposed to be coming home Tuesday, so we'll see if she wants to address anything, or if we move to D.

FWIW Captain, making the decision to D and think about some future loving relationship has brought me a lot of peace.

Godspeed to you sir, and I'm so sorry for your troubles.

(((HUGS)))

Has this impacted any of your thoughts on the other recent issues you have been having?

Thoroughly, neko. I have a lot to work through and, frankly, it all hit like a ton of bricks.

There is a massive amount of stress going on right now, from work to walking into A season to all of a sudden everything seems to be falling apart (flat tires on 2 vehicles, need new bearings on my truck, the stove top quit working, just lots of totally unrelated little stuff happening all at once...), so this is definitely not the time to make any major decisions.

However, exactly what I foresaw at our last MC session came to fruition. When Mrs. Cap said that she was willing to talk/listen and I gave her the "bull$#!@" look and the MC asked "what was that look?"...and I told her that I don't believe those words...

Yeah, so I got asked last night what was wrong, I said "I'm totally stressed right now." And instead of offering to "talk" (which is what MC told her to do), she turned and walked away and didn't say a word the rest of the night.

I have nothing left to give.

she turned and walked away and didn't say a word the rest of the night.

(((CaptainRogers))) it's an awful feeling. I remember when my xWS did this to me. He couldn't be bothered with how I felt EVER, even now separated he is only concerned about his feelings.

You deserve better.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 4:52 PM, Monday, October 11th]

I'm really sorry, Cap.

I can't help thinking, 'Truth hurts less than lies.' I believe that almost totally. I know that belief could be wrong - but it's all I've got for me, for you, for every- and anybody.

And I believe that the more accurately one perceives their reality, the better the choices that will be made. That I do believe totally.

As painful as this realization is, it's a step in the right direction for you.

But I really wish your W were in good enough shape to give you the support you deserve....

(((CaptainRogers)))

(((CaptainRogers)))

Sorry that your WW isn't changing. You have taken a bullet (or several hundred) for your M, similar to 007. Unfortunately, your WW has holding the gun.

This option is usually chosen by a well-intentioned partner who is clueless about the depth of the damage caused by his/her unfaithful behavior.

I think it's important to remind you that your wife flat-out admitted that she has been intentionally cruel to you and has said, done, and also not done certain things to purposefully keep you anxious and off balance.

She knows what she's doing to you and she enjoys it.

He couldn't be bothered with how I felt EVER,

That part thoroughly sucks, crazyblindsided. What I have a harder time with is her saying in our MC session less than a week ago that she wants to listen and that she wants to be supportive...but at the first opportunity, she runs away.

in our MC session less than a week ago that she wants to listen and that she wants to be supportive...but at the first opportunity, she runs away.

Could you have stated that clearly in the moment? I'm not picking the fly crap out of the pepper here. Someone (Sisoon?) said on another thread that part of what is broken post A is your ability to read body language and such. That you have to specifically state what you want or need. I don't mean for that to sound like you are leading the R. But your statement of "I'm feeling really stressed right now" is not directly addressing what you are feeling. I think you need to clearly state what you are feeling and remind them of their stated desire to listen and support you, then if they walk away there is no debate later about what was meant and it still gives them the opportunity to lead the R by stepping up at the time of stated hurt and figure out something they can do to help.

For instance, if she were to be confronted at the next MC session with what you described above, could she plead ignorance of not realizing that it was A related and point to all of the stressors you mentioned as evidence? Again I'm not trying to be critical, but sometimes we can play the "Guess-What-I'm-Mad-About" game without realizing it because we just have poor communication skills and we tend to think that it should be obvious.

And if that is unhelpful feel free to ignore.

If any of my friends or even a co-worker said they were totally stressed right now, I would stop and ask a few questions. What were they stressing about, what would help them feel better, do they want a listening ear or suggestions to help? (Vent vs. Advice)

Even a simple, "Tell me about your day" would show empathy rather than avoidance.

What we don't know is what your WW was thinking or not.

For instance, if she were to be confronted at the next MC session with what you described above, could she plead ignorance of not realizing that it was A related and point to all of the stressors you mentioned as evidence?

The thing is, she couldn't point to any of my stressors because she won't engage. And regardless of whether my stress is A-related or not, it's the lack of engagement that is the problem.

She could certainly plead something, but for me to say "I'm stressed" and for her to turn and walk away...that's 100% avoidant behavior, regardless of what I'm feeling stressed about.

Sadly, it sounds to me like Mrs. Cap has no interest in doing anything unless her nose is constantly being held to the grindstone by this particular marriage counselor. And I question outloud her internal resentment level over it.

With recent backsliding due to length of time between appointments and this most recent example - is there a long term plan?

duplicate

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:45 PM, Tuesday, October 12th]

is there a long term plan?

Working on one.

Again, Mrs Capt is not avoidant; in fact, I think she instigates and relishes conflict when she's certain that she will have the upperhand. If she was actually conflict avoidant, she would've pretended not to notice that you seemed upset.

She deliberately sent you a message that she doesn't care that you're in pain and won't tolerate any criticism. She knew there would be no consequences for walking away from you. All you you ever do in these situations is marinate in your misery until the next therapy session, whenever that occurs. Score: Mrs Capt - 1,458,999 CaptainRodgers - 2

If there's one disadvantage to your otherwise outstanding therapist it's the fact that you've become dependent on her to hold your wife accountable instead of taking your wife to task or advocating on your own behalf. If you did, it wouldn't matter quite as much whether there were 2 months or 2 weeks between sessions because you would be setting a standard for what you expect in your marriage.

We often tell people on SI not to pay any attention to a person's words, only their actions. Your wife has told you 2 things in the past that conflict one another: (A) She doesn't love you and has deliberately done things to hurt you and make you anxious. (B) She is sorry for how she's treated you and wants to work on being a better partner for you.

Based on her actions, which one of these statements do you think is true?

First off.

((CaptainRodgers)

(Akward one pat on the back man hug)

I have nothing left to give.

I think you are wrong here. You have plenty left to give, but you don't get anything in return. You have shown tremendous resolve, compassion, grace and even love by trying to R with your W. Don't short sell yourself.

You are burned out by trying to R by yourself. I think you need to change the distancer and pursuer dynamic. The best thing you can implement is the 180.

You need some perspective and honestly your efforts have kept your wife from hitting rock bottom. She needs to see that you will not stick it out no matter what.

Read that last sentence again.

Right now she takes you for granted. She assumes that as long as she doesn't cheat again you will keep pursuing her. She does not fear losing anything. She has come ro terms with the new normal. dishonesty amongst roommates that have kids together.

FWIW I think you need to stop working on R. Now. You need to focus on why you are repeating the same patterns and expecting different results.

Your wife's words are not matching her actions. Unless something changes this is what the rest of your life will look like. She might not be cheating now, but she is essentially still a ,"dry," wayward wife.

I am really sorry, but I think it is time to try something different. You are entitled to be happy in your life and the more I read your posts the more I think that happiness is best acheived within in you versus someone who doesn't appear to have the skills or motivation to change. She'd prefer to run out the clock on your shared life together.

I doubt that is what you really want in your future.

ETA- I fixed some typos

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 4:14 PM, Tuesday, October 12th]

Cap - I think I mentioned this to you recently, but it bears mentioning again. I recommend you discuss at your next MC session what you’ve been experiencing. The next statement should be that you are setting a firm deadline on changes that you expect your WW to make. This should be presented in writing. You need to include that if your WW can’t meet this deadline and finally commit to real R, then you want to move to a mediated divorce settlement.

Of course, this assumes that you’re willing to lose the M. At this point, what are your expectations otherwise?

Very sorry to hear this Cap. I feel as if I was in your situation - I was the one being understanding, I was the one trying, I was the one insisting on counseling, being vulnerable, asking for what I need, etc. WH chose not to give me what I need. He didn't appreciate that I was trying to be understanding instead of kicking him in the jewels and kicking his butt out the door on DDay. I think because I didn't do that, he felt he had the upper hand. He knows how important my vows and marriage are to me and that I would do almost anything to stay married. That just made him take advantage. Saying I was the one who needed to make the effort because I was so horrible he had no choice but to cheat to get what he needed and deserved.

Needless to say, I wouldn't do anything to stay married. I've had enough and filed for D. I finally realized I was the one doing all the work and I always would be. There was no remorse. What I got was "just show me 2% effort and I will make the effort". Yes, he expected me to make the effort first, as if just being there and trying to heal without his help wasn't enough. I realize there really weren't any consequences for WH even when I thought there were. Now the consequence is D. He is very spiteful and still trying to control what happens (my attorney is taking charge and I do not speak with WH at all about it). Obviously, I am not worth it to him because when served with D papers, he didn't fight for me or our marriage. He just fought to make sure he gets what he believes to be a fair settlement. Wish I did this a long time ago.

When she shows you who she is, believe her. Is that who you want to be married to? Take care of yourself, and stop being concerned with what will happen with your marriage. Work on yourself and then see what happens. Try not to be outcome oriented, but self-improvement and self-care oriented. Easier said than done I know. I just wanted to save my marriage but now I realize it shouldn't be saved. It is not healthy for me and he won't change. I can't speak about your M or your WW, but I think you should do some deep digging and self-reflection to see what it is you're fighting for. Wishing you the best and many hugs.