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"I'm sorry you felt steamrolled. I can understand why you would have that perspective. Please forgive me."

Wow.

No Cap. That's not straight like she read it out of a textbook. Straight out of a textbook would have been:

"I'm sorry I MADE YOU feel steamrolled. I can understand why you are upset with the way I acted. I should have done better, I will keep trying to do better, and I hope you can forgive me."

Instead she shifted the blame onto you having feelings, and simultaneously told you how wrong those feelings were. That is unacceptable. It's an attempt to be more covert in her manipulation. Your kids do deserve better than to have to watch this. You deserve better too.

She was like this before the infidelity, though, so it isn't just some thing where she hates herself for what she did, etc. It sounds like this is just who she is. Spending time untangling why a person behaves like this is time not spent on getting away from people who do this.

Where did this making dinner idea come from?

Her explanation yesterday (because I never got one before) was that she thought she had the capacity to do it, so she decided to take it over.

I asked if it crossed her mind to ask if I wanted her to do it. Maybe I like it. Maybe I find it relaxing after a day at work. Maybe I enjoy serving my family. But instead, I told her that she just waltzed in, said "get out of the kitchen" and took it away.

And THAT (I told her) is what it all boils down to. Never thinking about me. Never thinking about a relationship. Only thinking of a task and getting mad when something goes wrong with her planned task. All task. No relationship.

No Cap. That's not straight like she read it out of a textbook.

What I meant was that it was a textbook version of a rote response. No apology. No emotion. Just whatever points were memorized so they could be regurgitated.

"Rote" is a weirdly triggering word for me. I remember distinctly having to define it for my then therapist.

What triggered my own failed R and eventual divorce was seeing the pattern in my WW behaviour. What you (and I) called "rote".

I saw a pattern in her behaviour I once chalked up to circumstances. Point being I actually found a level of comfort and finality in it. It drove home the idea she is what she is.

People who feel empathy show empathy. She was gone the day that got handed out. The sad truth is sometimes there is no there there.

I'm going to point out that if woman had been spoken to like in front her children...there would be an outcry here. Not a suggestion that she be examined for depression or told that she should allow her spouse to have a bad day or that it's progress that he apologize for berating her over something as trivial as helping him prepare dinner.

Especially not in front of her children.

She would be given the number to domestic hotline and provided validation that his behavior is unacceptable and is in fact abuse.

Cap...I can't tell you what to do about your marriage. But I can assure you that you wouldn't want your son or daughter to spoken like that by their partner.

Cap, I'm glad you see this for what it is. It is abuse. It is unacceptable. I think Prissy is right that if you were a woman, there would be more of an outcry on your behalf. I know you've said before some of the struggles your children have faced by also being targeted by Mrs. Cap in the past. I have to wonder if witnessing these outbursts are triggering for them too.

She has admitted before to acting this way to intentionally hurt you. It sounds like you were a convenient punching bag in that moment for whatever frustrations she was feeling before she got home and her "apology" shows she feels entitled to taking out that frustration on you given how she dismissed your feelings over it. According to Gottman's research on abusive marriages, the biggest indicator that abuse will continue is when the abusive spouse minimizes, forgets, and/or feels entitled to their abusive behavior. It doesn't sound like she will be stopping this any time soon.

Her explanation yesterday (because I never got one before) was that she thought she had the capacity to do it, so she decided to take it over.

I asked if it crossed her mind to ask if I wanted her to do it. Maybe I like it. Maybe I find it relaxing after a day at work. Maybe I enjoy serving my family. But instead, I told her that she just waltzed in, said "get out of the kitchen" and took it away.

When Mrs. Cap walked in, she started by berating me with "I TOLD YOU two weeks ago that I was doing dinner. What didn't you understand about that?"

I turned and walked away. She followed. We had a short "discussion" where I told her that I was sick and tired of her inability to have a relationship and that I was done. I said "You never once asked me.if I wanted you to take over dinner. Not once. And a 'Thank you, you didn't have to do the prep work. I appreciate it.' would have been a helluva lot more relational than scolding me for doing it."

Her response to that? "Well, I guess I still have things to work on. 😪

Here's my question.. When she made this announcement, did you tell her that her plan wasn't going to work for you? She just announces that she's taking over this task from now on, and you said... ??? Did you maybe not hear her at the time or did you just think, well.. we can straighten this out later? What was her motivation? Did she think she was taking a chore off your plate, or did she not like your cooking, or was there some other reason for her to think that she should take over the cooking?

I'll be honest with you, if I told my fWH specifically that I was taking over a particular chore and came home to find him doing it, I'd be wondering why. Why would she say something like that to you?.. "what didn't you understand about that?" It's a really defensive remark, don't you think? If I sit with it a minute and try to imagine what might motivate me to say those particular words, I'm feeling defensive. So, what might she have been defending?

Anyway, I'm not sure what your expectations are about R. Maybe you thought that if you accepted your WW back into the marriage that she would become this perfect partner in gratitude for your mercy and that it would make all that pain worthwhile. But that hasn't been my experience AT ALL. Sure, my fWH has repaired the crappy character which allowed him to say "yes" to cheating, but he's still the same person in so many ways. He's still got the same weird habits that drive me crazy sometimes just like he always has. The difference now is that he's resolved his sexual entitlement issues and repaired his relationship with his own values system. But does he still smart-mouth me when he thinks he's right? Damned straight he does. Is he always right?.. not by a long shot. Even in an otherwise successful R, there's still shit we put up with if we love our fWS and want to stay with them. It's never going to be the 24/7 ass-kissing that we DESERVE after magnanimously accepting back someone who hurt us so intimately. The FACT though is that we've been hurt in the most intimate way possible and we are NOT required to forgive that person or accept them back into our lives. If you don't like or don't want your WW anymore, why aren't you acting on that?

I'm going to point out that if woman had been spoken to like in front her children...there would be an outcry here. Not a suggestion that she be examined for depression or told that she should allow her spouse to have a bad day or that it's progress that he apologize for berating her over something as trivial as helping him prepare dinner.

Especially not in front of her children.

She would be given the number to domestic hotline and provided validation that his behavior is unacceptable and is in fact abuse.

THAT. She would be told to read "Why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft and had it explained to her that often emotional/verbal abuse escalates to physical when you try to leave. We would tell her to find a safe place. To leave the home and have backup there when she did to ensure that this didn't turn violent. No one would be trying to figure out whether he meant it or not or whether the man's childhood made him this way. We would be concerned for her in an entirely different way. I'm seeing the sexism in this too.

I'll be honest with you, if I told my fWH specifically that I was taking over a particular chore and came home to find him doing it, I'd be wondering why. Why would she say something like that to you?.. "what didn't you understand about that?" It's a really defensive remark, don't you think? If I sit with it a minute and try to imagine what might motivate me to say those particular words, I'm feeling defensive. So, what might she have been defending?

What abusive person isn't defending themselves against the ineptitude of their partners when they say cruel abusive things? My son left the lid to our deep freezer wide open yesterday for who knows how many hours even after I've asked him to make sure it closes several times. I didn't shame him. I asked him if he left it open. He said "Oh no. I might have. I probably wasn't paying attention." I responded "We have to be careful about that because if you leave it open it will ruin all of our food and it might stop working altogether." He said "I'm so sorry, if it's broken let me know and I'll pay to fix it". Situation resolved without making him feel like an idiot even though I was rightfully angry and frustrated. What I didn't say and what would have been abuse was "I told you to pay attention to the freezer door. What didn't you understand about that?" He would have left that conversation feeling shamed and hurt and the freezer would have been the last thing on his mind. His mom being an asshole would have been all that mattered. I don't speak to him that way because I respect him. I love him. I value our relationship. It is not even a little bit worth hurting him to speak that way.

Count me on the side of not giving the most minor of fucks why she said that to him or what she was feeling or even who was right about the cooking or if his cooking is somehow magically worse than mine. I don't care. It doesn't matter. Once you speak to someone that way, you've crossed the line and become toxic and your feelings are now irrelevant in the situation.

Anyway, I'm not sure what your expectations are about R. Maybe you thought that if you accepted your WW back into the marriage that she would become this perfect partner in gratitude for your mercy and that it would make all that pain worthwhile.

I think we're beyond expectations of R after infidelity. We're in a "should I stay with an abusive partner" situation. He tried to R in an abusive relationship. I sincerely hope that your WS is not speaking to you like this and that you're not thinking this is just normal spousal interactions. If it is, marriage should be abolished altogether. That's awful. I don't speak to or allow anyone else to speak to me that way. My serial cheating XWH didn't even speak to me this way.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 3:26 AM, Saturday, October 23rd]

Sorry, Dee, but I'm not seeing the abuse in that remark. Is it surly, defensive, even rude? Sure. Abusive? I don't think so. Maybe if there's a long history of verbal contempt (Four Horseman), but if verbal contempt is rare, no.

My opinion isn't important though. If Cap feels his wife is "abusive" that's what matters, and if so, he'd be wise to go ahead and file so he can move on with his life and be happy.

Mrs. Cap has a long history if emotional and verbal abuse. This is not an isolated incident...not by far.

Sorry, Dee, but I'm not seeing the abuse in that remark. Is it surly, defensive, even rude? Sure. Abusive? I don't think so. Maybe if there's a long history of verbal contempt (Four Horseman), but if verbal contempt is rare, no.

Anyone who said that to me would be in for a rather upsetting response. It's pretty textbook abuse. And it's not a one-off. CaptainRogers has said for years that this is how she speaks to him and she has admitted as such in therapy and admitted that she did it to hurt him.

My first marriage was full of comments like this. I didn't see it as abuse at the time because I had it in my head somehow if I reacted angrily back I wasn't being abused. I was very wrong about that. I stood up for myself with a corresponding level of anger and disrespect, but that was just an absolute train wreck and made me into someone unpleasant as well. "What the hell are you cooking that for? That's going to be awful. Just great, I won't be able to eat tonight". Stares directly into his eyes and drops the entire pot of food into the trash can and then leaves to get myself some takeout. "How many times have I told you that this is not the right brand of toilet paper?" Response "Who the fuck made you the god of toilet paper? Fuck off or start buying it yourself. Or don't wipe your ass. Whatever." Yes, that works out so well in a marriage. That is an unhealthy toxic dynamic and it damages you. It damaged me despite the fact that I didn't technically take it. Constantly having the person you're supposed to love and trust treating you like an idiot is abusive. I bet he could list pages of stuff she's said along these lines.

The worst part of it, the absolute worst, is that you know you're being abused, you feel the effects of the abuse, but no one sees it. They excuse it away. They say "it's just words". They wonder what you did to prompt such comments.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 4:39 AM, Saturday, October 23rd]

If this were a woman...NO WAY would this be dismissed.

No way would she be given the side-eye for taking a "chore" away from her husband. He came home....after attending a child event..after knowing Ms. Cap had physical therapy and starting prepping dinner for his children in his house.

I bet it would be reamed a new one by Mrs. Cap and some posters if he was sitting on his ass when she came in. If she was tired from physical therapy and he didn't offer to help...he would have been an insensitive ass. He can't win.

Cap has NEVER asked for perfection. Never. Not once. He has asked for her to speak and act with care and compassion. And she has constantly failed to do so while expecting him to read her mind and bend to her manipulative will to make her feel better.

I do not see Mrs Cap as a lost cause as a human being. I do see her as a person who lacks the qualities of a good partner.

I can very well see Cap's deciding to separate or D. I wouldn't question that. If Cap decides to stay, I will ask (if no one else does), 'How are you going to set emotional support for yourself? How will you feel good about yourself while under repeated attack? How will you be effective at work, with your kids, and with your community unless you feel good about yourself?'

Understanding why a person does something nasty may be close to forgiving the nastiness, but it's very different from allowing oneself to be hurt again and again. One can have a lot of sympathy and empathy for a spouse with, say, a mental illness or an addiction, but that doesn't mean one has to stay with them.

I think I am very different from CR, but he is intelligent, insightful, and creative. Six kids boggles is far from my experience, but I imagine they make it much harder to ditch a lousy partner. I can see Cap figuring out how to stay true to his values, to stay with Mrs Cap, and to get the emotional support I think he needs.

One way out of the abusive situation is D. If Cap can find a way to stay with his W and to stay healthy emotionally, I'll be happy for him - ETA, because he so clearly does not want D.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:06 PM, Tuesday, October 26th]

I don't think Mrs Cap is a lost cause. I also don't think anyone else has said that either. What I do think is the chance of Mrs Cap becoming a safe and healthy spouse right now are low. I'm baffled that given her track record and cognitive symptoms she has not been given some kind of diagnosis and has been offered treatment however I wonder if maybe that is because Mrs Cap struggles greatly with admitting to issues or even acknowledging them in the first place meaning her doctors and IC are unaware of her memory problems and quick temper.

Who knows if Mrs Cap will ever get the proper help and truly commit to changing. It's been 4 years, nearly 5, and every progress made has been walked back in a matter of weeks/months. She's gotten some of the best MC possible and still it's not enough to produce real and meaningful change. The prognosis is not good. Cap is quickly running out of options that allow him to be safe, healthy, and stable that don't involve him having to remove himself from the dysfunction.

Edit: I don't think it's possible for Cap to remain with Mrs Cap as she is right now and simply IC away all the negative effects of her abuse. Evidence and research doesn't support that theory. It would be like telling someone with lung cancer they can just work around it without quitting smoking and be healthy. Doesn't work that way. Staying in an abusive environment is the antithesis to emotional health and Mrs Cap at minimum would have to stop these demeaning outbursts for good for it to be possible for him.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 6:04 PM, Saturday, October 23rd]

I'm baffled by responses indicating that cap is overreacting. Is he supposed to wait decades for his wife to not treat him like a chore that she hates??

I agree that she has shown you who she is a thousand times and has absolutely no intention or capacity to change. She is likely undiagnosed with a serious issue or just completely emotionally immature and will stay that way. It is unhealthy for children to see her treat cap this way and he has been infinitely patient.

I agree with his assessment that enough is enough. At some point, the tipping point is reached and there is no going back. How much can a person be expected to take?!?!

I am not sure if it matters if Mrs. Cap is redeemable/reform-able or not. At the moment she isn't capable. For the past several years post d-day she hasn't changed nor come clean about the extent of her betrayal. It is clear that at this time she isn't able to extend empathy for Cap and nor is she really interested in his well-being or overcoming her own shame/fear/whatever. What matters is more of the same seems to be a dead end so something has to change. Furthermore, she is capable of ongoing abusive and harsh behavior that is detrimental to Cap, the children and the family. It is destructive rather than constructive.

She has to go on her own journey. She isn't able to be on a journey with anyone without hurting them. It is time for others to protect themselves from her.

My hope is she does find a way to overcome her issues but it won't happen under the current conditions.

(((Cap))) I hope you find what you need and can break away from the patterns that are so destructive and abusive.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 7:59 PM, October 23rd (Saturday)]

Cap, it took me FIVE years AFTER my wife moved out on my kids and me for me to finally figure it out and divorce her. FIVE YEARS. AFTER she was gone.
I can't fault you for the stress and I can't fault you for not knowing what to do. It's part of the game. But. You gotta now get INTO the game, play some defense, find out what plays you can call and execute. Enuff football for ya? lol OK. This is the time, now, you gather yourself, calculate the cost of stays vs leaving. I can almost guarantee you you'll need a ream of paper for the leaving side.
Read my profile, you'll see. Six affairs, abuse, I was under that same stress, felt worthless and inhuman.
And this was my second AFFAIR marriage. First one wife was a serial affair (WAY more than six), AND produced a child I found out was not mine biologically. So, I can talk at length about stress. That can be a powerful motivator, so use it to move on. You deserve decency and companionship and friendship and calmness. Not to say there won't be times of strife and argument in any relationship, there always is, but it doesn't need to be fatal.
Even is Mrs. Cap becomes Woman of the Year for Companionship, something has been lost. You know it. It's like a dog that is struck by its master daily. Pretty soon it comes to expect it, may even wag its tail when it knows it will get hit, but, deep down, the dog wants love, not acid.
Strength Cap, strength.