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Fantastic post and advice, BTA; I concur.

Cap, I am so sorry that you're still dealing with this - truly.

Sending strength & peace,

Lala

I have nothing left to give.

I am so-o-o very sorry. She truly doesn’t realize what she is giving up.

I’ll never forget the night I played "Say Something, I’m Giving Up On You" for my wife, telling her that was where I was right then. I told her I could not keep on unless she opened up, talked, and quit going silent when things got uncomfortable for her. I reminded her that ALL OF THIS was terribly uncomfortable for me since d-day, but I didn’t want to give up. However, if she chose to not participate, I couldn’t go on, didn’t have anything left to fight for. When was that? I think it was over two years ago. And I am just now seeing what I need, maybe, this year. Unfortunately I think she had to witness my physical pain reach a level she had not seen before to see how emotionally I had no strength left to deal with the pain. And she has begun the process of recommitting herself to me, and to us.

Unfortunately it doesn’t sound like your wife can, nor cares enough, to commit. I thought we were stuck there for a long time, and I withdrew into my pain and my illness and depression. I wasn’t suicidal, but I was ready to give up. I didn’t even have the strength to take care of myself.

You do, and you must. You are the only functioning adult left in the room.

I think that's the point. You shouldn't have to give anything until and unless she does. She has taken, and irrespective of the M prior to infidelity, she broke her vows and still has not come clean about the extent of the affair. What I mean is even though it takes two to be in an M and two to R, the conditions of starting R really haven't been met by her, so the two is really one and thus it isn't working.

It seems as if the glasses are finally and completely clear - you see her and it is beyond disappointing. That is heartbreaking of course. The outcome of this isn't what you wanted for you nor for your children.

There is a difference between a WS who wants to change and be a better partner but is so stuck in shame their actions don't match their desires, and, a WS who is not capable of empathy and therefore can never really be a partner. I think you have the latter and that's weighing heavy on you right now.

What do you plan for your next steps?

At some point Cap you just have to say WTF. Went through this twice in 41 years, two different wives, cheaters both but of a different type each time. Fist time, child that was born in marriage but not fathered by me made it easy to just go (and get custody!). Second time, marrying right on the heals of the divorce, and then seeing a half-dozen years into the marriage the cheating activity and then it went on and on and on and on and on and on and I was just locked into doing nothing because I was petrified of having to go thru the divorce BS all over again. Fortunately, XWWS decided to just LEAVE me and the kids (three at home then) and go live with her married AP. It STILL took me four years to file, to push her thru the divorce. Was worth it. I'm SINGLE again, getting my kids through this (still tough, their mother is one of the most ridiculously "i don't really care about my kids, do you?" mothers I have ever seen.)

If there is anything worth saving in yours, you deep-down know. You deep-down know if, after ANY sort of reconciliation, there can be trust between the two of you, real, gut-wrenching, I will walk with you through anything trust to keep on with what you have. You know. And you also KNOW what you need to do.

Hang in there Cap. One way or the other you know what you need to do.

[This message edited by katmandude54 at 12:56 PM, Thursday, October 21st]

At some point Cap you just have to say WTF.

That point would have been last night.

Got home from my oldest daughter's Regional Championship race (where she set a new school record, by the way). Mrs. Cap was at physical therapy (and would be stopping for groceries on the way home). So, I started prepping for dinner.

When Mrs. Cap walked in, she started by berating me with "I TOLD YOU two weeks ago that I was doing dinner. What didn't you understand about that?"

I turned and walked away. She followed. We had a short "discussion" where I told her that I was sick and tired of her inability to have a relationship and that I was done. I said "You never once asked me.if I wanted you to take over dinner. Not once. And a 'Thank you, you didn't have to do the prep work. I appreciate it.' would have been a helluva lot more relational than scolding me for doing it."

Her response to that? "Well, I guess I still have things to work on. 😪"

Ya think!?!

She comes back a few hours later to "apologize" for steamrolling me and for her complete lack of relational skills. Told her I don't care anymore, that this is what I mean when I say that she is no different than she has ever been, that the whole "I've changed on the inside" is a BS line and that, even if she has fooled herself into thinking she has changed, if the actions are still the same, no one cares about the motivation.

So, now it's on to figuring out what next. Just what I need. More stress...

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 1:01 PM, Friday, October 22nd]

Do you have anything in mind when it comes to moving forward? It's stressful but if your actions orient you towards progress, there is a light at the end of the tunnel and the stress is temporary.

So, now it's on to figuring out what next. Just what I need. More stress

I have to think getting yourself free of her madness has to be less stress than what you've been living with.

You have no reason at this point to be disappointed in or frustrated by your wife’s behavior.

I’ll even go so far as to say it’s unfair of you to expect her to demonstrate levels of kindness, empathy, and affection that are far beyond her extremely limited emotional range.

Furthermore, she doesn’t like or respect you enough to even pretend she cares.

I have a different view.

I think it's more likely that the reason your W is so hard to live with is that she can't live with herself. That doesn't compute for most of us, so grief and anger follow every interaction in which she demonstrates her self-hate.

My heart goes out to your W. I hope she really does find the courage or hope or whatever she needs to change. She really is a valuable human being, no matter what she thinks.

But she's not changing, or she's changing too slowly for you, CR. There comes a time when you have to save yourself. Saving yourself adds extra stress while you do it, but the extra stress IS temporary.

IDK what' best for you, but I believe you will figure it out.

Sisson nailed a lot of what I was going to say, and I believe he is really onto something here. She was able to recognize what she had done when you got upset. She actually acknowledged she has more work to do, she even made herself vulnerable enough to come back to apologize again.

Was there something strikingly insincere about her apology, or did you refuse to hear it? I'm asking because you put the word "apologize" in quotes. Was the attempted apology that far off base, or have you finally reached a point where you don't care enough to hear her out?

I know I've said this before, and I'll repeat it. You seem to be the hardest on (or least patient with) your wife when she is showing progress.

What is it that you really want? Her to fix herself faster? Her to walk away so you don't have to? Her to stay stuck so you feel more justified when you finally walk? I'm trying to understand, and your process is confusing to me.

[This message edited by Lostgirl410 at 4:53 PM, Friday, October 22nd]

What is it that you really want? Her to fix herself faster? Her to walk away so you don't have to? Her to stay stuck so you feel more justified when you finally walk? I'm trying to understand, and your process is confusing to me.

To be fair, it has been a minute. Is a BS meant to wait decades for a WS to become a decent person in order to try and R? How many years is too many years? His original DDay is the same year as mine and I cannot IMAGINE still being with the same person waiting for them to change and then be told that I hadn't waited long enough or was impatient. What he's asking is "oh hey, don't be verbally/emotionally abusive to me". That is something that #1 should not have to be asked, #2 is ABUSE. How long does a person sit back and take abuse and try to be understanding about it? He's not meant to be a martyr, surely. How much damage is this man obligated to absorb in his WW's path to leveling up to a decent non-abusive person? Take the infidelity out of the situation altogether and this is still an abusive relationship. Do we recommend that people stay in abusive relationships in case the abuser changes one day by incremental steps?

I mean, it's just...so she apologized. So what? No one gets to abuse and apologize and abuse and apologize and abuse and apologize over and over and somehow that makes it okay. The apology is part of the abuse at that point. It's just another step. Hurt, apologize, hurt, apologize. And so on forever.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:14 PM, Friday, October 22nd]

Is a BS meant to wait decades for a WS to become a decent person in order to try and R?

Exactly DD if I had done this it never would have happened and would come at my expense.

When Mrs. Cap walked in, she started by berating me with "I TOLD YOU two weeks ago that I was doing dinner. What didn't you understand about that?"

That is verbal and emotional abuse. He is making dinner and she attempts to make him feel stupid and inconsiderate about it. The words imply "you are useless". That is as much damage as if she walked in and slapped him in the face. Probably more. It's lack of respect and love and appreciation. It's treating him as an object to let out her anger on instead of treating him as the man she loves. I wouldn't speak to my dogs this way. My children never hear me speak in any such fashion to them even when they actually do something wrong. These words and no doubt the tone and facial expressions accompanying them are abuse and it's not like this is something she's rarely done. This is horrible stuff to live with and you deserve better, CaptRogers.

This is horrible stuff to live with and you deserve better, CaptRogers.

For the record, I totally agree.

To be fair, it has been a minute. Is a BS meant to wait decades for a WS to become a decent person in order to try and R? How many years is too many years? His original DDay is the same year as mine and I cannot IMAGINE still being with the same person waiting for them to change and then be told that I hadn't waited long enough or was impatient.

It's been a minute is probably the understatement of the year. I don't believe anyone, especially myself, thinks Cap should keep waiting. Yet, for some reason, he continues to do so anyway. My fear is that Cap has become so comfortable in his routine with his wife, that he's convinced himself a certain level of misery is part of an acceptable life. I think there's a kind of cognitive dissonance there where he has made peace with tolerating her presence, almost as if she's an emotionally stunted child he's responsible for.

Her attempts to change herself in the last few months disrupt the comfort level in him. Do I think she wants to change? Probably. Do I think she can? That all depends on her. Do I think it's his responsibility to wait or be patient with her? Absolutely not.

I do think he's written her off as a lost cause, and wouldn't know what to do with himself if she succeeded. I also think that scares the hell out of him. What if she eventually becomes someone he views as worthy, and he still can't find love for her? Could he still be at peace with their current arrangements in that situation? Could he be at peace with himself?

I truly don't know how he didn't walk away a long long time ago. I do want him to know it's still okay to walk away. No matter how much progress she makes.

Fair points. I see what you're saying.

I'll be honest with you... I think "detain and torture" can go both ways. I think sometimes a BS can be holding on to a relationship that s/he no longer really wants and nothing the WS does will ever be good enough. If you're one who can't (or won't) take satisfaction in the relationship, then who's detaining whom? Frankly, a miscommunication about who is going to make dinner after a busy day isn't any kind of indicator as to the overall growth of the WS. Part of reconciliation is ALLOWING your partner to be themselves at some point, and sometimes that's going to mean having a bad day or grousing about something stupid.

I dunno Cap. I've been reading your posts for a long time, and I think if I were to offer you some advice it would be to get a depression screening and if there's no depression, consider that maybe you just don't like her enough to continue in R.

Was there something strikingly insincere about her apology

The better question would be whether there was anything sincere about it. It was textbook, 100% rote.

"I'm sorry you felt steamrolled. I can understand why you would have that perspective. Please forgive me."

That was it, word-for-word. Just like she read it from a website on "how to apologize".

I think it's more likely that the reason your W is so hard to live with is that she can't live with herself.

That is my IC's take on everything as well, sisoon. His thought is that her actions are guilt & shame related and that she is afraid to actually address those things in her own life because it isn't the picture of herself that she wants to believe.

Frankly, a miscommunication about who is going to make dinner after a busy day isn't any kind of indicator as to the overall growth of the WS.

It wasn't a miscommunication. It was a demand/command a couple of weeks ago (I'll be cooking dinner from now on.) and it was followed yesterday by "What part of that didn't you understand?"

I'm done with the abuse. I'm especially done with being spoken to that way in front of my children. I'm just done.

I'm done with the abuse. I'm especially done with being spoken to that way in front of my children. I'm just done.

That is beyond not okay. They don't need to learn how to treat people from her. They definitely don't need to see their mom disrespecting their father that way.

Where did this making dinner idea come from? Is it just a control thing for her or did she see this in her mind as a way to "make up" for the things she's done? Not that it matters, I'm just curious of her thought processes to see how broken she really is. That she's broken and hasn't shown enough drive to fix herself enough to be able to even communicate.

Sorry Cap.

I know you gave it your all and then some.

Mrs. Cap just cannot live in a story where she is the villain.

She had convinced herself she could treat you the way she did, because somewhere in her brain, she held the high ground, she was the overworked, overlooked member of the team who somehow deserved more.

After her A, and I’ll always think there is even more to the story (beyond the admission on dday2) — the truth was self-evident. She no longer held the high ground, imaginary or otherwise.

She doesn’t want to owe you. She doesn’t want to feel bad about herself.

Strangely, we BS tend to talk about our WS as a reminder of what bad things happened. You tried to see some good in her instead.

On the flip side, I think every time she sees YOU, you remind her of what she has done wrong, instead of the person offering her a chance to get it right.

Double the tragedy to me.

May you find some peace on your next steps forward kind Sir.