SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think it's time to open a thread in here since I got a confirmation of a court day today, one month from now.

If you did not read my previous threads in JFO/General here's a shirt recap:

STBXW had an EA/PA with her coworker last spring/summer. Didn't confess, had to pull it out of her over the period of many months. During this time she lied, TTd and denied until I set up a polygraph. Then she came clean. They didn't sleep together (but plans were made), but lots of meetups before/after work, kissing and so on.

Over the last few months she became more and more remorseful and aware of the damage she had done to me, our kids and our family. We tried to work it out, but I ultimately came to realization that this was a dealbreaker (as I knew from the beginning but tried to overpower my own convictions) and decided I want out. We went through her desperation, lashing out, outright refusal to cooperate to a mutual understanding that it's for the best and any other attempts to pursuade me to change my mind would be beating a dead horse.

So we filed for uncontested divorce, STBXW moved out and we started sharing our time with kids according to our agreement. No issues whatsoever, but she still makes it clear she wants to stay together no matter what, which obviously makes it hard on me.

So I would love any kind of advice you can offer. Also, I will probably have many question going forward and I hope you might help with that.

Thank you,
Mr. F

Mr. F,

I followed your story and personally I would want for you to reconcile but I know from the get go that your aim is to D and then R if there's a possibility. As time went on, since there were multitudes of events withheld by your STBXW, I believe you're only going for D and see what happens next.

For me, I think you should sit down one last time with your STBXW because honestly, I still think that there are still a lot of information she's withholding from you, hoping that she'll get away with it. The reason I'm telling you to talk to her is for one last time, she will tell the whole truth to you and not withhold anything. Since, you're already divorcing anyway and there's no guarantee that you're going back together. Regardless if you're going for reconciliation or not, it's for her to tell the whole truth. Regardless, if you're still husband and wife at the end, it's her duty to tell the truth. It's her duty to tell the truth moving forward to remove excess baggage if in the future, she'll find a new husband, her conscience will be clear.

The reason I'm telling these things is, there are a lot of questionable things she stated:
1. She destroyed the evidence of their exchanges, the burner phone, by instruction of her AP.
2. They scheduled to have sex at his apartment and her story doesn't add up that she suddenly chickened out when they were making out?
3. They had multiple parking lot make out sessions. The AP is experienced with lots of girls, he has 3 other girls in parallel with your wife, correct? Would you think a player would just park his car and do nothing? Her AP is a proven player who has multiple girls at the same time. He know his way with women.
4. During the week of the polygraph, she suddenly admitted to another affair 5 years ago in which the physicality went as far as a 'hug'.
These last two items get to me the most:
5. The parking lot make out session when his hands was all over her body and suddenly she just chickened out when he put her hands in his P? They're having multiple make out sessions, would you think that this one make out session is the only thing that counts? They've had multiple times they were kissing and wandering their hands at each other's body. Suddenly, on this make out session she couldn't continue?
6. The part where his hand went inside her panties to feel if she's ready. The AP clearly knows what he's doing. He knows how to please his girl. After putting his finger insider her V to see if she's ready, what happened? She chickened out again? She already let him feel her. Put his fingers inside her. It's already highly sexual. After all those chemical exchanges, nothing? Like there's nothing at all? Two adults with high sexual drive and have emotional feelings toward each other just stopped after a hot chemical exchanges?

Pardon if I come out strong on this one. I have been reading your story and it seems there are still a lot of things to uncover. I still believe that you should give her another chance but she should address any missing link towards her 2 affairs.

All the best!

Multiple affairs, and she is still lying to you. There's nothing to work with here. Sure, you could stay married... Or even get back together in the future, but it will not be a true reconciliation. It will be her keeping her secrets and you struggling to make peace with it and ignore that nagging feeling in your gut.

Personally, and I speak from experience, there is a better way to live. I'm divorcing him, and his lies mean nothing to me anymore. He's no longer my problem to solve.

By the way, she had sex, with both of them. Definitely oral sex in the car scenarios. That's what adults do. They have sex. No grown man is coming back for multiple kissing (and hugging???😂)sessions and not getting any orgasms out of it.

Listen to your gut, and make your decision based on that. I'm sorry you are here with the rest of us. This stuff is hard.

[This message edited by WhoTheBleep at 1:48 PM, Friday, August 27th]

It'll take time for both of you to leave the marriage mentally and emotionally. Much longer than then it will take to make it official. Keep your distance. As much as you can with her being the mother of your children. Give it time. Things will look different a year from now for both of you. Hopefully you will both come to peace with the new reality sooner rather than later.

Be as compassionate as your principles will allow. Understand that your decisions, acts and omission have consequences. She started this, but now the initial storm has passed, you are responsible to your kids and broader family for how you handle yourself. Your responsibilities don’t end because you have been badly wronged. Assume you will have to account emotionally to your kids in 40 years, that they will then have a unique interior life just as important and complex as your own, and that at some level they will never agree with your choices about divorce and new relationships. It doesn’t mean your choices are wrong for you now. Life just sucks that way. Help them with their pain. Minimize the number of bad decisions you make now and how long you persist in them. Use discernment and avoid bad advice, including on this site. I have seen you do all of this at times. Basically be a Mensch, even if it is as a divorced Dad and ex-husband. I think you know there is no really good outcome here, only acting the best you can with what you have and keeping at it.

Multiple affairs, and she is still lying to you. There's nothing to work with here. Sure, you could stay married... Or even get back together in the future, but it will not be a true reconciliation. It will be her keeping her secrets and you struggling to make peace with it and ignore that nagging feeling in your gut.

Personally, and I speak from experience, there is a better way to live. I'm divorcing him, and his lies mean nothing to me anymore. He's no longer my problem to solve.

By the way, she had sex, with both of them. Definitely oral sex in the car scenarios. That's what adults do. They have sex. No grown man is coming back for multiple kissing (and hugging???😂)sessions and not getting any orgasms out of it.

Listen to your gut, and make your decision based on that. I'm sorry you are here with the rest of us. This stuff is hard.

I would be surprised if that was the case. While I won't rule out the possibility that she did have sex with both of them, I think it would be very unlikely.

It is important for Mr F to deal with this based on who he knows to be true. He also needs to base it on the fact that some things he will never know for sure. In order to make the best decision possible, he needs to know whether she is still lying.

Let us go over what he knows:

1) He knows that she passed a lie detector test.

Certainly not conclusive that everything she has said is true but, from what Mr F has described, his wife is no criminal mastermind. She was only able to deny Mr F's accusations. She was not able to concoct convincing lies to put him off his gut feeling that something was going on. In fact, the second he laid eyes on the two of them together, he immediately knew what was going on. Not what I'd expect if she was capable of beating a lie detecter.

2) When presented evidence of the hotel receipt, she adamantly denied ever going to a hotel with him, in the face of proof.

Most guilty people, when faced with proof of their lie, do not deny them and say that the evidence is not true. Not unless they are expert liars. They change their lies to accommodate the new evidence. She didn't.

3) She disclosed the second person before the lie detector test.

She gets the tiniest bit of credit for that I guess...

4) He saw texts from the OM backing up that she ran away after the second meet-up, apologizing to her, after two weeks of non-contact between them.

At least I think that is the case. Please let me know if I'm mistaken.

I don't raise these points to say that your wife isn't lying to you, because no one will ever know. I only raise them to say that, when I look objectively at your story, it would really surprise me. I have my doubts that she's capable of the level of deception necessary to maintain such lies. Whether that matters to you is entirely up to you my friend.

As to any advice I have to offer, I have a question. You have said that R is not completely off the table in the future. At this time, is she aware of this fact? Or does she currently believe that you are completely done, but she thinks she can still change your mind?

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 6:12 PM, Friday, August 27th]

When she says she wants to stay together you have two options.

You can ignore it. Not acknowledging it sends a message to her to just stop trying. It’s pointless.

You can respond. I have a sharp mouth so if I were in your shoes I would say things like "I wish we could reconcile but since you lied and cheated most of our marriage what is the point". Or "clearly you don’t understand how monogamy works or we would not be getting a D". Or "how much more of this crap do you expect me to take?"

I know when I was in D mode with my H I didn’t even acknowledge his begging to reconcile. I didn’t care what he had to say. At one point I was so fed up I told him "you can attempt to reconcile with me however I am not going to help you. I will not do anything to lead you on that you even have a shit in hell. But if you want to try — go right ahead."

So I understand your position and I think for your own sanity you should try to stop the "I want to stay married" routine with her. It no longer matters what she wants does it?

When she says she wants to stay together you have two options.

You can ignore it. Not acknowledging it sends a message to her to just stop trying. It’s pointless.

You can respond. I have a sharp mouth so if I were in your shoes I would say things like "I wish we could reconcile but since you lied and cheated most of our marriage what is the point". Or "clearly you don’t understand how monogamy works or we would not be getting a D". Or "how much more of this crap do you expect me to take?"

The above leaves nothing to misconstrue. No hopium on her part because I think she believes she still has a chance.

Again, you have to decide what you want to do. Don't open that door unless you know 100% she has done the work to be a safe partner. Do you really want to go through all of this again if she hadn't?

Thank you all for your input. I stopped digging for truth some time ago. I am fairly certain now that it never went past kissing and there was no sex. It was confirmed through polygraph and it is in line with all the evidence I have. So I am not bothered by this. And that first EA doesn't bother me too much, to be honest. I don't recall her behaving strangely, as she did while sneaking behind my back with that shithead. I picked up on that pretty quickly. It was more or less one-sided thing and she put a stop to it in the beginning. And I believe that. So again, doesn't bother me that much.

What bothers me is that the person I was supposed to trust the most stabbed me in the back and didn't give a crap until I stood up for myself. Then came the lies and TT. Even without all the physical aspects, this alone was enough for me to reconsider my marriage to this person. It was simply enough as it was. And I am sorry it took me so long to make peace with it, because if I were more swift I could have had save us both a lot of hurt and sleepless nights.

I believe I am doing the right thing, for both of us, because no matter what she did or didn't do, we both deserve to not live in a constant state of misery.

I believe I am doing the right thing, for both of us, because no matter what she did or didn't do, we both deserve to not live in a constant state of misery.

I can see the strength of your convictions. I think that strength will serve you well.

I have some ideas that, hopefully, could minimize the amount of pain you receive going forward. Based on what you've written, it is almost certain your STBXW will be waging an all-out campaign to try and win you back. That being said, since you can't go completely NC, you are going to have to find ways to limit her ability to tug at your heartstrings.

Is she currently under the impression that you may give her a chance in the future, or have you told her that door is forever closed?

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 9:35 PM, Friday, August 27th]

Sorry for the intrusion, Mr. F. I believe your plans still hold, correct? You go full D route then R afterwards? The reason why I stated you need the whole truth is you should know what you're trying to forgive her for. Basically, your wife has lied to you for 6-7 years? Your wife knows your boundaries. She knows that once it got physical, there's no turning back. That's it! D! From my understanding, she tried her hardest to withhold the information that it was sexual.

She had a successful first affair with a colleague which you didn't dig in the details about. This one you only knew the week of the polygraph test. I believe she didn't include the details of the first affair in her timeline, correct?

After her first affair ended, again she had a new affair with another colleague and this time it went the full route. They were with each other everyday. They carpool together. They send each other to each other's homes. They have lunch together. They go to the office together. They leave the office together. If you see the pattern here, there's a lot of grey areas. They practically have their morning kiss when another one fetches the other. They have their goodbye kisses after sending another to their homes.

They had lots of parking lot make out sessions. They had lots of elevator/office groping and make out sessions. They scheduled to have sex together. They exchange explicit photos - no confirmation of nudes. They were sexting and might have been doing explicit videos together.

The second guy, after some digging, you've proven that he was a player and he's got 3 other women at the same time. The second affair, whether you admit or not, it was highly physical. But you admitted the fact that it was only an EA. Heck, no! They were together everyday, for at least 8-10 hours or even more. Even when she's at your home, she's still communicating heavily with him. But in your own words, it was only an EA. No, sir! I disagree! It was highly a PA. If her story about the make out session when he put his fingers to feel if she's ready is true and that's about it then that's already sexual in nature. He was successful in penetrating her already. And that's the only detail you got from all those digging.

If your plan to D and R still holds then you should know if she's a healthy partner in the future. If you're going for the D route and no looking back, then it's fine whatever the 'truths' you have right now that's it. You don't have to dig in more.

But from what I can see, your plan still holds. You still include her of your future plans. You still include her on your job offers. So it is your wife's understanding that she will still be with you in the future. You still communicate with her daily. You inform her details about your life. Believe me when I say that your STBXW is still smiling if she receives these information from you.

D is just a temporary inconvenience for her. She wins! She withheld so much information about her 2 affairs and she gets to be your 2nd wife.

Sorry if I am too strong about this but I believe you deserve the right to know the whole truth. You should know if she's really worth the R route or not.

All the best!

I do not plan on R after divorce, I should have made it clear, sorry. She's aware of this, but it doesn't change a thing for her. She only ceased her attempts to pursue me to change my mind but I put this on her sister, not on my persistance. But I want us to split amicably, without any animosity or drama while we still don't hate each other

It's just that being around her is too painful right now and I often find myself enjoying that she doesn't live here anymore because I can walk around my house without constantly being on guard or brace myself for another "talk". I was just overloaded with everything and it's nice to just be for a change

beb252 I believe everything regarding the physical part of her A had already been said. I never said it was only an EA, quite the opposite actually. It was highly physical, they just didn't have sex. Not that he hadn't tried, because he did. What I meant was that my STBXW wasn't in it for the physical part (unlike Shithead), all that was just her currency to keep those ego strokes and attention going. That's why I believe she never let it go too far and just danced on the line. To keep him interested so he would provide what she needed from him. The dynamics seems so strange to me, I think I will never fully understand it. But at the beginning it was just an ordinary EA from her side, he just wanted to score another notch.

Also, there were mamy white spots where things simply didn't add up, or didn't make sense, and that's the reason why I dug deeper (+ you people here, especially faithfulman) and kept going until I uncovered another piece of the puzzle. And after all those horrible late night when we went around in circles and she would slip-up once and I took the opportunity and kept pressing I finaly got to connect all the dots to make a pretty decent picture of what went on over those months. And it makes sense and is in line with the evidence I have. So I am pretty sure I know enough now. Don't worry about that, really.

Had to get it out, sorry

Based on what you've written, it is almost certain your STBXW will be waging an all-out campaign to try and win you back. That being said, since you can't go completely NC, you are going to have to find ways to limit her ability to tug at your heartstrings.

Trust me, I have been subjected to her campaign since DDay 1, and I have a decent idea of how to deal with it. But you are right, she still does have some power over me, but I am working on that

I do not plan on R after divorce, I should have made it clear, sorry. She's aware of this, but it doesn't change a thing for her.

That makes it clearer now. So you have no intention for R after D. If that's the case then you don't need to dig in deeper.

All the best!

MrFlibble,

It's just that being around her is too painful right now and I often find myself enjoying that she doesn't live here anymore because I can walk around my house without constantly being on guard or brace myself for another "talk".

Have you told your STBXW this? Perhaps if you let her know you need some space and time to heal from this, she may respect it (at least in the short term). I have no doubt she'll make more runs at you to try and reconcile, but you need some time in the immediate future to catch your breath and settle into a new normal. Keep working out, eat right, and get plenty of sleep. Continue with your IC and perhaps take up something new to relax/challenge you, such as yoga, meditation or even a martial art. At the moment, I think you just need time away to heal.

So we filed for uncontested divorce, STBXW moved out and we started sharing our time with kids according to our agreement. No issues whatsoever, but she still makes it clear she wants to stay together no matter what, which obviously makes it hard on me.

Let me ask you this - is this what you would do if you were in her shoes? Let's say you were the one who severely hurt her. Every day she looks at you, she feels pain. Every day she feels the burden of what you've done to her hanging over her. Yes, you're sorry but it's not enough. Yes, you're trying to do right but it doesn't make it any better for her. The only time she breathes is when she is away from you. So, what would you do? Would you fight tooth and nail to keep her trapped in the marriage knowing it's painful and unbearable for her? Or would you move forward and make the separation process easy on her by playing fair?

If you have chosen differently than what your STBX is doing now, think about it. What is the defining factor? Perhaps that you would put her above yourself? Why do you think it is such a struggle to put you above herself? Why do you think your STBX would be able to live comfortably knowing that you are hurting as long as she gets to stay married and not have to face D? How do you think she sleeps at night knowing she hurt you, continued to hurt you, and would be fine with hurting you indefinitely if it means she doesn't have to hurt by facing shame, guilt, and consequences for her actions?

I don't think this is really a question of how to D a remorseful WS because D'ing a remorseful WS doesn't involve the situation you have described. Many a WS on the wayward forum have or are in some process of D. They haven't lashed out. They haven't lobbed friends and family at the BS as a way to shame them back into the marriage. They would prefer not to D. They make that clear. But they aren't guilting their BS with it. Because they understand that hurting their BS and then asking their BS to just suck it up and deal with the pain for the rest of their lives is as selfish as it gets. It's not all about them. Interestingly enough - when we hear about D'ing a remorseful WS on SI, it's typically a boring thread with a few posts about how the BS is holding up and not much else because their WS makes it easy on them. They don't need to be asking the questions that you are asking.

That said - what you're really asking is how to feel less guilty in response to someone who is guilt tripping you. You can do that by acknowledging that what they're asking of you is unfair. You can do that by accepting that you can't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. You can do that by acknowledging that some times people have to accept the consequences for their actions and protecting them by throwing yourself under the bus IS NOT helping them. It's showing them that they can get away with poor behavior at your expense and further enforces the attitude that your pain and suffering is "not a big deal" given you're able to push it aside for them. When you can see the reality of your situation, only then can you stop feeding into the madness. Only then will it get easier for you.

BlueRaspberry Of course I told her, repeatedly. But i lt took a while for her to abandon her selfish ways and she had slipped a few times and fell back. It was a slow and rocky process, but I think we finally came to a place where she puts her wants and needs BEHIND those of mine. As I said, I suspect her sister's influence played a major part in this. The other part is (what I hope) her personal growth through her IC.

I do excersise, I lost those few pound I gained over the years and physicaly, I am in a great shape. I stopped drinking almost entirely and cut back on a fastfood. No issues in that regard. Since she moved out I also spend good 3-4 day alone. It took me a while to adjust but I kind of like it. No pressure and no heavy talks I dreaded so much.

The only thing from your list is IC for me. I stopped with that, because I genuinly think I didn't benefit from it all that much (also sort of confirmed by my counselor). I might come back in a future, but for now I think I am ok on my own.

nekonamida You gave me alot to think about, thank you. I will go through it again and come back with a proper response when I put together one.

You people are great and I am so glad I came here

Because nekonamida's already nailed it I don't have much to add.

I would agree with your assessment that your STBXW never really wanted anything physical from POSOM. She wanted the attention and validation. This resulted in a sort of tug of war between them.

I still smile everytime I think about how bad it has gotten for the POSOM. Most BS don't ever some kind of payback.

Truth be told, being the arrogant douchebag that he is believing that he is some sort of Casanova, I would bet that it really bothers him that he was unable to seal the deal. His ego probably can't take it.

Being a Catholic I'm not supposed to revel in anyone's suffering but unfortunately, in this case, I can't help myself.

Does your STBXW understand that, when she told you that she didn't sleep with him because "that would be the end", what she was really communicating was that she thought that you would tolerate this level of betrayal? That she had already weighted the risks of being caught and thought that she would be able to convince you to stay? Because that's what I picked up from that. I guess she miscalculated...

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 4:15 PM, Saturday, August 28th]

After following Mr F’s thread from the beginning, I’ve come to understand that from the start his WW affair was always going to be a deal breaker.

I think it’s who Mr. F is at his core - an honorable person where truth and honesty is at his core. This is black and white with Mr F, not grey.

Part of this I believe is personality and, from inference, the other part I think is who he is as a professional. I’m guessing that Mr. F is a relatively senior corporate executive, most likely in the finance sector. This job requires a strong set of values, truth seeking, along with significant fiduciary responsibilities. In Europe, even more so.

Mr F stayed true to his values in the end. The trust was irrevocably broken and can’t be repaired. It took a lot of guts snd strength to come to this truth. I wasn’t convinced at first, but i certainly am now.

Good luck to you.

... She wanted the attention and validation. This resulted in a sort of tug of war between them.

Hm, tug of war is pretty accurate term. There is a lot of back and fort in their messaging. Him ignoring her, her throwing him breadcrumbs here and there. Strange dynamics if you ask me.

I still smile everytime I think about how bad it has gotten for the POSOM. Most BS don't ever some kind of payback.

I wouldn't say he got it bad. I know he had to move back here (to his parent's flat) after he was fired from that job, but I bet he already has another one, if not even a better one. Snakes like him always find a way.

I do not waste my thoughts on him anymore. I saw him a few times around the city (from afar) and once I stood 10 feet from him in a tram (the coward ran off the moment he saw me), so at least he obviously remembers who I am. And I know he got beaten up by another BH and ended up in hospital, but I seriously doubt he will ever change. POS for a life I guess.

But as I said, I got my pound of flesh already and he's not worth getting myself into trouble. But if I could beat him without consequences? In a heartbeat.

Does your STBXW understand that, when she told you that she didn't sleep with him because "that would be the end", what she was really communicating was that she thought that you would tolerate this level of betrayal?

Absolutely. She denied it at first, but it was so obvious she, at least on unconsious level, weighted the gain/loss ratio. She knew very well that cheating is a deal breaker for me and she did her best to stay in that grey zone. Very deliberate. And maybe, only maybe, it's bit more complicated because everything was hapenning in small increments, tiny step. The bastard took his sweet time and he knew how to play it. You wouldn't believe some of the shit he fed her, it's embarassing she so stupidly took a bite. Maybe I will someday post some of it for your amusement when it won't hurt so much.

Dude67 oh yeah, those damned values. But where would we be without them. You are right that my core values played a crucial part in my decision, but it's not that simple.

And no, I am not an senior executive. Just a mid-thirties IT guy who was lucky with his idea taking off so we don't have to worry about money and I can be very picky when it comes to a job.

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 6:00 PM, Saturday, August 28th]