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Just Found Out :
perception vs. truth

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Buster123 ( member #65551) posted at 12:20 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

You don't have enough to confront yet, so if you want solid proof, get a couple of VARs and put one in her car under her seat with some velcro, another one in the bedroom, cheaters feel safe talking to their APs in their cars, you may even get the whole thing if she uses bluetooth/speaker mode, also a GPS would be good and if you can afford a PI, by all means definitely do it, tell her you have to leave town for a couple of days for a family emergency or business trip and have the PI ready.

Also you may try something first, I have suggested in the past, take her to a restaurant and once you're there and after you order the food, tell her that you left your phone home and that you need to make an important call to either your job or to cancel an appointment with a friend you were supposed to meet at the same time and to apologize (you might have a trusted friend ready just in case), once she hands you the phone dial the number and get up and tell her you'll be right back and that you're going to the bathroom as you walk away with her phone and pretend someone answered and talk while you head there, she obviously won't be able to follow you to the men's room, once inside the bathroom, look for evidence and go straight to the convos with this guy (don't let the phone lock itself), also check for others even female names (cheaters often save APs number under a name of the opposite sex), if you find evidence, either take pictures of it with your phone (you had it hidden the whole time on silent mode) or forward the texts/emails to your number and then delete those forwarded texts/emails on her phone, so she doesn't suspect you went through those, if you find a smoking gun, act normal and wait until you get home to confront her, make sure you tell OBS (Other Betrayed Spouse) without warning (she may have even more evidence or could have access to his phone), also inform all family and close friends that the wedding is off and tell them the truth, you don't have to give them the gory details but inform them of her betrayal (if that's the case). Make sure the VAR is in place as she will probably call OM to give him the heads up.

If she refuses to give it to you, call the wedding off right then and there, her refusal to hand you the phone would be a dead giveaway.

posts: 2417   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018
id 8644177
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thatbpguy ( member #58540) posted at 12:34 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Again, if you start asking without having facts, she erases the whole history. Get those facts!

As to a VAR, place them in places she will talk- her car for sure, any rooms in the apartment she uses when you're there or not. You can also download them on a tablet so you don't have to buy as many.

I suggest putting off buying a house.

One poster said that you're not married, no kids together, financially stable... if EVER you'd walk away from a relationship, this is the time. I guarantee you if she betrays you now, she will later. Clearly, she doesn't value you.

ME: BH Her: WW DDay 1, R; DDay 2, R; DDay 3, I left; Divorced Remarried to a wonderful woman

"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." C.S. Lewis

As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly...

posts: 4455   ·   registered: May. 2nd, 2017   ·   location: Vancouver, WA
id 8644182
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 12:42 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Keep those ties lose until you get to the bottom of this. Var definitely in her car. That's the easy place to have private conversations. Anywhere in the house she spends alone to me is another.

Let's talk AP. Kids? How long married? How well do you know OBS? What we're looking for here is reasons she hasn't monkey branched already.

Do you know any of her logins? Can you get on her laptop? Check browser for saved passwords for social media sites. Leave them logged in while she's at work. See if you can catch conversations in real time. Check browser history. Check Google search history.

posts: 748   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8644189
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HalfTime2017 ( member #64366) posted at 12:48 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Yes, Var the car and any other place she likes to talk when you;re not around. Video in a place where she will be pointing her laptop. Sit back and watch. HOpefully its nothing, but you better get a move on so that you don't move ahead with the wedding.

Lastly, who has the phone plan. If its in your name, you can get lots of details that way too. Put up the cameras and plan a trip with some buds for a couple of days and see what you find out when you're away. You know she'll be actively planning to see the AP b/c this would be a good chance for her. Whatever it is you do, hurry on up before you get married. It will save you a lot of money and heartache down the road.

posts: 1149   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2018   ·   location: Cali
id 8644192
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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 1:11 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

I wouldn’t have any luck with her past fiancé, though, because he (very unfairly) blamed me more than her for their parting. That is 100% inaccurate, but he would not be a trustworthy or reliable source.

Do you think that it's at all possible that she was cheating with someone else on him and he thought that you were the OM? If all she was to you was a normal coworker who maybe flirted with you a couple of times, how would he even suspect you let alone know to blame you? It's not adding up.

posts: 4970   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8644197
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GoldenR ( member #54778) posted at 2:32 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

I wouldn't even investigate. I'd just break up with her.

You know she's cheating. Fuck proof.

posts: 2642   ·   registered: Aug. 22nd, 2016   ·   location: South Texas
id 8644220
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Lurkster ( new member #77252) posted at 2:48 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Here’s a tactic you might consider: anonymously email this guy’s wife that you think her husband might be screwing around on her. You can use anonymousemail. You don’t have to tell her who with, I think she will figure that part out. Make sure to monitor your partner closely in the days after you send the email as you’ll likely see a change in her attitude.

posts: 26   ·   registered: Feb. 4th, 2021   ·   location: CA
id 8644222
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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 2:49 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Apropos of what Golden R said, this time -- engagement, leading up to the wedding -- this is the absolute best you will ever get from her. Keep that in mind. If you go into a marriage with this level of doubt, what happens when the going gets tough (and the going will get tough, I guarantee it -- that's how life it). Job loss. Injury. Children. Etc.

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 3771   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8644225
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Buffer ( member #71664) posted at 3:23 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Well lots of advice about where to put a VAR as well as hiring a PI. End of the day how much information do you need to pull the pin?

You are not married yet so the ease of assets will be minimal.

But she is full on cheating so sorry to be blunt.

Just come home and without talking. Just pack her things and drive them over to AP’s house. Then when she gets home, drive her over there. She will deny everything. Just tell her you have known since the dinner party. There is nothing more to say.

She has commitment issues and will repeat her actions.

One day at a time

[This message edited by Buffer at 9:30 PM, March 22nd (Monday)]

Buffer

posts: 1192   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8644234
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Venus1 ( member #77144) posted at 5:52 AM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Lots of gas-lighting here! Cheater 101 – your WW is following the cheaters handbook! And gas-lighting makes the BS feel completely crazy for seeing something happen. Trust me, this is exactly what my WH has done to me and I never thought he could cheat let alone gas-light or blame me for it.

And please trust your instincts. That ‘gut feeling’ is rarely wrong. I knew something was 'off' about two weeks after my WHs affair started, so I collected proof and confronted as soon as I had what I needed.

Remember, being here means that you have some doubt or have lost trust / respect for her in some way.

Tread lightly and protect yourself. Actions speak louder than words, so let her prove her worthiness to you. She needs to earn you.

Me: BS (39) Him: WS (40)
13.5 years married, 16 years together
D-day: 1Jan2021 Confronted: 2Jan2021
Currently Separated after confirmation of 'exit affair'
Filed for D May 2021

posts: 113   ·   registered: Jan. 15th, 2021   ·   location: California
id 8644257
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rugswept ( member #48084) posted at 1:30 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

There are many red flags in your post. I'd say there was a very high probability she's involved with suspected AP. The seating arrangement was really telling.

The biggest red flag I saw was the change in sexual behavior. They can hide their phone, they can try to cover their tracks on where they're going or have been. What is far more difficult to obscure is changes in behavior. That includes sudden stand offish behavior.

The worst behavior change is a sudden noticeable change in how they kiss or how they interact sexually or what they do sexually. I was in complete denial against overwhelming evidence. The early thought I had that implicated an A was different behavior during sex. I felt, wow, now that took practice, only thing was, it wasn't with me. My denial said NO NO she'd never do that and it receded in my mind. Much later there were so many things pointing to the A (where I could find very little, just a lot of circumstantial hard to explain situations. I followed her, and found nothing-except one time it was indirectly suspicious but I didn't get it at the time). At the end the undeniable fact in my mind was the change in sexual behavior, and I said, no way that was nothing.

After confronting her, she did admit to the whole thing. And at that moment, all aboard the emotional rollercoaster for the free ride. Next stop: empty feeling, gut punch and incredible sadness. All that followed by the full suit of emotions and feelings that goes on intensely for months.

Parts of your story, in some ways, was like mine. I my case it went on for almost a year and a half where I was first alerted by sexual behavior change around 2 months in.

Good luck, and beware. The GPS, VAR, and PI would finish this. I believe the VAR is plenty and will leave you shocked. Buy good equipment, it'll be the best investment you ever made.

R'd (rug swept everything) decades ago.
I'm big on R. Very happy marriage but can never forget.

posts: 959   ·   registered: Jun. 2nd, 2015   ·   location: Northeast US
id 8644296
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Robert22205https ( member #65547) posted at 1:53 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

If you have trouble sleeping or concentrating during the day, see your doctor. Tell the doctor what you shared here. They can help.

Google "PTSD". Betrayal is a major major trauma.

None of us are immune from the symptoms/stages. Read up on the 'stages' (especially the denial stage and the intermediate recovery stage).

People differ with the timing and duration of each stage - but you don't have to walk alone.

Stay in touch ...vent, seek advice, check out the healing library.

posts: 2414   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8644304
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faithfulman ( member #66002) posted at 2:45 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Absolon - The "Don't investigate further, just break up with her right now" advice is valid.

However, it is much easier to break up with someone else's fiancé on the internet than it is to do it yourself in real life.

You have doubts about her, but also about your conclusions.

I advise you to investigate to the point you feel comfortable/certain with your conclusion that she is cheating or at least in a highly inappropriate relationship - or not.

From there you can decide to:

- Confront and leave her (I advise this! Also expose her cheating ways so you are not made out to be the bad guy.)

- Say nothing and just leave her (A good "badass" move, but you might worry about the fallout when she tells everyone how you "abandoned" her.)

- Say nothing and stay with her if you find out she is not cheating (unlikely)

posts: 873   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2018
id 8644318
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 Absolon (original poster new member #78553) posted at 3:38 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Continued thanks for the helpful advice.

I will say that I have got the ball rolling down the road of investigation, in multiple ways. As it is, I have a business trip out of town the weekend after Easter, so that provides a natural opportunity to see what she does in my absence.

But I came to post two things that are on my mind right now.

One is: The poster nekonamida’s questions unfortunately hit me much harder than I expected. They asked about why exactly my fiancée’s ex-fiance disliked me so much. And it hit me: I actually don’t know that he dislikes me. At all.

The thing is that about half a year after my fiancée broke off her previous engagement, we became closer and were hanging out with increasing frequency. But I wasn’t 100% certain she had romantic feelings for me. That changed one evening when she told me, over drinks, that her Ex was incredibly jealous of me because he felt I was ‘so much better looking than him’ and she was ‘clearly attracted to (me)’. She then said, ‘Maybe he was right’, then started stroking my arm.

Not only was that story part of our coming together but, about a week later, when it appeared we were already getting pretty serious, and her Ex came up in conversation, she clarified that I should never really bother thinking he and I could have anything to do with each other because, apparently, he detested me so much. Thing is: I only know that to be true because she told me—not because I experienced it myself.

I say all this because just about half an hour ago, in a conversation with her, I asked her as casually as possible (as one does, when one’s life is casually disintegrating right before their own eyes) whether she ever speaks to her Ex. She said ‘no’. I then asked, ‘Just because he hates me so much?’ And she said, ‘Oh, what? He doesn’t hate you at all! Even though I was attracted to you when I was with him, I NEVER mentioned you to him because he was so jealous.’ Then she giggled and said, ‘I wanted to keep you all to myself, even in my mind.’

I don’t even know where to start with all of that: whether the fact that the genesis of our coming together romantically was founded on a lie of hers, or the ease with which she was either lying then or now, or just … the way her mind works.

Damn.

The other thing I wanted to quickly post is that while I have huge gratitude for the advice I am receiving, another part of me feels selfish and perverse for being here. Basically, what I am doing is asking people who have gone through betrayal to re-traumatise themselves by recalling their own stories and then re-sharing them. Isn’t that a bit brutal? I honestly feel uncomfortable ‘doing that to’ other people and, at the moment, have a bit of a problem with the fact that my own story might be causing others to re-suffer their own pain.

posts: 26   ·   registered: Mar. 22nd, 2021
id 8644339
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 3:47 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

The other thing I wanted to quickly post is that while I have huge gratitude for the advice I am receiving, another part of me feels selfish and perverse for being here. Basically, what I am doing is asking people who have gone through betrayal to re-traumatise themselves by recalling their own stories and then re-sharing them. Isn’t that a bit brutal?

For me that's part of the healing process. Telling what happened helps process the feelings and lowers the strength of them. I actually need to do more of that.

posts: 748   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8644343
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 3:56 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

I don’t even know where to start with all of that: whether the fact that the genesis of our coming together romantically was founded on a lie of hers, or the ease with which she was either lying then or now, or just … the way her mind works.

Damn.

Run her behaviors through the NPD checklist yet?

Do you know for sure when she broke up with the Ex? Outside of what she told you. She really sounds like a monkey brancher. This one is just complicated by him being married.

Var in the car and the bedroom before the trip. Make sure you cover any lights. Camera, of living room not bedroom(tmi), would be nice but more risky. One of those should give you more than enough confirmation of what's going on.

posts: 748   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8644348
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Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 4:00 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

grubs is absolutely right. Everyone here chooses to be, no one makes us.

He is also right about finding out about when your GF actually broke off the engagement. She may have waited until she thought there was a future with you before dumping her ex.

I don’t even know where to start with all of that: whether the fact that the genesis of our coming together romantically was founded on a lie of hers, or the ease with which she was either lying then or now, or just … the way her mind works.

Now you know she is a liar. No need to confirm that part. So you can assume that anything she tells you is a lie, unless you can verify it's truth.

Have you set a date for the wedding? If so, I hope it is a ways off so you have the time you need to figure this out. You have every right to be concerned, because your fiance is revealing herself to be a selfish, lying person, even if she isn't a cheater (unlikely). Good luck.

posts: 1516   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8644353
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 4:09 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

This is an infidelity site and most of us betrayed spouses were completely surprised discovering our spouses infidelity. Therefore we have a tendency to see infidelity in everything.

Fact is you have indicators… red flags… concerns…

But frankly you haven’t shared anything that warrants terminating this relationship based on infidelity.

What you have shared is that you have good and ample reason to dig deeper, but I encourage you to do so with the goal of seeking the TRUTH rather than with the goal of finding infidelity. That truth might be that she’s cheating, but it might be something else.

Just keep some things in mind:

IF she’s cheating you only need to convince yourself. This is not a court of law where you need legal evidence, glossy photos, statements, witnesses, cross-examinations and the works. It’s enough that YOU are convinced.

This is a big issue. We have had posters here in comparable shoes as you are. We recently had a poster whose wife spent an afternoon in a hotel with another man, was out late most Fridays in the company of same man, spent a night at his house, had her work-colleagues share they thought his wife and the OM were in an affair… yet he needed more proof… Don’t be THAT guy. Get enough to convince yourself she’s having an affair – or not.

When you confront be convinced she’s having an affair. Do so with a statement: You are having an affair. If she refuses then it’s her role to convince you otherwise. She does NOT have the option of saying NO as if that were a final or definite answer.

She could (there and then) hand over her phone, let you see her social media and so on. You need to feel secure enough to make the claim shes having an affair and then carrying on.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 9858   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8644359
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DanielJK ( member #75654) posted at 4:10 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Basically, what I am doing is asking people who have gone through betrayal to re-traumatise themselves by recalling their own stories and then re-sharing them. Isn’t that a bit brutal? I honestly feel uncomfortable ‘doing that to’ other people and, at the moment, have a bit of a problem with the fact that my own story might be causing others to re-suffer their own pain.

Don't worry about this. I'm here because I don't want others making the same mistakes I did. I know how badly infidelity hurts. I want you to get out of infidelity. It's worth it for us if you get out of infidelity as quickly and as painlessly as possible.

BH 51
STBXWW 53
2 daughters, 14 and 16
Filed for divorce 12/23/2020

After a year of hell I finally moved out (5/26/2021).
Divorce still pending.

posts: 455   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2020   ·   location: CT
id 8644360
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 4:14 PM on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2021

Absolon,

I haven't really told my story to you at all, but it has certainly been very healing to be helpful and give insights when possible.

I didn't have any proof. I just had an icky feeling that my wife was getting too close with her coworker. In fact, she told me herself that she felt like she had gone on a date with him when she stayed out late at business conference at the start of the whole thing.

As honest a person as my wife was, even initially, she started lying. She lied by omission, and she lied directly to my face.

She started texting him a lot. I only realized because I was checking my phone bill to see how long until I was eligible for an upgrade. I confronted her on the number of texts, but didn't force her to show them to me. It's not fun trying to collect and look at this kind of evidence.

I did collect evidence of her A because she left FB logged in to a shared computer. I waited for that to confront, but honestly, I should have pushed sooner. I almost confronted her with less, and I felt icky just for looking at her FB stuff (which I shouldn't have since my gut was screaming at me).

After the initial confrontation, she was very upset with me and still not being transparent. She had ended the A, but I had to keep close tabs on her. I hated it. Tracking her GPS. Listening to conversations between her friends (where I then found out about several other affairs that her friends were in).

We have two kids, we share a house, she is a good mom, and contributes financially and around the house. We had an otherwise good relationship, that got derailed by an affair of opportunity. I thought it was worth working through it because our relationship was otherwise strong and good. It took me over a year and asking for a divorce three times to actually get back to feelings safe and comfortable in my relationship.

So my advice on "what is enough for you?" and not playing relationship police comes from that. It's not that you shouldn't if you want to stay in the relationship, it's that simply doing so shows the dynamic of the relationship is really fucked up. It's not your fault it's fucked up (most likely). But you will still own those actions. Is being cheated on something you want to carry with your relationship forever? Is spying on your fiance something you want to carry forward into your relationship for the rest of your life?

You need to understand there is no path forward where you won't have some regret. You can have regrets that you left without tying harder, or regrets that you stayed in the face of mistrust and betrayal. That's what cheating does.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 1343   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8644364
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