SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What???!!!Wait a minute...Is this Venus or is it really chamomile tea disguised as Venus?OMG wish I had been there with popcorn in hand Would have paid the overinflated movie theater prices in tickets for that one.I can see me and chamomile siting on the sidelines.Chamomile leans over and whispers"Wait this is where it gets good!"

[This message edited by Bonetired at 6:14 AM, April 2nd (Friday)]

My H had a mid life crisis affair. My H also blamed me for his unhappiness. My H also was planning to D me. In fact in 25 years of M neither of us ever said “I want a D”. During his affair I heard it more than 20 times.

So on dday2 after months of false reconciliation I gave him what he wanted. I stood up to him and said I was D him - he’s not D me.

Funny how he decided to change his mind and suddenly want to R.

Point is I know how being blamed for your H’s unhappiness is ridiculous in theory but emotionally devastating. Until you realize it’s a excuse to justify the affair.

I love your response to him about “ he’s no H of the year” and dismissing him. Selfish people hate that. He no longer mattered and you let him know that.

Keep detaching from him. It’s the best option b/c sadly there is nothing left to reconcile with. Just remind him how unhappy he is when he tries to come crawling back.

The1stWife you are so right.Isn't it strange that indifference has more of an impact on an XWS than hate.

The1stWife you are so right.Isn't it strange that indifference has more of an impact on an XWS than hate.

That is not true in our case. He was trying to take back his earlier “I want a D” from that day. He was trying to talk to me and blah blah blah. What he never expected was that I would find out he had just ended the affair hours before.

He never expected i would find out he had been cheating and I was in false reconciliation for months.

He never thought I would stand up to him and refuse to back down. Or speak to him. Or love him. Or care about him.

He had no idea what he forced me to become.

My WS was scheduled to pick the dogs up at 6pm and he showed up 20 min early. I was rounding the corner of the street from walking the dogs and BOOM ... there he was. I was so mad that he was there because it meant I had no choice but to interact with him (ie, hand off the dogs directly vs exchange via the dog crate in the garage where I don't have to see him). Another way for him to control or keep in touch -- classic narc tendency!

As I came closer to the house, I started getting more and more angry inside, but kept my calm. I just handed him the leashes and didn't say anything and started walking up the driveway. My WS said "So, that's how it's gonna be, huh? You aren't ever going to talk to me again?". I flipped around and gave him a lashing!

"What exactly do you expect me to say? You put your d#ck into some woman's p#ssy and instead of being remorseful you've blamed me, been flat out mean and moved out. You want to be best friends? You want the 2020/2021 husband of the year award? You want me to to be nice and say 'hit me one more time'? If I don't want to talk to you, I won't talk to you."

Well, the look on his face was that of shock and awe. I gave one of those 'no retort' kinda looks when he said he knows how much he's hurt me and that things are truly awful right now. So, I just told him that he should be happy because he got everything he wanted and to never show up 20 min early again. I wasn't about to let him walk all over me!

Shazam! That's how you do it, baby!!

Note that all he could do is mumble about the obvious. He probably expected you to go all gooey over his royal acknowledgment that you have feelings. Don't you feel noticed and special now? That was practically a whole kibble.

I do think he'll test you on this boundary again. Narcs don't give up supply easily, not even at the discard. Remember, the narc always wants it on HIS terms, not yours. Start having a friend or family member come over on exchange days to run interference. You're a dog person, so you KNOW that we don't reward bad behavior, right. He shows up early, fine... he gets to see your mom or your best friend walk the dogs to the garage. Better still, see an attorney to talk about how you can keep your dogs.

Oh, and remember how I told you he was 'processing' my email and that he would respond soon? It's been over a week since I sent that letter, and nothing. Surprised? No, I don't think so.

You're doing remarkably well. A month ago and you wouldn't have seen this for what it is. In order to create a REAL response, the guy would have to be deeper than a teaspoon, and he's not. If he was, he would never have been willing to treat you the way he has.

((hugs))

If he ever shows up early again, ignore him and make him wait outside until it’s time to hand off the dogs via crate as agreed.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 1:32 PM, April 3rd (Saturday)]

I love this! Thanks for sharing you've made my day. You are going to be just fine without him and are going to end up with someone far better. Meanwhile he will have just what he wanted, a married cam girl with no morals.

@Freeme – You are right, he will get just what he wanted! To be with a home-wrecker no morals cam girl from a porn site – or in the long-term just be alone. It makes me feel sorry for him actually, that he is so lost and has such low self-esteem that he is ok settling for something like that.

Ever hear that song, “I Hope”? I like the version by Gabby Barret, but a lot of artists have done versions of it. It is speaking a lot to me during this angry phase I find myself in right now. Basic message of the song -- I hope you are happy with what she gives you, and then I hope she cheats on you like you did on me. Karma sucks buddy!

What???!!!Wait a minute...Is this Venus or is it really chamomile tea disguised as Venus? OMG wish I had been there with popcorn in hand Would have paid the overinflated movie theater prices in tickets for that one. I can see me and chamomile siting on the sidelines. Chamomile leans over and whispers "wait this is where it gets good!"

@Bonetired – you crack me up! But, yes, it was really me! No disguises here, although I think I was channeling ChamomileTea just a little bit. And God it felt good to say it to his face! Truthfully I just hit the wall with him and his behavior, insensitivity, and arrogance. And I’m mentally/emotionally stronger now to just tell him how it is instead of playing into his poor me fantasy world. I’ll provide the popcorn for the next interaction.

Ironically, guess who hasn’t contacted me since that interaction? My WS hasn’t emailed, called, or texted – a record 8 days everyone. Maybe my email and our interaction gave him a little dose of reality and his pea sized brain understands why I asked for time/space all the way back to January. Although, I do feel more ‘lonely’ this week. My guess is that it is partly because of the no contact and not having that constant reminder of him, and partly because the shock of this whole thing is starting to wear off and I’m really dealing with my emotions lately. The no contact and less shock will actually help me start processing the trauma and all these feelings, so I’m trying to keep that in mind when I do start feeling lonely.

Keep detaching from him. It’s the best option b/c sadly there is nothing left to reconcile with. Just remind him how unhappy he is when he tries to come crawling back.

@The1stWife – this is 100% my goal. Detaching and letting go. I didn’t realize how tough letting go would be though. It sort of feels like I’m ‘giving up’ on our marriage, on him, on us. But, then I read my pro/con list and remember that my WS is not the person I want to be with. That he has done all these horrible things, said all these horrible things, and it was him giving up, not me! It will be interesting to see if he does come crawling back and hopefully by then I’ll be even stronger to look him in the face and say “too late”!

If he ever shows up early again, ignore him and make him wait outside until it’s time to hand off the dogs via crate as agreed.

@BluerthanBlue – really good suggestion! I realized after the fact that I should have done that. But, old habits really do die hard! I didn’t realize how quickly I was to answer his text messages, take care of things for him, be there to help him / support him, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t a push over or anything, but I did put his needs first and tried to support those needs. It’s a tough thing to break, even though this shell of a man-child is sitting in front of me and I barely recognize him.

You're a dog person, so you KNOW that we don't reward bad behavior, right. …

You're doing remarkably well. A month ago and you wouldn't have seen this for what it is. In order to create a REAL response, the guy would have to be deeper than a teaspoon, and he's not. If he was, he would never have been willing to treat you the way he has.

@ChamomileTea –We definitely don’t reward bad behavior in dogs! I would like to point out though, that my dogs are far superior to my WS. They deal with their ‘sh!t’ appropriately (ie, outside), are well behaved, and love me unconditionally … three things my husband doesn’t quite comprehend. LOL. That said, you are right, I need to get more in that mindset. When my WS pulls out a narc behavior or says something stupid, don’t react, don’t feed the narc supply and don’t reward by giving any attention to it. So difficult to change my behavior here.

A month ago I definitely didn’t want to see my situation for what it is. I was in MAJOR denial that my WS had an exit-affair and was checked out of our marriage for awhile and to the point where he no longer cared. Denial still creeps in from time to time, and the pain is still there. But, he is still in fantasy land and would need to be deeper than a teaspoon to actually own up to the crap he’s put me through! You told me early on that there is no hope of reconciling with someone who doesn’t want to reconcile --- ouch --- but you were right!

A little update –

During our little face-to-face, my WS told me he had a business trip up north last Thurs-Sun and I told him to add it to the calendar. Of course I didn’t mind keeping the dogs and of course he didn’t add it to the calendar. A receipt being sent to my email suggest that he got on a plane to visit his gf/AP this weekend. You know what I don’t understand? He got caught! He knows I know he got a burner phone to keep talking to her! He knows that I know he has lied to me the last year and a half (even before the website and the AP)! And NOTHING he does surprises me at all.

Why can’t he just accept responsibility and own up to it? Is he that much of a coward? I know that we are separated and technically it isn’t my business anymore to know what he is doing and with who. I don’t really want him to know what I’m doing and with who. But, if you are going to offer up information to me, why not tell me the truth?

Venus -

Glad you're doing better. As far as your Husband telling the truth even though you KNOW, that doesn't matter. In his mind, he is still the innocent good boy of his world. He will continue to lie, bc lets face it, there are not consequences for him to continue to do so, and it makes him look better.

My ex was caught, and still, in her mind, she was the innocent little girl. I'm the mean bitter exHusband. You see how it goes? You're never going to win over their logical mind, so don't try. It will cause you more frustration then its worth. I have til this day, 4 yrs later, never gotten a real apology and I probably never will. I'm not waiting around for it.

Your Husband is the same way. He's not in the wrong. Doesn't matter what you know, just that he is telling his version to himself that matters. Don't keep frustrating yourself. Just look at him as the evil alien that he is, and remind yourself that most likely anything coming out of their mouth is a lie. Once you accept that your exHusband is not the person you thought he was, you can move on. Mid life crisis or not, the ending will be the same for you. He no longer matters.

Although, I do feel more ‘lonely’ this week. My guess is that it is partly because of the no contact and not having that constant reminder of him, and partly because the shock of this whole thing is starting to wear off and I’m really dealing with my emotions lately

This is actually where you start reinvesting in YOUR life, doing things you want to do, maybe taking on new hobbies, making new friends, planning new adventures. What are you doing for vacation this year? Vaccines are starting to get out to people, maybe you'll be able to travel this year? Pick a friend, plan a trip. Get out and look around on the weekends, even if it's only grabbing a picnic basket and hiking with a friend. Learn a musical instrument, join a divorce recovery program, knit for babies, make quilts for the homeless. Move everything in your home around, or if the home is selling, look for new places, not just on the basis of what's feasible, but on what you like. The point is that there's LIFE after tossing a cheater. And the good part is that you get to design it from scratch, just the way you want it. It's okay to allow yourself to be a little excited about that.

I would like to point out though, that my dogs are far superior to my WS. They deal with their ‘sh!t’ appropriately (ie, outside), are well behaved, and love me unconditionally …

I love the sentiment here and you're so right! A good dog is like having your own guardian angel right here on earth.

Why can’t he just accept responsibility and own up to it? Is he that much of a coward?

Yes he is a coward.

Well, I'm feeling a bit down tonight! My WS responded today to the email I sent him 2 1/2 weeks ago. It was a nicely written email, and while some things he said make me feel like he might understand how I'm feeling and how badly he messed up, some things he said just make me more angry.

My WS just doesn't comprehend what he's done, and it's the same old same old!

I have now learned a level of hatred from someone I never knew possible, and I am so sorry I put you in that position. Although you will continue to feel the affair as a mechanism for this, the truth is I have been so unhappy it was a way to see if there was a different me. And now I realize that I did find a different person that completely realized so many things that I've been unhappy about over the years, I know you will just call me selfish for saying that. I still feel that divorce is the right path on my end and hope to move on with my life as I hope you do too.

I have never told my WS that I 'hate' him. Quite the opposite actually, I've only ever loved him. Why can't he understand that my being upset right now is because the pain he's caused me? That I'm angry that he had an affair and didn't address his issues years ago or at least talk to me about it. That I'm angry because he abandoned me. I feel all he wants to do is get me to hate him, as if it would make it easier for him to walk away if I hated him.

Him saying he had an affair to see if there was a 'different me' just makes me sick! Another justification / rationalization / deflection to try and explain why he cheated. You went to find the new you at my expense and didn't take my feelings into account. How do people justify this behavior so easily?

And you want to move forward with your life, yea no kidding! You can't run away fast enough.

I realize you may hate me, think I should rot in hell, or should be punished for the wrong doing I have done to you. As I said before I did not intend on things to happen the way they did and do hope that some way and somehow you may actually want to see me as less a monster and more the man you once knew. I know that is no where in the near future.

See you as "less a monster and more of the man you once knew" -- seriously? Him lying to me the past two years, having an affair, betraying me -- that isn't the man I married! Everything he's done lately is 'monster' behavior. And the pity party comments about rotting in hell and being punished for the wrong doing -- oh boo hoo!

You do deserve to be happy, I just know that I can't offer that to you anymore. I've played this out in my head a thousand times, and all I can see is your rage in my eyes, it is very unhealthy for you and I recognize that there is no apology that would rectify or reconcile what has occurred. I don't want you to be angry or mad all the time, but to try and live life happily and I know that is not something you want to hear from me right now. I have truly loved our relationship up till a few years ago.

Damn straight I deserve to be happy! Truth is, I'm already happy. I am proud of who I am and I like who I am as a person. Happiness is an inside job, not something someone 'offers' you. My being in pain right now doesn't mean I'm not happy.

I find it funny that he says he can see 'rage' in his eyes, all because I stood up to him one time! Narc doesn't like being seen in a negative light and therefore has to deflect on me!

My WS could have handled this so differently. He could have been honest with me two years ago instead of lied to me for two years. He could have gotten help and gone into IC to address his issues a year ago. When he asked my thoughts about an open marriage at Thanksgiving, he could have asked for a separation. When she was standing naked in front of him in the hotel room the first time, he could have told her that he had more respect for me and needed to break things off before sleeping with her. He can't accept responsibility! And now he's suddenly worried about me being angry and mad and that my health may suffer? What did he expect would happen when he broke my heart after betraying my trust and having an affair?

I have put work as a priority to help make me try and ignore a lot and in doing so has caused more frustration and agitation in the process. That is not fair to you and I just wish I would have worked through this with you earlier but it's been building for so long now.

This makes me SO ANGRY! He says he wishes he worked through this with me earlier --- What a cop out! You just weren't man enough to do it. I'm glad he finally admitted that he prioritized work over me though, because he never has acknowledged that he deprioritized me the past 2 years.

The email then listed suggestions for how to split our assets. My WS wants to sell the house sooner rather than later, wants to sell all the cars so that we can split the value, he wants to part from all the items in the house since they bring back 'bad memories', he does want half of my retirement, and wants to give up the dogs so he can move out of state. Of course, he didn't list any of his assets in that list! I guess it just made things real.

I feel like I've been living a lie the last two years. He's taken me for granted, manipulated my time, and I feel SO FOOLISH! He never meant to have our relationship 'end this way' and worries that not meeting face-to-face to discuss everything will cause more harm emotionally to both of us, but he can't even admit to himself that this is the ending we got because he chose it! He made this choice and I've just had to accept it.

He ended it with the following:

I want to reconcile a friendship, but also realize that may not be possible in any form. You probably don't believe me, but I still care for you, still think of you, but I know we have to move on to make this better. I wish this could have been so different, that we could have worked on us better.

Friends? You care for me? You think of me? You wish things had been different? I can't believe anything he says to me anymore.

I cried for about an hour after reading his email. Two steps forward, and a big step back emotionally.

[This message edited by Venus1 at 11:30 PM, April 6th (Tuesday)]

I’m so sorry that you are dealing with all of this Venus. Sadly they often don’t get it, they never understand the pain they cause and you’ll probably not get someone who takes responsibility for it, being their selfish world-view means they are probably lying to themselves and trying to justify it. Don’t look to him for answers or apology, it’s unlikely you’ll get it.

I’d say go into No Contact with him. Don’t even respond to his email as he will likely just cause you more pain if he responds in this fashion. Go speak to a lawyer about proper division of assets and if possible, let the communication be done that way.

Do whatever you need now to heal, don’t think about what he’s thinking, feeling, doing - only focus on you and getting better. Focus on your life goals and things you want in your life and work on those, go out with friends, do some IC to help with the trauma. Take care of yourself.

I'm in a bit of a rush this morning, but absolutely incensed that he wants to try and take you to the cleaners like that. Please call some attorneys today. I have no idea how much you've put away for retirement, but the whole idea that he wants to liquidate your assets like that.... it's beyond the pale. The guy is a fucking adulterer for pete's sake, so just... no.

And he "didn't intend for things to happen this way"??? Bullshit. What did he think was going to happen when he went searching through a porn site for cam whores? or when he agreed to meet with one?? He's a total fucking liar. I also highly doubt that he was "unhappy" for those two years or at any point in the marriage. More likely, his unhappiness is a result of not being able to have his cake and eat it too. IOW, he wasn't "unhappy" with you until he realized he couldn't keep you AND cat around. Ugh! So angry on your behalf right now!

More later. ((hugs))

Get a lawyer. A good one.

No contact with him. That will save your sanity.

He’s a jerk - his words are completely opposite his actions. He only cares about himself.

And it appears to me that he had to take that long to respond to you because he was busy looking up the answers. Because those words are so phony - again - his actions are completely opposite.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:48 AM, April 7th (Wednesday)]

there are so many things wrong with his letter. He choose that word because it makes you the monster not him. It focus on the now not on what he did to deserve it. It makes it sound like you are the one with the problems. You are the one that can't move on and forgive or do what needs to be done.

It also sounds like he needs money fast. The fact that he listed all of those items in this letter... and that he wants to get rid of everything. Sell everything quickly... makes me think he's hurting for money...use this to your advantage.

Focus on getting a shark lawyer and getting everything you can out of the divorce. You shouldn't get stuck with all the old stuff and trying to sell it while he sit's back and just continues to take from you.

Try not to reply to his letter. He's not going to "get-it" his letter proves he only sees and understands what he want to. Also, there is nothing a Narc hates more than being ignored. He's too focused on some cheap (but $$$) married cam girl to process what he's done.

I don't believe you were just a paycheck to him but I do believe he will miss the money before he misses anything else... he might start seeing her for what she is once he's broke and has no one.

[This message edited by Freeme at 10:39 AM, April 7th (Wednesday)]

Venus - no more emotion-laden, pouring your heart out emails to him. Direct his emails straight into a spam folder. Block him on your phone/text. Crate your dogs 1/2 hour early and be gone for the next hour or 2.

And stop asking yourself 'why'. There's no explaining broken to a non-broken person.

Keep up the 180. That means no reaction to him in any way. NONE. Not a nice response, not an angry response, just nothing.

Hang in there and finish getting your ducks in a row.

((((Venus))))

eta - you might also think about how you might go about dealing with the dogs in order to break that tie between you. Give them to him? Keep them both? Split 1 and 1? Adopt them out?

I understand that you must be attached to them, but is it really worth that continued tie?

Think about it.

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 8:29 AM, April 7th (Wednesday)]

I have now learned a level of hatred from someone I never knew possible, and I am so sorry I put you in that position. Although you will continue to feel the affair as a mechanism for this, the truth is I have been so unhappy it was a way to see if there was a different me. And now I realize that I did find a different person that completely realized so many things that I've been unhappy about over the years, I know you will just call me selfish for saying that. I still feel that divorce is the right path on my end and hope to move on with my life as I hope you do too.

This is TOTAL bullshit, and you can tell that from the FACT that he never came to you and talked about it. He didn't come to you saying, "I'm so unhappy" or "I need to find a different me". Note though that he's a DARVO master and the problem isn't his lack of moral integrity or the way he threw his vows away, or his abject refusal to notice YOUR agency as he lied and cheated behind your back. No, the problem is that "you're such a hater."

(Sometimes I wish I had a big red button which could deliver an electroshock to any cheater who found himself on my radar. )

You do deserve to be happy, I just know that I can't offer that to you anymore. I've played this out in my head a thousand times, and all I can see is your rage in my eyes, it is very unhealthy for you and I recognize that there is no apology that would rectify or reconcile what has occurred. I don't want you to be angry or mad all the time, but to try and live life happily and I know that is not something you want to hear from me right now. I have truly loved our relationship up till a few years ago.

You deserve to be happy, right? Bitch cookie for Captain Obvious! But poor little sad sausage can't make you happy any more because... Holy DARVO, Batman... you're a rage monster and your rage is all up in his eyes!!!

Note how he truly loved your relationship, up until a few years ago... right around the time he decided he needed to start rummaging through porn sites looking for hook-ups. But no, it was a great run while it lasted, too bad all this cheating just "occurred". It's not like he had a choice or anything, right? maybe talk it out with his WIFE, maybe skip the online porn and/or refrain from breaking his wedding vows?

I want to reconcile a friendship, but also realize that may not be possible in any form. You probably don't believe me, but I still care for you, still think of you, but I know we have to move on to make this better. I wish this could have been so different, that we could have worked on us better.

With friends like him, who needs... Satan. The guy stabbed you in the back after 16 years, and is trying to give you boo-boo lip because "(friendship) just might not be possible" inferring the "because you're such a hater". But he "still cares". You know how you can tell he DOESN'T "still care" and he DOESN'T "wish we could have worked on us"???? ....because he NEVER provided ANY opportunity for recovery. He never dumped the cam-whore. He never asked for your forgiveness or for how he could make it up to you. He hasn't done anything a remorseful spouse would do.

I'm sorry, because I know you loved this guy and it's so hard when you have a different version stored away in your memory. But wow... I can't even begin to get past his absolute refusal to take any kind of personal responsibility for being a total asshole toward you. He has allowed you to invest 16 years that you can't ever have back and the best he's got to say for it is 'there's no apology good enough for some stuff that "occurred"'.

You know what says "sorry"??? ...home equity. Allowing you to keep your entire retirement.. THAT says "sorry". Giving you back your dogs WITHOUT requiring that you sell your car... there's a "sorry". No wonder he predicts you can't be friends after this. He's planning on liquidating you, and even a giant narcissistic ass can forecast how the post-adultery mugging is most likely to play out.

Ugh, all I can say is... Lawyer. Now,

I'm so sorry, sweetie. You deserved better than this. You really did.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 12:04 PM, April 7th (Wednesday)]

Thank you ChamomileTea!

This rant made my day.

So true on so many levels.

Stay strong Venus1!

And for some (ancient) inspiration, from the Roman poet Ovid:

“Perfer et obdura, dolor hic tibi proderit olim. (Be patient and tough; someday this pain will be useful to you.)”

It hurts while you're going through it, but you will come out stronger on the other side.

((((Venus))))

Venus,

I agree with the previous posters that you should lawyer up in a big way. Sounds like your STBXH wants to move on quickly - either in a hurry to start his "new" life or because he is having money problems. Either way, use this to your advantage. If he wants to settle quick, it should cost him.

Also, when you're attempting to sort out assets and liabilities, make sure you're tallying everything. For example, he wants to give you the dogs. Even though that may be desirable to you, make sure he includes 50% of the total costs (food, veterinary care) associated with the dogs for the expected remainder of their life in any settlement.

You're doing great! Keep up the good work.

[This message edited by BlueRaspberry at 12:50 PM, April 7th (Wednesday)]