SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The children found out about the A on the same Dday (about a month ago), she told them after I caught them in an empty parking (not doing anything explicit but "talking" and likely cuddling in the back seat of our family car); the AP ran away in his car -- I turned around and left, destroyed. She confessed several minutes later when she got home, about the long affair (strong EA + PA). I had some suspicions all along, but I/we were dismissing them jokingly.. she called me paranoid and we laughed: "That can't be true, right?". He is a respectable, successful guy years a very good reputation. He was always very nice and generous with our family.. And he was the one helping me get a job many years ago (where my wife was already working together).

I'm sorry this is going to be a long story as the situation is really messed up and I strongly believe she is NOT a bad person overall, professionally she is brilliant (despite the AP propping her career) and, more importantly, I take the blame for the beginning of their affair (I was a terrible, selfish husband many years ago, details below). All this time she has also been a great mother to our kids, kept our household together so well despite being a very busy working woman, etc. I do admire her in so many ways, including professionally. I actually fell in love with her again, anew -- yes, paradoxically, just when her affair started (according to her version of the timeline at least).

These days, besides the emotional devastation, the betrayal, the length of the affair/double life she had -- she has no remorse, she says she cannot just stop the affair, she's considering separation (not divorce, I'll get. Even in the first few days after Dday she was telling me how much HE means to her, how she cannot leave without him, and she was scolding me for showing my "depression" about the situation, while praising him, how much she likes about him that he is such an optimist, such a positive figure in her life, while I was "always a depressed man" (I wasn't) look, like I am now (!!). On top of all that cruelty, I feel trapped as I cannot even give them a proper reality check (stuck at step 4 from the "Tactical Primer" on this forum) for reasons I will explain below.

Their very tight professional relationship started many years ago.

Relevant personal note, and the reason I am so eager to forgive her now: my pain has a lot of guilt/regret mixed in it, because I failed her horribly 20 years ago, as a husband and a friend. That's why I take some responsibility for the beginning of their affair, because 20 years ago, for about 8 years or more I was a terrible husband, I did not want kids and I kept blaming her for wanting them, both times she got pregnant (even though we were taking precautions). I clearly fell out of love with her around the time she got pregnant with my oldest child, I guess I felt that having kids would "tie" me down and take my freedom away somehow (some stupid male fantasy of that sort) -- it seemed like I had a very bad, early MLC perhaps, in my mid 30s? There is really no excuse for it, I was clearly going through a "terrible, selfish male" phase back then, as we were relocating to the U.S. and she got pregnant with our first child. The worst part was that I was verbally/emotionally abusive with her all that time, even as she was pregnant with our children! She suffered so much at that time, especially because I think she still loved me (we were high school sweethearts, really loved with each other in our 20s when we got married) During that dark time I was like the typical cruel WS, almost ready to leave her, did not quite have an affair but I became infatuated with a co-worker who luckily rejected my advances (wise woman). My wife noticed how strong my interest became towards OW and she suffered even more because of that -- and my verbal/emotional abuse to her only became more intense at that time because of that.

So as my wife was suffering because of me being such a jerk back then, she often came to work crying. She was also very vulnerable emotionally at that time, and he was so caring etc. So no wonder she fell in love with him. She now says he only reciprocated a couple of years later after that. I still think this was quite irresponsible for a advisor/supervisor to do that because if their relationship had gotten exposed they could have both been ruined professionally.

I began to wake up and realize what a terrible husband I was and how much I hurt her.. it was a gradual process though, it took me a while to actually apologize to her and admit what a terrible person I was (I don't even remember when that happened exactly). I seem to recall that she never really said that she forgave me but she suggested that I could work on it. And she even suggested paths to recovery (for me) in her eyes. But I guess I was too slow at following those. Too little too late. Then I recall how years ago, on her birthday, I was looking at one of her very recent photos and I had this epiphany, that she is so beautiful, that I was so lucky to marry her, that she is indeed the woman I want to grow old with.. I felt I fell back in love with her then -- a more mature, dependable love compared to what we had in our twenties. Of course since then I haven't been the perfect husband, but my mindset was finally in the right place (or so I felt), The children say they do not remember anything from my dark bad-husband years (they were too young to remember her mom suffering so much because of me), they only know me how I was in the past years, as a good dad and even a good husband (from what they could know about that anyway).

During these last years she has given me some (mixed) signals that she might be able to forgive me and accept/understand my newfound love for her and maybe even return it, eventually. Little did I know that I was too late, that she started her affair which became so important to her. At the beginning of her affair I seem to recall she was sometimes overly "generous" (or so I felt) in allowing me access to her intimacy (I was of course asking for it very often since I was just re-discovering my love for her etc.). In retrospect, that was a very confusing time for me, as that gave me a lot of hope and a lot of passion for her entire being -- even though overall, she did seem a bit more distant and less affectionate and even emotionally discordant at times. Of course I assumed that was because of how much I hurt her years before. When I felt that she would not return my affection or she did not really seem to care about my feelings for her then, she would reassure me that's just how she is now, that her love is more mature, that she can no longer be that romantic with me after what we've been through etc. I thought that was fair (felt guilty), but could not stop being sad about it sometimes. I had no idea that she already replaced me, in her affection, with the AP.

[This is getting long, I'm going to try make it a 2-parter]

[This message edited by lbh50 at 5:16 PM, May 9th (Saturday)]

In the past few years everything started to degrade though, in our relationship. She would limit her affection to me on all levels now. And there were these strange mental episodes she was having, getting worse in the last few years: simple disagreements between us would occasionally devolve into fights where she was clearly having a nervous breakdown and she would start crying and shouting horrible things at me, that I am hurting her so much or even try to destroy her, that I dismiss her feelings and sometimes bluntly that I am "the most horrible human being".. She would even want to leave the home and drive in that unstable state (I had to take her keys a couple of times) because she just couldn't stand being around/with me.. while I was just begging for her to calm down. The way she was acting was completely discordant with reality, I wasn't saying/doing anything to deserve such a reaction, lately I wasn't even raising my voice during those "episodes" (learned my lesson from previous fights that did not help getting my points across at all). I could only say, repeatedly "that is not true, I am not like that, I am not doing that" -- and that was the reality, but she wouldn't see it. The kids would hear her, of course (she was incredibly loud when she was in that state, it sounded pathological) and a couple of times they came over and tried to calm her down, even tried to defend me from the absurd things she was shouting. At some point I realized (and I told her) that the only way those things she's shouting made sense was if she was addressing the bad person I was years ago, when I was truly that terrible, emotionally abusive person who really made her suffer. But I was no longer that person (and the children are my witness to that, she does not seem to be able to see it in those moments).

Back to the painful present. I know some people might suggest to blow everything up, punish my WW and her AP by reporting them to the HR, make a public scandal that would get them fired, divorce, and start a new life..

It's not that simple. I have to think at what's best for my children. We live in a nice house, in a great school district so we need two incomes to support this home and the future of our children. Destroying my wife's professional life is not only unfair (again, because I do believe in her, professionally, because I have worked with her) but would also impact all of the above -- we'll have to move, downsize etc. She does make a bit more money than me now. Also, I trust that she still wants what's best for her children (short of living with me, or abandoning her lover, I got that much) so she already gave me hints that she's considering a separation where she would move with him, perhaps (?) but continue to pay for the house, for our children's college etc. as if she's still with us. As hard it is for me to accept that, I believe her that she would actually do that, because I know she ultimately loves her children -- she just does not/cannot love me, I have to come to peace with that..

Of course I have a lot of anger against the AP for what I think was essentially preying on my wife when she was most vulnerable (when they started the affair), and then controlling her career and stringing her along for so long as the convenient younger mistress, keeping her so dependent on him emotionally and professionally... Of course getting him fired and wiping that overconfident smile off his nice professor face is extremely tempting but I just cannot do that, I cannot expose and punish only him without endangering my wife's career and thus my children's welfare.

So I feel I'm stuck, trapped.

I learned days later that they are scrambling to make that option 1) as discrete as possible: at work they'll still keep their relationship private (as they did it for so many years, they had a lot of practice!), he would just quietly divorce his wife and they can move in together etc. (my wife was telling me about exploring that scenario a couple of weeks ago, exactly what I wanted to hear these days..)

Again, I'm trying to keep it together (can barely focus, my productivity is through the floor) and resist the temptation of trying to destroy this man who I despise so much now. I am not the vengeful type and I surely do not want my wife to suffer (professionally or otherwise), and thus the children to suffer any more than they already did.

She was already telling me these days how much SHE suffers at the thought of possibly losing him, because he has meant so much to her etc. Again, exactly what I wanted to hear these days.. No thoughts of remorse.. And she even criticized me for being so gloomy in front of the children, because that kind of attitude turns them against her..(they are already, because of what she did.. but she seems to be in denial about that, or that I may just make it worse for her..). I am a bad, bad man (in her mind).

Yes, I read about the 180, I'm trying some of that, but it is hard, it's not me, I am too weak and too troubled now about being discarded and replaced like that in her soul, I still believe she was the best thing that happened in my life and I cannot imagine being with any other woman.

[This message edited by lbh50 at 4:39 PM, May 9th (Saturday)]

Nope. Blow their shit up at work. Get the biggest, bad-ass, bulldog attorney you can find. Sue her on grounds of adultery. Name him in the suit, and if you live in a state that allows "alienation of affections" lawsuits, sue him directly. Go for everything in the settlement that the law allows.

You know what you deserved if you were an asshole early on in the marriage??? ....a divorce. NO ONE deserves to be cheated on and lied to for an entire decade. No one. If she had a problem with your treatment of her, she could have (and should have) taken the appropriate action.

Your kids will be fine. Maybe they won't have the golden ticket for college. Maybe they might need a student loan and a part-time job. That shit builds CHARACTER... character they're NOT going to learn at home while their mother walks the fuck all over their father.

I'm sorry this happened to you, but seriously man, don't nail yourself to the cross for shit you did decades ago. Your WW wasn't chained up in the basement. She had options. And instead of utilizing them, she chose to cheat. That's on her and it tells you what's in HER character.

Strength and healing to you. ETA.... and FREEDOM.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 1:37 AM, May 2nd (Saturday)]

Just a couple of things that jump out at me

she has no remorse, she says she cannot just stop the affair, she's considering separation

Why would you let an unremorseful cheater make the decisions about your marriage? You need to take full control of the situation. You get to decide if you separate or divorce, not her. She obviously wants to separate so she can see if he will leave his wife to be with her. If she demands separation, file for divorce and have her served. You can always stop the process at some point if you want.

The other thing is, you need to inform POSOM's betrayed wife about the affair. That will get him thinking about losing his reputation and half of everything he's worked for, including his pension.

These actions are not about manipulating her, but about putting YOU in the drivers seat moving forward, regardless of the final outcome.

Welcome to a forum you never wanted to be in.

Our goal here is to help you out of infidelity.

Firstly, on the top left hand corner of this page, is 'The Healing Library'. Click on it and it will take you to a number of aids to help you through this.

You also need to ensure that you are getting nourishment. Food or protein/meal shakes. Ensure that you are hydrating, and limit any alcohol intake.

Sleep is very important for you right now, and if needs be, you may need to seek sleep medication.

Exercise is also something you need to consider. It helps burn excess energy. Increase your endorphine release, and improve your physical and mental strength.

Your choices for getting out of infidelity are two fold. Reconciliation or divorce.

If you are seeking reconciliation. From the upset.. a 10 yr relationship, with such a history between them, will be very hard and probably unrealistic to break.

However, there are some success stories out there, but these would be very few, and the fight, very long and hard. Breaking the bond that has been created would take time, patience, and you would need a tough skin.

If you seek divorce, there are points to consider to make it as successful as possible.

Normally, time to allow emotions to settle, is best before you decide. However, with your wife's current mindset and plans, you don't appear to have this.

You need to start taking control of the situation otherwise you will be tossed from pillar to post. What you need to do immediately is to notify the AP(affair partners) wife of the affair.

She needs the right to know what is happening in her life, so that she can also make decisions, can have control of what she can do. Otherwise she will not have a clue of what is about to explode. She will develop all sorts of emotional trauma possibly wondering what she had done to caused this. She was an innocent party, and all the children as well. It is right thing to do.

You may find that when the affair partner realizes that his world is about to explode. All of a sudden, these great plans of riding off into the sunset, are not so grand. He may even throw your wife under the bus. Do not let your wife know this before hand, and if she does confront you after, explain the necessity of your whys.

This brings some light into the situation. These type of situations thrive in the dark.

Next, Lawyer up. The best bulldog you can find. If you can obtain a list of the best lawyers in your area, contact and ensure that you have a preliminary consultation with them, so that your wife is unable to use them.Then choose the best of them.

This gives you some things to commence with.

Keep your head up, and keep posting. There are a lot of people here who have been through the same situations, and have experience to help you.

So I feel I'm stuck, trapped. After Dday I had a discussion (Zoom) with the two of them (WW and AP), told them they have to stop the deceit, the illegitimate affair by either 1) taking their relationship in the open, i.e. him telling his wife and separating from her and them moving it together whatever -- but no more hiding! or 2) just stop the affair and keep it "professional".. (NC much? working together?!). He immediately jumped on 1), said he's seriously considering that option, and he was quite surprised that I gave them that option.. It was a few days after Dday, I was still in shock and confused but I was trying to be the "better man".. I was mostly bluffing with that option thinking he could never risk exposure like that.

I learned days later that they are scrambling to make that option 1) as discrete as possible: at work they'll still keep their relationship private (as they did it for so many years, they had a lot of practice!), he would just quietly divorce his wife and they can move in together etc. (my wife was telling me about exploring that scenario a couple of weeks ago, exactly what I wanted to hear these days..)

Really? You're conspiring with your wife's AP against his BW? I'm sorry for what your going through but shame on you! You should be going directly to her and exposing them both and the affair, especially if you live in at fault state!

You say you had a one sided affair years ago, it shows here, giving him a way out like that.

As for them holding your job over you, you actually have the upper hand. Report them and their threats of withholding funding directly to the college/university. I'm pretty sure IT support is a fundamental role in any department so the funding will already be budgeted for. The question is do you really want to keep working with the pair of them.

I repeat TELL THE WIFE.

I strongly believe she is NOT a bad person overall,

First...get that shit out of your head. Your wife is not a good wife, nor mother, nor person.

Your entire post focuses on her having no remorse and how you can't do anything about the A.

May I ask why post here at all if all that is the case?

I mean... your wife is a wonderful person who is in a 10 yr affair and showing no remorse and you want to do nothing.

Brother....SHAKE YOURSELF!

Stop wallowing in self pity and get angry!

If you want to save your marriage, it won't happen on the path you've taken.

First thing to realize is, she is no longer the sweet, loving woman you married. Nothing she does right now will seem in character. Nothing she says will be truth. This will sound contradictory to the goal of reconciling, but WWs only respect strong, firm action. Crying, begging, asking why, all that will drive her away.

Her declaring that she still continue her A and getting angry at you not liking it?

Fuck. That.

You want to save your marriage? Then act RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

First, expose. EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE. To everyone: her family, his family, their workplace (consequences be damned), mutual friends. Affairs thrive as long as no one knows. Shining light on them will send them scurrying away from each other like cockroaches running from light. When she tells you afterwards that bc you exposed, she's not sure you guys will work out anymore, ignore it. They all say stupid shit like that.

After exposure, you file. Have her served. And then tell her that she has until the D is final to convince you that she's worth it for you to call it off and give her another chance. If she does nothing, then she truly is not worth it.

Also, a 10 year A.... they definitely fucked in your bed, so you tell her she needs to replace your bed or you will cause a scene and burn it in the yard for everyone to see and they'll know exactly why you're doing it.

Or do nothing, expect nothing and watch her continue her A.

Boss having a 10 year A with your wife, thinking of firing you because of a possible hostile work environment?? Big boy pants Now!!

Mr Professor has been, and is still abusing his authority over your wife and you. There has been a serious conflict of interest here of 10 years.

Ok ;you were a shitty husband when this started. Prof took advantage seduced your WW and most likely kept you position at that level. Contact a employment solicitor ASAP for your legal rights. WW has chosen him, a married man over family, don’t let her walk all over your relationship with your children so she and Prof can set up happy family where you get restricted access to your children until they leave for college, calling him Dad!

Get angry 😡. The employer is culpable for this and need to be informed. She has chosen him, HR get them on speed dial. Release the dogs of war! Metaphorically speaking. Go and inform his spouse ASAP, wife has lied for 10 years, there is 0 trust. Verify everything she says now says until D. She is protecting Prof, not her children.

If she recants, loves you and wants to remain (on her terms) No! She will continue in her open relationship regardless and just not tell you. A thrive in the dark, shine a light on them both for all to see. Parents, family, but be carful pertaining to your children. Work colleges, and family friends.

You shouldn’t accept what is being offered, so to appease them. What example does this set for your children.?

As per what Chamomile Tea stated; get the meanest, bad assed lawyer onto them. 1) D lawyer for WW, 2) Prof named as long term adulterous partner, and 3) Prof and possible other Board members who new of the 10 year A as hostile work area and if possible wrongful termination.

Pack a bag for her and drop it off at Mr & Mrs Prof house, let them know she is moving in. Have them both served at work! Even suggest to have a deposition in the foyer at work, so all can see! Your marriage, employment is over, get angry! Get tested.

One day at a time

Buffer

I’m sorry you find yourself here.

STOP making excuses for her, stop blaming yourself. You are afraid to make a move because it will destroy several lives?

Lives are already being destroyed, You need to blow this up and stop trying to fix it.

If you follow the great advice you will get here it’s going to be hard, but you and your kids will come out better on the other side, because you put your foot down got your family out of infidelity.

Please know the people have been in the same place you are, some of the advice will seem harsh and be hard to hear, but stick with SI it’s your safe place. Best wishes

First off I wanted to tell you how sorry I am that you find yourself here. You will find the people here are awesome and they have truly helped me keep my sanity. Others will continue to give you better advice than I can (I am fairly new here also). I believe that LTA’s are a special kind of hell and I speak from experience.

Please listen when I say this....repeat it to yourself over and over again. YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR HER AFFAIR. She had options...so many options yet she choose the affair. There had been years of lies and not matter what state your marriage was in, an affair should never be one of these options.

You need to get out of the infidelity. And the others are very correct in saying the way out is to expose. Tell the BS and your employers and anyone else you feel you that can give you support. Find an IC for you and a lawyer. Your wife and the AP are in self protection mode and you need to do the same...for yourself and your kids. Read up in the healing library...especially the 180. It will help you emotionally and help you gain some clarity.

I am so very angry for you. The way you have been treated is appalling. Sending you a virtual hug. This is likely the worst thing you have ever faced but you will get through this.

Contact a employment solicitor ASAP for your legal rights.

I think Buffer has a good point. Don't settle for just a family law attorney. If you need two attorneys, one for the divorce and another to litigate against the workplace, then get two. It sounds like you might have a pretty good case, particular if there are threats of letting you go. A large settlement from the employer might go a long, long way toward rebuilding your life.

She didn't just cheat on you - she cheated on your kids too.

1 - Do you have proof?

2 - Expose the affair to the OM's wife. Do not warn your wife or they will discredit you as crazy. Do not assume the OM will choose your wife. He has a lot to loose and is more likely to dump your wife.

3 - Speak with an attorney specializing in sexual harassment at work.

Since the OM was your supervisor as well as your wife's (who clearly took advantage his position of power & trust) you may be able to sue the university for damages. Why? because your state may hold your employer responsible for the acts of their supervisors.

This story of abuse by a highly respected supervisor in the academic community is so disgusting the university will likely be motivated to settle (pay you to shut up) rather than let this go public.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 7:07 AM, May 2nd (Saturday)]

The advice you're receiving probably sounds extreme to you. That's because:

It's not intuitive but experience shows that the most successful strategy to save your marriage (if that's what you want) is to show zero tolerance for their affair.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 9:31 AM, May 2nd (Saturday)]

In all my years here I've not seen a case that required a scorched earth response until I read your story. You need to take matters into your hands now because your wife and your boss are about to f*ck you out of a job.

It can be done in a very calm and measured way. Your wife is taking care of the crazy. You need to be the sane one.

Lawyer up. A mean divorce one. You might need an employment lawyer too.

Notify the other BS. Notify HR too.

As it is now, your wife is not coming back. It takes 2 really committed people to reconcile. It only takes one to divorce. And your wife wants out.

I am so sorry this is happening to you. I don't want to see you being a door mat.

Hi lbh50,

One thing that's important for you to start wrapping your head around as soon as you can is that affairs follow patterns. WS's follow a standard script. APs follow a standard script. BS's follow a standard script.

That means *you* are following a standard script.

What's important here is to recognize that you, your wife, and her boyfriend are no exception to this. There is nothing special about your situation or this affair. There are no "special exceptions" to your situation because it's *just unique enough* to not require the same interventions and actions by you that other BS's have had to take.

This is a run-of-the-mill story.

We were all once like you. I once made a first post just like this one, where I gave all the logical reasons for the A, my "responsibility" for it, and how sweet and wonderful my WW was. It was hard for me to hear the truth about the steps I needed to take for quite a while, and I really hurt myself in the end.

It's important that you recognize that as soon as you can so that you can begin to take the appropriate steps. Otherwise, you're just hurting yourself, ruining your chances to achieve what you hope to achieve here (and there are no guarantees), and simply risking another several weeks/months/years of absolute hell and god knows how many more DDays.

There are three paths forward for any husband in the wake of DDay. Here they are:

1) Reconcile with your wife. This takes two people doing incredibly hard work for an approximate period of 2-5 years, and then of course the lifetime beyond that. There is no guarantee that it will work, and your wife needs to come with you. It's not something you can do on your own.

2) Divorce your wife. You can do this on your own.

3) Do nothing, really. Your wife continues to have a boyfriend (they may go deeper underground for your "comfort"), but you get to keep your "marriage." You can keep your house, you can all continue working together, etc. You can probably even go to dinner parties and have sex with her once in a while.

Do not fool yourself into thinking there is a fourth option. There isn't.

So you need to answer a big question: which one of these options do you really, really want? And are you willing to do what you need to do to get there?

For #3, you don't need any advice and you can stop posting here altogether.

If #1 or #2 is right for you, just tell us, and you can get solid, serious advice for what your next steps should be.

There are problems in some of your thought processes here, and you're making some mistakes with your words and actions.

Do you really want to get out of this mess? It's possible. But it's time to wake up, open yourself up to the advice here, and start taking some action. What you're doing now is only hurting you and prolonging your agony.

Are you ready?

[This message edited by Okokok at 8:53 AM, May 2nd (Saturday)]

Ibh50:

Sorry you find yourself here. You have received good advice already to go scorched earth. It is the right thing to do. Blow up their world. Expose them. See an attorney to learn your rights. Your WW and her AP have abused you terribly. You spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on your faults and past actions in the M. A M is a union of two imperfect people. Your WW is not perfect, and you were in the same M, but you didn’t cheat. Your WW had many options to resolve any marital issues with you. She failed. She cheated because she wanted to do it. Period. Nothing you did or didn’t do in your M caused her to cheat.

Always value yourself. Get into IC and work on you. Become stronger. Regain your self respect. Focus on what you want in your future. Demonstrate for your children how a betrayed spouse acts with self respect and firmness. You need to get over your false rationalizations that you somehow caused her to betray you. Stand up for yourself. Good luck.

lbh50

Sorry you are hurting.

It sounds as if your head is spinning, which is understandable. Can you get some IC for support? ASAP?

Cmon man. 10 years?

You’re trying to justify the unjustifiable.

A lot of betrayed spouses want to try and take blame perhaps thinking if they caused it they can fix it. Nope, this is who she is.

You’re taking it to a whole new level here. Bud, you didn’t cause her to cheat. She’s been living another life.

You’d better wake up. Quickly

This is a situation that requires HR and their professional colleagues to be informed of the affair. Tell his wife everything. Tell your and her immediate family members. Blow this affair up. And if you do, let them know this affair is a 10 year affair. Blow it up and file for divorce.

In all my years here I've not seen a case that required a scorched earth response until I read your story.

^This^

Limbo - "in a forgotten or ignored place, state, in an uncertain or undecided state or condition."Is this where you want to spend the rest of your life?

You were in the same marriage as your wife. She cheated, did you? If not then who is the villain in this? She not only deceived you for ten years but your children as well. Your WW and her AP are not good people. Stop blaming yourself and get a new perspective on this, one based in reality. Get yourself into IC so the ten years of gaslighting and verbal abuse your WW has inflicted on you can be undone.

Btw there are two sections of this site you should read through that deal with long-term affairs.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=610771

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=635506