SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Please stop saying shit like this to your wife.

Please stop trying to make her understand how much you love her.

Please stop trying to make her understand how much she has hurt you.

Please stop.

She doesn't give a shit how you feel.

She doesn't respect you.

***

You must be stone or fire, not hearts or roses.

I know it is hard.

I know it is early in your process.

All of us giving you this advice, almost all of us made the same mistakes for a while.

And it is a mistake to bare your heart to this woman anymore.

***

If she brings up the dog even once more, tell her and tell the breeder that if the dog shows up in your home, the moment she leaves it will be taken to a shelter.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 8:49 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

WOW Good luck buddy. Of course, we will never know the situation like you do. But there are some really obvious red flags here and I know some of the stuff doesn’t make sense to you at the moment. Take what you think applies to you and your situation and ignore the rest. Of course, we want the best for you because we understand and empathise. We’ve been in your situation. Just remember one thing. You’re the victim here. And whatever you do, don’t rub sweep because that will be a problem down the track.

[This message edited by Mene at 8:52 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

I think she is baiting you and setting you up. My husband:

- Gets angry all the time

- Is hateful towards me

- Won't let me get a dog

- Wants to separate

- Won't look for another job even when I am desperate for some respite from being the sole financial supporter of this family.

etc etc

I can see no other reason for her actions and words. She is as far from remorseful as I have seen any spouse be who claims that they want to reconcile.

Please check with OBS re timing of the night walks. Do a hard 180 and only talk about finances and the children. Suggest you may well add divorce to that list.

Also stop getting angry and shouting at her. You are playing into her hands.

You say you know your wife. Yet,she managed to have a LTA without you knowing. She's obviously capable of great deception.

Your wife is not in shock. She knew she was having an affair. She may be shocked that you found out. And that the AP never cared for her. But she's been fully aware of what was going on for a long time.

I am not projecting. I am actually reconciled, for many years. I dont see a lot of projection in this thread. What I see is that the overwhelming majority can see what's going on here. But,then, we aren't clouded by love for her.

I wish you luck. Just know,in all the years I've been reading these forums,when a BS returns,I have never seen anyone say I told you so. Because, we get it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:25 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

I don't believe she's consciously manipulating you. I believe she's a victim and a martyr to a (in her mind) stale and unfulfilling marriage and life, and now that the fantasy that she could have it all with someone else has been ripped away from her, she's trying to fill the hole inside her with the things she thinks would make her life better . . . the dog she always wanted, you working and not being financially dependent upon her.

What she doesn't realize is that the grass is greenest where you water it. She's expecting happenstance and other people to water her grass. She's entitled. She thinks that happiness comes from external touchstones rather than internal choices. All of her actions make sense in the context of someone who believes that you/the marriage/external factors are at fault for her being unhappy and having an affair. People who are remorseful don't huffily say, "I'm remorseful!" and then criticize the reactions of the spouse they have traumatized and betrayed.

[This message edited by swmnbc at 6:33 AM, March 14th, 2019 (Thursday)]

People who are remorseful don't huffily say, "I'm remorseful!" and then criticize the reactions of the spouse they have traumatized and betrayed.

Great point and I'd like to point out that every single case I have seen on SI of a WS who claims they're remorseful early on and without the enthusiastic agreement of the BS had divorced. Every single one. It's an R killer. May not happen today but eventually her attitude will get to you.

Bahama, very very few people have told you to D. Very few. What everyone has said is to be careful, to protect yourself, to get more legal advice just in case, and to stop doing things that validate her remorseless behaviors and imply that you take responsibility for things that are completely normal for a BS such as the anger. That is all good advice and ALL of it is geared towards a successful R. None of it is projection. None of us are these D hungry bitter people you have painted us as. Hell, I found out about everything after the relationship ended and now I'm happily married. We have nothing in common on that front.

When BSes here show a tendency to be codependent and get defensive, they see people telling them to D in any negative comment about their WS or R. So many great R stories started when the BS said "no more" to the remorseless behavior, put their foot down, and made it clear that the WS can either join them or get the hell out of their way. But you will never get there if you keep apologizing and allowing her to play the victim. It will never happen. She will cling to that narrative as long as you allow it. And either she will feel justified in leaving you or you will get fed up and leave her. I have seen this exact same scenario play out over and over again from the years that I've been here. It doesn't work. It's one of the most guaranteed recipes for D outside of further infidelity but honestly, the WSes who can fake remorse better than your WW can usually get more time and chances. That's why you're getting the advice that you're getting and it has nothing to do with wanting you to file for D tomorrow.

Hi Bahama

We hear you.

Believe me we know. This shit is hard.

And as I said in my last post, you love her. Of course you do. You can’t just shut that off. And you are who you are. It’s gonna take time thru therapy to simultaneously work thru your pain and how you can get to a point where you can feel safe with her again. In the mean time it’s not easy to just stop caring for her.

So I’m not going to ask you to.

Might she be playing you? Yes. Could you end up becoming an SI BS poster in 2021 telling newbies who find their way here “I wish I had filed for D immediately” or “I wished I had listened” and all the other thing sour experiences posters are saying?

Yes. It may even be probably.

But that’s life isn’t it? Getting hurt, giving that person another chance, and possibly or probably getting hurt by them again. She may play you like that. None of us, including you right now, can really know.

You seem like a strong guy who if knocked down enough times will still be able to find the strength to finally move on and find happiness without her and without you breaking down.

But I agree with you on one thing. Even though you haven’t specifically said it. Your wife doesn’t have the same strength as you. Not emotionally.

As best as I can tell thru an internet wire, she may be having a nervous breakdown. It will be interesting to hear what happens in IC. She should be going twice a week if possible. Too bad she won’t be able to go next week.

If she really has no one to talk to about this, she may also feel isolated.

Again, she could also be an evil genious. But I’d put it around 60/40 that she really doesn’t know how to process what’s she’s done and how to fix it, even when presented with the tools to do so.

She is so far in left field right now with what she’s trying to do that it appears to be the actions, in some ways, of a moderate psychopath. I don’t mean to insult and I don’t mean she is dangerous, but to suggest getting a dog to a husband who is allergic after spending 6 months f*cking another man is sociopathic behavior.

Honestly Bahama, I’m not against you trying to get her help before you expecting anything else from her like helping you heal or working on the marriage.

But I know one thing. You cannot be the person to help her, no matter how much you tell her you are there for her.

It cannot come from you.

I don’t know what your relationship is like with her family, maybe start with her sister if she’s talking to you, but perhaps describe to her what’s happening. Tell her sister your concerns. Tell her you can’t be her healer while you are trying to heal yourself.

If her sister sees the lunacy in what your WW is doing See if she is willing to reach out and possibly be that ear Mrs Bahama needs or perhaps if she will intervene.

Your WW needs guidance and it canNOT come from you. It would be great if she could post on wayward side here, but I in NO WAY want you to reveal this site to her. You need this lifeline and should not risk losing it.

Do you know of a couple where the wife cheated and they have reconciled? Or perhaps you can find a support group that will support her through attempting reconciliation.

Finally Bahama, if you say anything to her tell her that you each should focus on healing yourselves thru IC before attempting any repairing of the Marriage right now.

Maybe call a truce of any discussion of the A while you are on vacation. Tell her you expect her to maintain NC. Also tell her you each should account for your whereabouts to the other 100% of the time. And if you do that for a little while, you can hold off on big discussions until you get some good individual therapy under your belts.

Maybe that will give her some room to catch her breath in all of this.

But I agree with all the others here. No more apologizing to her. You’ve done nothing wrong. Go as far as telling you that you care for her and that you want her to get some support before you guys have any more big discussions.

I hope this works for you Bahama. I can’t say I’m optimistic right now, but I’m trying to hear what you are saying you need at this time.

Right now you are our primary concern. I know you think you can handle all this, but the truth is, as much as your WW needs support, so do you, thru this terrible time.

My thoughts are with you.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:52 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

Thank you for telling us about the depression. That makes things a lot clearer. If you use a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being euphoria it helps understand depression. Those of us lucky enough to live at 7 or 8 or occasionally 9 have difficulty understanding someone’s emotional pain who lives at a 3 or 4. In fact if we have a down day we panic. We know what it feels like to be reasonably happy with our lives. Those sad souls who can’t get to 7/8/9 without medication have no idea what a good day feels like. Some of those unhappy people cheat because it jolts their brains with “feel good” hormones and they have momentary euphoria. The downside to that is guilt, yearning, anger and more sadness. Do I excuse her cheating? Absolutely not? What I do suggest is that she get an appointment ASAP to see if she needs her meds tweaked. She can’t help you heal if she is so far down that hell hole of depression she can’t see daylight.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 9:50 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

It appears she has a plan to change those no answers to her lawyers questions. It was a mutual agreement for you to become a SAHD, except now she she needs you to work and contribute financially, see, I keep sending him job listings and he does nothing. He is verbally abusive, see what happened when I tried to get the girls another puppy. The coup-de-gras, a DV charge.

You need to see a lawyer IMMEDIATELY, get a VAR and record interactions, and start HARD 180 (communication only about kids and finances).

I’m glad you didn’t send that letter, here I edited it for you:

I’m moving out of infidelity, you are welcome to join me, or not.

For God sakes please stop saying /thinking:

I'm going to wait for you now. For how long I can't say.

and start thinking, I moving out of infidelity..

[This message edited by DeWittle at 9:51 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

I hear you Bahama. I found SI a year after my DD. In some ways finding SI late was bad because SI would have encouraged me to be less trusting of my husband - and they would have been right. I probably would have pushed him harder and been less worried about his emotional state had I had SI. In some ways that would have been good.

BUT in some ways not finding SI at first night have been good. When I posted my story on SI I got some responses that were extreme and more hostile to my H than was helpful.

SI is great because As are hard to talk about and you feel really alone and here you find a place where people understand. But that said, at the end of the day you need to live your own life.

I don't know your M. What helped me was (a) to not get fixated on an outcome - save the m or D. You don't have enough information to make that decision. Clearly you love your W and there must be reasons why you want to R. But she may not ultimately be the right person for you. Either outcome is possible.

(B) reduce your dependance on the M. Use this time to put yourself in a position where if you D it's ok. This way you are not making decisions out of fear. You may want to consider looking for work so you feel empowered.

[This message edited by Babette2008 at 6:53 AM, March 14th (Thursday)]

Bahama, we know you know your WW, however you have never experienced infidelity with her before (you didn't know her well enough to know she was capable of cheating on you), this is where SI can help, almost 70,000 people have come to this site before you (check your member number), the collective wisdom of SI is real and has stood the test of time, yes every case is different, but we told you from the get go she was NOT remorseful, despite you insisting that she was, we told you to expose the A with family and OBS and helped you prepare for confrontation, which was a great one btw, we've been telling you to consult a couple of D attorneys from the get go to at least know your legal options if you had not taken decisive action on Dday, I think you would be in an even worse situation today, yes every case is different but cheaters typically follow a similar script, and let me tell you, based on what you've posted so far your case is far from unique, and rather common, the way your WW has reacted before and post Dday comes straight from the cheater's handbook, first gaslighting, then denial, admission only after overwhelming evidence, blameshifting, no remorse, pining for AP, mad because you failed to hide her A and decided to expose her with family, not doing the necessary work, and a big etcetera.

Almost immediately after Dday you lost control again and fear took over you and you let your WW manipulate you, I just read a new poster here whose WS contracted chlamydia, yet you haven't even demanded an STD test from her and see the results, after rightfully demanding she stop taking her cheating pills and that she sought alternative treatment to her problems (she even told you to get a vasectomy so she could get off them), you seem to just retreat and allow her to do whatever and walk all over your needs and feelings, now the dog knowing full well you're allergic to them, you are apparently trying to nice her back into the M (I've never seen the pick me dance and that approach work btw). We're not projecting anything, we've just seen this play out way too many times here and other forums, THOUSANDS of times, every single phase of it, for a couple of weeks now you've been trying your way of being way too understanding and being way too nice to her, needless to say I don't think you like the results so far. So far you've been hellbent on saving the M she already killed as opposed to getting out of infidelity, if she wants to follow you out of it then you may have a chance, but it has to come from her for the right reasons and not just because her plan A to ride into the sunset with AP fell apart.

I hear everyone. I'm in the arena here and looking at the situation. My mind listens to what you all are saying but my gut is contrarian to the masses.

As it should be. NO ONE knows your situation the way that you do. Take what you need and leave the rest. The sad fact is that sometimes people do project their own point of view and their own experiences. Sometimes that can be helpful and sometimes it's not. It's up to you to decide what is pertinent and what isn't a good fit. Never feel pressured to adopt someone else's POV.

I agree that she is not acting rational.

That's typical. Rational, adult human beings with a healthy psychology DO NOT address their dissatisfaction with life/marriage/career/etc. by cheating on their mate. Nothing she did while she was cheating actually solved a single problem. Her actions were irrational. So, it's too early to expect perfect remorse or even good support. A WS is still lost at this point, even if they're otherwise sincere.

She's not herself.

And I think this is what some posters are uncomfortable with. Because sometimes it truly is a case of a WS not being themselves for whatever fucked up reason. But other times, we've misjudged the person we thought we married. Is our WS in a "fog" of delusion or are we seeing under the mask? For some of us, our WS is in crisis and behaving irrationally and it's a temporary state of being. For others, the truth about the character of the person we've tied our lives to is finally revealed. Only you can know which is true.

Instead of being the punisher, I feel I need to still be the great husband I am.

Once you've committed to R, one of the first truths you acquire is that punishment and reconciliation are NOT compatible. They're polar opposites. It's a hard pill to swallow, and it's not for everyone. For some people, adultery is a deal-breaker, and there's nothing wrong with that. Reconciliation is never owed to a cheater. If we decide to offer it, and I really believe we should spend some time in contemplation, we need to be as good as our offer. That's a tall order when you think about it.

This process doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a constantly changing dynamic with no rules.

Exactly. And that's why you need to define your boundaries while still extending grace. You don't want to compromise on core values, but everything else is up for grabs. I think, at times, people get advice which doesn't allow for ANY compromise, but that's not even normal marriage, let alone recovering marriage. Not everything is "rugsweeping" or "the pick me dance". The difference is CORE VALUES. If you're being asked to compromise who you are than you're being asked for too much. If the requests are for normal, married couple things, than it's something you'd be doing anyway.

We need to create some rules. We need to show some respect towards one another no matter how we are feeling at any given moment

.

You can find some really good information on communications by punching into your browser "four horseman gottman" and reading the articles you find. The first step is to really understand what is helpful and what is harmful. Gottman's Four Horseman are Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling. While I see some of the Horseman in what you've described, I haven't seen the big bully and the precursor to divorce, Contempt.

I'm still maintaining a soft 180, but I want to give her a chance.

The 180 was first designed by Michelle Weiner Davis in a bid to elicit attraction in the face of unwanted divorce. Personally, I don't believe in playing games, and I don't think most of us would want a partner we had to lure back into the marriage. It's a great tool, however, for creating emotional distance so the BS can evaluate his/her position. If a WS is engaged and not actively cheating, I don't think it has merit.

I worry some of you on here who are pushing me hard for D or drastic measures are perhaps projecting what happened in your situation onto me.

No one here is an expert. It's just a message board and there's no licensing required. People do project and they do give anecdotal evidence to support their opinion, but at the bottom line, YOU are in charge of what you take on board.

I'm just going to give her some time and a chance. Let's see what happens.

Your WW is a tough read. If I'm offering advice, I'm saying to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Don't get caught flat-footed again. Yes, compromise is okay as long as you're not anteing up core values. But no, you can't be 100% sure as to whether you're dealing with a good candidate for R yet. Most so-called "experts" will tell you that there's a "fake it 'til you make it" aspect to R. IOW, when you're not sure you're 'out', go ahead and explore being 'in'. But don't do it stupidly without an exit strategy because you don't know if what you're dealing with is earnest effort of another mask.

Strength to you as you process.

You don't have to second guess everything and attribute ulterior motives to your WW's actions. That obviously will not help you in this crisis, especially when things are so raw.

But OTOH, you should also stop believing that your WW is desperate to keep you. You are going back and forth between one extreme to the other. Believing that she is very much into you and then believing that she is planning for an exit. While the truth is she probably is not as serious as she sounds to be.

But does her intentions matter anymore? Look at her actions as time progresses, while detaching yourself from her to know that you will be ok no matter what happens. Now this is the real 180. Stop looking at your WW's intentions and stop reacting to what you think those are. The best way forward is to quietly watch her actions as long as they aren't breaking the minimum requirements such as NC, boundaries, etc and then decide if she has actually come around to be really remorseful.

A remorseful WS is never defensive, accepts 100% of the blame for the A and shows empathy. How many of the checkboxes does your WW check now?

Spot on, Hadji.

Did you look up the little code on the bc pills to make sure they were what she said they were? Also, they should be in varying colors. Usually, the fourth week of pills is a different color than the others. My daughter takes Yaz, so if I could be of assistance let me know.

Going to be blunt here, so don't read this if you are not up to having blunt advice.

From your response, you are still justifying things for your WW. You no doubt care about her, but it looks like you have put your own needs aside to cater to hers.

She can see that you are putting your own needs aside, and as such, has taken up behaviour appropriate to protecting herself, and be the victim that everyone will rush to. Please don't feed that monster, as it will grow and will consume you and the M rapidly.

The love you have for her shows through all your posts, and the pain is palpable. Problem is, we as outsiders, look at the situation you are in dispassionately, and see the forest as we are not blocked by the trees. The pain could well be preventing you from seeing the forest.

You WW does not respect you. She is pushing your buttons on purpose. To what purpose? Not too sure yet. A possible reason could be, is that she is tired of shouldering the burden of the only breadwinner (hence the emails about jobs)? She wants to switch roles so that she can stay at home, and spend more time with your kids?

Whatever the case, stop making excuses for her, and trying to rationalise with her about what you are feeling, and hoping that she will empathise with you. She is still stuck in la-la land, dreaming about her fantasy like in the tween romance novels.

Take charge of the narrative. You set the pace, and she can either join you, or get left behind.

She probably preferred the AP as the AP was her equal, or even because her AP led her, and all she had to do was follow. The romance novels tell her that is how it should be.

Have you tried not replying to any of her messages? Even those asking 'How was your day?', or 'How re you feeling?', or 'Why are you angry at me?' *crickets* See how she responds.

As always, it is up to you. Nobody can make you do something you don't want to do. Just make sure that you do not lie to yourself about why you are taking the actions you choose.

^^^ This. Sir, read this again. Then read it again. I understand you're the "man in the arena". I get that concept more than words will say. But you are willfully setting yourself up for something your WW is steering you toward, and you seem to simply not wish to see that. Or maybe you do see it, and you're willing to allow it. Get off the Hopium, Sir, and take steps to protect yourself.

Bahama, you are right. It is to soon to make a decision at this point. Is your WW manipulating you. You would be the best judge of that. I have been reading here for a few years now. There is a faction here that believes the only way out is D immediately and if you don't listen to them they start demeaning you. Ignore them. You know in your heart what you need to do to get yourself through this. You know what actions you can live with. Follow your gut. Its always amazed me how on SI they preach follow your gut, but when it is not in agreement with their opinion (and that is all it is, another opinion) then your gut is all of a sudden wrong.

There is no rush. Take your time, its only been a couple weeks. You are still in the middle of an emotional roller coaster this is not the time to make life changing decisions. Wait for your emotions to settle and then make a decision based on what you want to do. Don't be pushed into making a decision that you are not ready to make.

I personally think you are doing great. This is hell you are going through and you need to get yourself through it at your own pace. Read the advice given here, most of it is great advice. You need to be aware of what is going on around you. Its important to question her responses. Don't trust right away, you may or may not be being manipulated, but with the little bit of your life you share on SI, you are the only one who see's it all so you are the one who in the end needs to decide what is right for you.. Be patient, the time for decisions is up to you.. Don't be pushed into something you personally are not ready for... Its ok to give her time to come around. You really don't have to make a decision today, or tomorrow, or next week, or even next month.. It's up to you to decide what timeline you want to work on..

Hang in there and don't be pushed into something you aren't ready to do.

Bahama:

Look at the statement in my signature. Make it your mantra.

If you evaluate all of your WW's actions through the prism of that statement, it makes it very hard for her to manipulate you.

Never forget your worth.

I'm not going to drag her towards R, she still has to get there. I'm just going to give her some time and a chance. Let's see what happens.

That's fine, there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking some time and seeing how it all plays out. She is going to IC and maybe she will gain some insight, although as others have pointed out there are a number of red flags waving wildly in the air here. From what you have written, it seems like there's a couple of possibilities present:

1. She's done with you, but just can't bring herself to admit it. The call about getting another dog, and her general lack of empathy to your situation / sending you job postings show a lack of genuine care towards you.

2. She's suffering from bi-polar or possibly borderline personality disorder. If this is the case, don't expect to get much help from her mental healthcare provider(s). Most counselors are woefully unprepared to deal with people like that unless they specialize in it, and even then there is very little they can actually do.

Based on what I have read here, there's special problems present when the husband stays home with the kids. We all like to think we are enlightened, and that fathers can be stay at home parents just as well as mothers can. And they can. But women seem to lose respect for those who do so, even if it is the woman who suggests it.

Why this is the case is probably multi-factored, but most people have no problem suggesting to a working women that her husband has it easy taking care of the home/household/children and she is being taken advantage of. The same people would never think of suggesting to a working man that his wife was a freeloader for doing the same thing. Add in a bad day for the working woman, maybe she has to miss an event for the children due to work or she just has a stressful job combined with men letting her know they would never make her shoulder the burden alone of being the working parent, and suddenly the idea of her husband taking care of things at home while she works is no longer a practical solution to a problem but a burden "you" have forced upon her.

Going forward, whether you stay together or not, you're going to need to start addressing that problem. Clearly you staying home and not working is not going to work for the two of you going forward, so you might as well start thinking about what you are going to do to bring in an income.