SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It’s obvious your wife had serious mental issues. Normal people don’t do what she did.

This reasoning is used by some in criminal cases. The events were so horrible that the defendant must be not guilty by reason of insanity.

People that rob banks can be very logical and rational. It’s exciting, the money is good and they don’t think that they will ever be caught.

As long as they get away with it they will be congratulating themselves on making such a good decision.

Once they are caught and facing decades in prison everything changes. They sincerely regret their actions. They wish that they could go back in time and never rob banks. They will do anything make the judge happy and get a lighter sentence.

Reading through this thread again, I think every therapist should have to read through this before suggesting that their patients hold on to information like this.

The sense of loss here is profound.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 1:20 PM, December 15th (Friday)]

^^^^^^

The therapist gave her the tools to take this to her grave..."bearing the burden herself". I think it is deeper than that though. We talk about her duality an the inability to reconcile both versions. My opinion is that the same wiring and compartmentalizing that allowed her to carry out her adultery is the exact same ethical wiring and compartmentalization that let her live the next nine years after the adultery ended with the death of the OM and his family. My opinion is that she took a short cut to healing, an expedient shortcut that took advantage of the same skill set that enabled her deceit. Had she been challenged to become fully transparent and authentic...who knows.

Sure, this is all speculative however it goes toward A1 trying to reconcile the two conflicting images of his W. She used the death of the OM and his family as a life changing pivot point. I just don't think that she changed as much fundamentally as she could have. She chose a path of continued deceit, equipped in part by her own wiring and the assistance of her therapist.

The therapist gave her the tools to take this to her grave..."bearing the burden herself".

A1 has her word for that so who really knows. It may have been that the therapist was helping her put it all together to confess with.

There's no duality.

She wanted om until he was no longer availabe. Now she wants bh.

Bottomline: She came first.

So y’all are all saying she had NEVER attempted redemption?

But we don’t know because A1 is being advised to end his marriage with his wife without any discussion.

And yes anyone who has a 9 yr affair in the church basement has mental issues. Which is why she was in therapy for years.

This business about in love with the other man is bull-Cockery. When women are in love...they want to be with that person and make a life.

His wife had a very different state of mind then vs now. She isn’t crying because she got caught. She is crying because she knows the hurt. She can see it on her husband and in her daughters.

But again...burn her at the stake. A1 has your wife shown evil in 10 years?

Hmm, please explain to me how suggesting that BSes are not obligated to R, even with a remorseful WSes, is equivalent to, “Burn the witch!!!”

A1 was actively and inactively betrayed for roughly 18 years. That’s a long, long time and includes many opportunities for his WW to do the right thing, and she chose not to. Based on WW’s story that is due to her therapist’s guidance, but let’s be candid, she hardly has a great track record with regard to honesty... but she does have an 8+ year track record for being self serving. So was her omission really about bearing the burden or protecting herself. Based on past behavior, I’d lean toward the latter if pressed for an opinion.

All that said, if A1 could somehow make peace with those facts and offer his WW R, I’d say more power to him. It would be one of the most Christ-like acts I’ve ever seen.

So y’all are all saying she had NEVER attempted redemption?

I think she did. I'm just not certain that I believe the therapist told her to keep it secret. I actually think that if A1 wants to offer Reconciliation that it is possible. It sounds like his WW has done a lot of the "work" that people want around here minus a big thing. Telling A1 why she was rededicating herself to the marriage. That is of course a big one but I'm not dismissing that she did the work. I think if I were A1 I would proceed on trying to find out if this was the only time she was unfaithful and if I felt reasonably sure of that then I would read the packet.

That's going to be painful but what it sounds like he'll find there are some of the reasons why. How she felt about the OM, how she felt about him. I would discount some of the things she said at the time of the A about A1. One of the the things we all saw during the A is that our WS would go out of their way to disparage us. It helped them justify in their mind what they were doing. So I don't believe that she thought all of those things she said in emails during the A. What she wrote during her counseling after the death of the OM is the best thing he has to get her state of mind then. Asking now is likely not going to get an honest answer.

Again, I believe Reconciliation is possible in most circumstances if the BS wants to offer it. In this case, if A1 can get over the length of the A, then he has some advantages presuming that his WW has had no other Affairs because she has a history now of being faithful and it is impossible for her to go back to the OM. Did she love the OM? Would she still be with him? Would she have left A1 for him? Who knows? None of us do and ever will and frankly how she felt then doesn't really matter now. How does A1 feel about her now, how does she feel about him now, how safe has she been since then, how safe will she be going forward? These seem much more important to me.

We talk about her duality an the inability to reconcile both versions. My opinion is that the same wiring and compartmentalizing that allowed her to carry out her adultery is the exact same ethical wiring and compartmentalization that let her live the next nine years after the adultery ended with the death of the OM and his family. My opinion is that she took a short cut to healing, an expedient shortcut that took advantage of the same skill set that enabled her deceit. Had she been challenged to become fully transparent and authentic...who knows.

Sure, this is all speculative however it goes toward A1 trying to reconcile the two conflicting images of his W. She used the death of the OM and his family as a life changing pivot point. I just don't think that she changed as much fundamentally as she could have. She chose a path of continued deceit, equipped in part by her own wiring and the assistance of her therapist.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Excellent stuff, TimelessLoss. This actually takes the theorising forwards, using accepted psychological theory, and avoiding excursions into the realms of demonic possession, an evil identical twin, chronic sleepwalking, amnesia, multiple personality disorder, or alien abduction.

The fact is, people can do some truly terrible things to each other, and then go home and be nice to their kids. That is not duality; it is compartmentalisation. And that ability of human beings to have a 'work life' and a 'home life', or to change their attitude and behaviour towards to others based on religion, colour, sexuality, etc, is another manifestation of the process. These forums are full of stories of people who go to church, teach Sunday school, contribute to charity, fight injustice, care for injured animals, and yet cheat and lie repeatedly and with no guilt or conscience issues. That is not duality; it is how people are wired up.

Life would be a lot easier if every robber was a twitching, weasel-faced character who spent the majority of their time in the shadows. Or if every pedophile had horns. Or if every cheat slobbered uncontrollably, with darting, bloodshot eyes. Life isn't like that, though.

The reality of it is that very few people who commit terrible acts look capable of them, and none of them have lives that consist solely of their vices. They work, they mow their lawn, they go shopping...There may be duality in how we perceive their individual actions - 'good' or 'bad' - but there is no duality in their actual personalities. Unless they are genuinely mentally troubled, everything they do is a product of a single personality.

We may find it unsettling that a rapist might work in a soup kitchen, feeding the homeless, but there is no reason why what we could call 'good' and 'bad' cannot co-exist within an individual, each element surfacing periodically to manifest itself. That is what I perceive to have happened with the WW here. Everything she has done has been a product of different parts of her personality.

I certainly do not buy into the idea that she did not know who she was during the affair, or that she was 'someone else'. She just freed the beast within herself, and once people do that, there are no limits. And indeed, for a nine year period, her behaviour was truly atrocious. The same woman who would walk into church on a Sunday without a blush used the bedroom of the family home to make amateur porn with her affair partner, as if the seventh commandment was an optional suggestion, not a central tenet of the religion she purported to believe in. That is not duality, or insanity; it is compartmentalisation within a single individual.

It is no wonder A1 feels dazed, because there has been a lack of honesty from his wife for the past eighteen years, and possibly longer than that. There were nine years of active, aggressive betrayal, followed by nine more years of concealment. What is clear is that A1's wife has not related to him in what might be considered the 'normal' way within a marriage for almost two decades. That raises the question of 'why', and that is something that she is going to have to figure out in IC for quite a while to come. Until she has done that, she will not be ready for reconciliation, if that is even an option.

However, the bomb has now been dropped, the truth is out, and for the first time in two decades, there can actually be some honest communication, because there is no need for lies anymore. For A1, there is the struggle of having lived with an actress for two decades, and how to deal with all of the questions that have surfaced now that the masquerade is over.

Has the amount of dishonesty rendered the marriage a sham that needs to be ended, or can the revelation of the truth kick-start a new phase of the relationship? Would the future of the relationship be better served by trying to continue as man and wife, or might ending the marriage as amicably as possible and transforming into friends be a more workable way forward? If she says something now, can it be believed, or will it just be play-acting?

Does it even matter anymore? And so on. I am sure that the pros and cons will be discussed in this thread, as we do our best to help our friend A1.

However, for the moment, the number one priority has to be to focus on regaining physical health and strength. Without those being restored, it will be impossible to make a balanced decision about the future.

A1, several pages back, Bigger pointed out that you have time on your side, and it is very relevant to raise the point again now. Please concentrate on restoring your physical health, and on enjoying the visit of your daughters as much as possible. The rest of the stuff will be resolved in time, and it will be resolved in the way that you want it to be. You will undoubtedly continue to receive advice trying to influence you in one direction or the other, but you are a bright and strong person, and you will make your own decisions. We must do our best to help you reach whatever resolution you decide upon.

[This message edited by M1965 at 5:34 PM, December 15th (Friday)]

So y’all are all saying she had NEVER attempted redemption?

Sure, she did, but not of her own volition. The origin of her therapy was to help her get over her AP, not for her to redeem herself. From what I read it was her therapist that steered things to what was beneficial to the improvement in her marriage. Unfortunately, this improvement was done without A1 having any knowledge of it. He was entitled to that.

Sanibel, I am not referring to responses based on what we know. I am talking about the she went to the grave. She loved the other man, she used her husband for the past 10 years. All of the assumptions. None of us knows. There are only two people who know. A1 and his wife.

Every single person on this website knows this. To keep an affair active you must justify what you are doing. And that means keeping the hate for the spouse which is what she wrongly did. She came to realize this.

We can all come on this thread. Cheer him on for cutting his wife out of his life. But eventually, this thread will die out. And A1 will be at home to deal with whatever decision he makes. We will not be at his side. I support him in R and in D. What I don’t support is urging him to turn his back and say. SIL, wife is your problem. His wife is not an active wayward trying to extort or use him. If A1 was just a way of life for her...he would not have felt love for the past 10 years. And divorce doesn’t necessarily bring healing either.

He is berating himself because he didn’t know about the affair. He didn’t know because she got therapy. Okay, so let’s now say her lover died...yes and so did his little boy. It doesn’t matter. What matters is she acknowledges the wrong.

A1 doesn’t owe her R. I do agree. Reconciliation is hard. However, speaking about the marriage in this case is warranted.

Encouraging rejection doesn’t bring power. It brings more hurt.

And I would feel very differently, if she was flaunting an affair or breaking NC.

His opening paragraph is that they have been happy. This happy part of the marriage will need closure.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 5:35 PM, December 15th (Friday)]

The origin of her therapy was to help her get over her AP, not for her to redeem herself

Can you point to the quote on this? Did she actually say this. Or are we assuming? There has been so many assumptions in this thread...

Apparently, it took her a year in therapy to get over her affair. Then she began to realize what she had done to her family during those 9 years and she said she hated herself.

My assumption, which I admit is just that, is that when A1 says the therapy was to get over the affair it was because of the grief any normal human being would have after discovering the person they were in love with is suddenly killed. I'm assuming she did not go to the therapist to improve her marriage. I'm assuming she was NOT originally seeing the therapist with the intent of rectifying her marriage.

Even when assumptions are incorrect this entire site is filled with them and they are not necessarily "wrong" to engage in.

There is no denying her priorities were in the wrong order and she was extremely selfish. Such a waste.

Iwantmyglasses, I can see where you are coming from for the most part. However, I think you’re doing your own share of supposition. I’m certainly not cheering for him to D his WW. However, I certainly understand why he might D more than he might R.

I do strongly disagree that WW’s current pain is now A1’s problem. Her pain is self-inflicted and she needs to address it, not him. Think I’m being harsh? I just so happened to review DS’s profile today, and even MH, who was capable of offering R, was not capable of helping DS through her pain so soon after D-day. In that light, I think your expectation of A1 is unreasonable.

Also, whether or not she acknowledges she was wrong is a secondary issue. A1 needs to decide if he wants to try R for it to even matter. It is so obviously wrong to cheat on and deceive her husband that she gets no credit in my book for owning it.

I’m not encouraging rejection either. I’m encouraging A1 to take the path that will make him happiest. Perhaps that means he rejects her, perhaps that means she kisses his butt the rest of his life, or something else. He’s been hurt badly enough that I want any additional suffering on his part to be as limited as possible. I’m not as concerned about WW, because she’s earned a pretty healthy penance to my way of thinking.

Lastly, yes A1 was happy in his M, but under false pretenses created by his spouse for 18 years. I believe it would be difficult to ever again completely trust someone capable of such extensive and long lasting deceit. I don’t see much peace in that.

So y’all are all saying she had NEVER attempted redemption?

The problem with this is that (1) we are second-guessing the WW's motivations, and (2) whatever was done was done without honesty and transparency. And without those elements, a relationship is not being restored in a healthy way. Infidelity is an issue of dishonesty, not one of 'good' vs. 'evil', or redemption vs. damnation. And the unarguable fact is that the affair and its aftermath was hidden from A1 for the best part of two decades, so he was subjected to deception for a variety of reasons.

Now, we have to be fair and say that it would have been virtually impossible for the WW to confess what she had done, because the details are repugnant and indefensible. Any attempt at confession would have had to have been heavily redacted and minimised, which would have created a bastardised hybrid composed of truth and lies, which contradicts the principle of being honest. So the WW followed advice to not reveal all, and to try and be the supportive wife that she should have been all along.

And yes anyone who has a 9 yr affair in the church basement has mental issues. Which is why she was in therapy for years.

This is second-guessing the WW. We can guess at a multitude of issues that might have propelled her into IC, and most would probably be legitimate, but only she could confirm what they were (and she still might not be comfortable to do that if they related to unrequited feelings for the OM).

This business about in love with the other man is bull-Cockery. When women are in love...they want to be with that person and make a life.

It was a nine-year, access-all-areas, try every kink, insult-your-spouse relationship. 'Love' may not have been present in the way it might be in an 'exit' affair, but there was clearly a strong connection there, possibly even obsession, and the relationship was not ended voluntarily by either party, but because the OM was killed. Whatever emotions were motivating the WW at the time, they overrode her feelings for A1, her marriage vows, her protection of the family unit, and her religion. Perhaps it was pure lust. Whatever it was, it was highly toxic for all concerned.

His wife...isn’t crying because she got caught. She is crying because she knows the hurt. She can see it on her husband and in her daughters.

I think that is true. The whole thing is a tragedy. Two families betrayed for nine years, OM and his family wiped out, twenty years of deception for A1. Who wins? Infidelity is the gift that keeps on taking.

But again...burn her at the stake. A1 has your wife shown evil in 10 years?

To return to the start of my post, infidelity is an issue of dishonesty, not one of 'good' vs. 'evil'. I do not believe anyone is accusing WW of being a satanist or a demon, so a more relevant and productive rephrasing of the question would be, "...has your wife shown honesty in the past 10 years?"

Just as the death of the OM ended the affair, the revelation of the truth has finished the period of deception that followed the end of the affair. At long last, after nearly twenty years, honesty can re-enter the relationship, because lies are now impossible. How that will be taken forward and developed is up to A1. The relationship with his WW could continue in several forms, depending on what feels 'right' to him.

What is abundantly clear is that A1 will make his decisions in an analytical way, weighing up all of the options, and the pros and cons. Whatever happens, it will not be a witch-burning, or a rug-sweeping.

This thread is getting way off topic…

What WW is or was or what she can or cannot do isn’t the issue per se.

The issue is what AO wants to do and/or what he can do.

If he wants to reconcile then yes – his wife is probably capable of that. The FACT a wayward spouse can change is evident simply by learning about this site. This site was created by a couple that dealt with infidelity, and by default one of them was a WS. Some of the guides and moderators are former WS, some of them are BS in reconciliation AND SOME OF THEM are people that divorced. What they all have in common is that they survived infidelity.

The issue is that AO has both the option of R or D open for him because it seems clear his wife does want to reconcile. This does not necessarily mean he should or even could reconcile. It’s HIS CALL. Yes – the length of the affair and all that will and should heavily influence AO decision. But I think that if we constantly hammer on hypothetical b@llshit with no grounds or basis for then we are doing AO a great disservice simply by limiting his options to ONE.

B@llshit like the grave-fetish many seem to have, the necessity of using crude words for parts of OM anatomy or to describe the sexual aspect, the insistence WW was in heat… Why folks? Why?

I think I came up with the comparison of JFO being the ER department of SI. As first-responders we that offer advice must think like ER doctors and nurses. We don’t go around screaming at everyone that walks in the door that their wounds are the worst ever, and that we need to amputate NOW before they DIE!

If this is the ER of SI then I think some of those fresh in their dealings with infidelity need to keep in mind that sometimes the new patients should focus on their hurts before offering help to others…

There has been a very strong Burn the Witch tone on this thread. A tone that is constantly becoming more dominating here on the JFO forum and IMHO the reason we have so many coming for help that disappear after 1-2 posts. A tone that often leads to terrible advice because it tends to focus on revenge and payback rather than getting the OP out of infidelity.

I saw that Walloped (a good, sensible and logical poster hard at work at trying to reconcile) noted that he thought this thread was one of the toughest scenarios that he has read here and that he wouldn’t be capable of reconciling. It’s interesting to read Walloped original thread because on the first 15 pages he is constantly being told that HIS situation is the worst one ever seen and that there is little hope of reconciliation… What is also interesting is that some of the posters telling Walloped how hopeless his situation was/is are also prominent on THIS thread and are claiming that this is the worst situation ever and give little hope.

I encourage those that are so certain AO’s WW should be tied to a stake to go and look at the advice they have offered in the last 100 posts they have made. If they can find a ratio of at least 20% where they have given R a chance, then good. But I guess that for most the ratio will be 0.

My assumption, which I admit is just that, is that when A1 says the therapy was to get over the affair it was because of the grief any normal human being would have after discovering the person they were in love with is suddenly killed. I'm assuming she did not go to the therapist to improve her marriage. I'm assuming she was NOT originally seeing the therapist with the intent of rectifying her marriage.

If this question is material to A1, and it’s up to him if it is, my recommendation is to understand that the burden of proof is on her. If she didn’t start therapy until after her boyfriend died then that burden of proof will be a pretty significant hurdle for her to overcome.

Ok SI'ers, just how was the last 1.5 pages, focusing on the WW, NOT Ambivalent1, helpful to Ambivalent1?

So, Ambivalent1, you've read a few pages about your WW with speculation upon supposition etc, etc. Time enough for that later. Like weeks and months from now. One thing most everyone reasonable can agree on is that you need to focus on you right now. WW's sister can take care of her, not your job.

What have you eaten today? Are you getting the shakes down? Taking walks? Moderate exercise will do your body, mind and emotions a tremendous amount of good. Just get those calories in.