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She can never understand what you are going through because she isn't on the receiving end of this.

I'm glad to hear that the three of you talked about it. I expect that sort of thing will be helpful moving forward.

Christmas dinner waiting in the fridge does sound awkward. Catered meal but absentee caterer. And you didn't order it.

The lists sound similar to the exercises her therapist had her do. The thing is, those were designed to help her process. And yes, the "Empathy" one is on one level actually a selfish exercise. Perhaps it is just me but empathy actually falls short when someone tries to reduce it to words. Trying to describe or define the pain will always result in minimizing. Even if there is a good faith effort.

Peace to your family.

It's great to hear you had a good Christmas with your girls, and that the three of you could talk about it together.

The anger... I mentioned a few weeks ago that was coming up for you. WW has probably moved the timeline up a bit with her lists. It's something that lasted a long time with me. The flood of emotions will eventually crest and withdraw. Work with your counselor on this issue so that you have an emotional support structure in place 6 months to a year from now when it subsides. I did not do this and floundered a bit.

Also, the WW coming around the house doing things for you is something you should think about. Something else to bring up in IC.

[This message edited by antlered at 10:56 AM, December 25th (Monday)]

How did the letter end?

She mentioned the quality of her marriage in recent years. She hasn't been in a real marriage for nearly 20 years.

I would be angry getting a list of why you were not Plan B. It is extremely self-centered as if she were the prize. Basically what she is saying is ‘don’t worry I still have decided that I will stay with you’

It’s awful cheaterthink. I don’t think she’s playing games with you, mind you. But part of me would want to return thwtblist to her and say ‘you are now my backup plan, and here are the reasons why: 1. I deserve better’

Sharkman,

You're always on the money.

"The letter" was just words. Her actions everything.

The whole thing has been one giant farce. I hate what she did with OM and how she has hurt our DDs. I don’t see how I can ever get past this. She is worse than a complete stranger...she is a thief and a con man.

I felt the same sentiment towards my situation and my XWW.

She wanted to reconcile, do anything for a second chance, and show me she could be the wife she should have been.

Thing is, all that was an act as well and I’m glad I never attempted any sort of reconciliation as it would have been an immense waste of time that likely would have ended in her stabbing me and our sons in the back again somewhere down the road once she got comfortable enough and her addiction and internal rationalizations reared their ugly head.

Also, deep down I knew that I could just never accept such a deep betrayal of trust no matter what she did or said.

When we got married, she was there that day, with me, knowing fully well what the vows and commitment meant, looked me in the eyes, and with all free will, made the greatest and most solemn vow she could ever make to be thee one to never betray me.

And then, a few years and two children later, she betrayed the sacred trust and began treating me worse than I’ve ever been treated by anyone in my life.

And, as you have said, our marriage was nothing but a joke, a farce, and she was merely a con and a fraud.

After we divorced, you would think that she would have looked deeply within herself to figure herself out and work hard to become inwardly healthy so that she could be genuinely happy on her own.

Instead, she quickly took up with the next willing guy, who was a married man.

She is, and always will be, a great fraud and the only thing that might help her is time and old age.

Whatever you ultimately decide in the end, hold fast to your values and ideals no matter what.

Your DD’s need to see you live authentically in this way so that they never think that being being betrayed is ever acceptable or to ever accept blame for it.

Enjoy your time with them.

[This message edited by keptmyword at 12:25 PM, December 25th (Monday)]

She is, and always will be, a great fraud and the only thing that might help her is time and old age.

Based on my personal experience the people of her kind do not become wiser with age. But I do hope she will be an exception for the sake of your kids.

In any case, keptmyword, you are the major moral compass for your kids. Your wife, on the other hand, only provides a physical presence.

Please always stay strong for your kids.

When I complained to Mom, how unlucky I am not to have an honest father, my Mom said that some people may not have even a single decent parent, so I have to be grateful for what I have. I think she is right.

Some posters are so certain a WS can never make amends or change so no matter what your WW would do it would be all part of an evil master-plan for world-domination…

I think your wife is doing her best.

Your reaction is in line with the theory of the five stages of grief.

But it doesn’t really matter. Even if we could wire her up and scientifically prove she was totally 100% remorseful, repentant and redeemed then it doesn’t matter.

What matters is what YOU want.

People have divorced for less reasons you have. They have reconciled from what might be considered worse. It is totally 100% a personal choice and it’s a choice YOU are 100% entitled to make.

Get it? Am I being clear enough? You CAN divorce. You CAN reconcile. It’s YOUR CALL.

I asked some pages ago about your separation:

What was your goal with separation?

Was it the first step to divorce?

Was it to get some distance to weigh your options?

Did the separation agreement deal with things like dating and relationships and expected fidelity?

Was the separation agreement comprehensive as in outlining final financial separation?

Could it be a divorce settlement with a couple of signatures?

Your last posts make these questions more relevant:

Your wife was in your house when you passed out. She’s coming over to feed some animals.

When you go on holiday your wife is in the house stocking up the fridge.

Why does she still have access to the house? I’m thinking the separation agreement is maybe not clear enough on living arrangements? Could you legally deny her entry, for example by changing the locks? Do you have access to her present residence? Is having her around helping with getting distance?

AO – Some time ago I suggested you try wearing the idea of D or R for some time. I think it’s time for you to seriously wear the D cap. But realize the finality of divorce. It’s not an alternative to marriage or a different form of relationship. It’s the TERMINATION of a marriage. Your wife coming over to feed animals is not happening after divorce.

You wife is almost at the professional level of infidelity therapy. I think she could teach most therapists a thing or two.

Another lists why I am not Plan B (she actually called it “back up plan”). A related list enumerates all the good in our marriage since the affair ended.

AmbivalentOne

You may not be plan B. I don’t think she had a plan.

Your wife was brought up in a church and still attends. She had the time of her life sinning. It was even more fun because it was so bad. They even did it in the church basement. Then God takes away her lover and his family.

Put yourself in her position. How would you interpret that?

She then throws herself into penance and does some good things.

Penance

Does that make you plan B? I think your wife just went with the flow.

[This message edited by Michigan at 2:25 PM, December 25th (Monday)]

A1 hasn't been married in the truest sense for nearly two decades. Should he attempt to continue the relationship, he must realize he's dealing with someone he never knew--a stranger.

yes, I thought her coming around the house was a bad idea from the getgo.

I figured this was going to divorce and I was right, despite the harsh criticism that I have received here.

Look, in the end, I knew there would be an anger phase and a depression phase.

What I didn't expect was a bunch of people trying to push this guy into reconciliation when they wouldn't do so themselves under the same circumstances.

This guy is successful, he's 50 and he has tons of life left.

He needs to carve his way forward from a nightmare and I am his biggest fan in this.

He doesn't need to be coddled anymore. He hasn't needed that from the start. He's been on this. He has already laid out his path. Let's support him in that.

What his wife did was incredibly disgusting and that is putting flowers on the situation.

Deep down inside, I think she's a catch to someone else because she probably won't repeat but to A1, she is the reminder of horrible things she did and her losing him is her loss and she deserves every piece of that.

A1, keep moving forward, enjoy your daughters and friends and family and reach out to better things for the rest of your life.

You deserve the world. Grab it

A related list enumerates all the good in our marriage (what marraige? The paper one she shat upon for years?) since the affair ended (she means once her options were reduced to just you by a slick road) .

I would be angered by that letter also. What the hell? You have asked her to stay away. You even had her leave the hospital. And what does she do? She leaves an emotional time bomb waiting for you in the form of an explanation. An explanation you did not ask for. And she did it at Christmas Eve.

Some here will view it as her trying. Trying to explain herself. Trying to show remorse. Trying to have empathy. (Not her strong suit if you have to be coached into it by a therapist)

I view it as pure selfishness. Did she ask you if you wanted her input the day before Christmas? Nope.

I feel so bad for your daughters. The memories of this guys family from when they were kids must be a complete mind F. Realizing what their Mother was doing the whole time. I would guess they will be angry for quite a while.

As others have said, stay true to your values. Like you said.....She is a thief. Do not let her steal any more of your life.

Onward and upward. 2018 is going to be tough. But you can come out of it a happier man. Maybe by next Christmas you will have a newer, better woman in your life.

Ramius makes a good point about her not respecting Your request for NC. In an odd way her letter and lists end up being what would amount to a response to questions you may have asked her as part of your IC.

This is the second major holiday since your confrontation. Thanksgiving and especially Christmas are times that brings forth nostalgia and reminiscing. So she prepared Christmas dinner and wrote you a letter. This was the closest she could get to you.

I'm brought back to this:

“Bear the burden herself,” are the words she used.

I felt that this was a misguided justification for not confessing nine years ago. She may have felt guilt and shame. If so, that was certainly hers to bear alone. The phrase suggests that she was saving you pain by not confessing. But she really advantaged herself for nine years by not confessing.

And now she truly should bear the burden of the pain she caused. Your pain. Your daughters' pain. She had a nine year reprieve.

Figuratively, she was outside your house with her nosed pressed to the window glass, looking in at you and your daughters having Christmas dinner. Fully experiencing the damage she caused. But that really still is about what she has lost, her pain. Not your pain.

Your wife is just trying to get back some control over her life. She had full control over it for many years, it's tough to let it slip away and be completely at the mercy of someone else. The letter doesn't surprise me.

But any attempt to help steer the boat is going to be seen as a huge negative. Any thing she puts out (meals, letters, explanations) is going to be seen as another manipulation on top of the previous 18 year's worth, no matter how good-hearted it might be now. I completely get where you are coming from.

Sending strength!

T/J

***As a member***

I also want to point out that I haven’t made a decision to divorce

The question is how strong is it now. Because I wouldn’t even consider R unless she repeatedly proves she is 100% all in. We have one full year of state mandated separation limbo. At this point I consider myself the prize. It is difficult to even imagine the amount of work she will have to do to convince me that she is someone with whom I want to spend time. If that doesn’t require commitment, I don’t know what does.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, wouldn't it be wise to assume AO is keeping all of his options open?

T/J

AO, I'm glad to see you're taking your time.

Strength brother

A1,

Merry Christmas!

IMO as the A ended so many years ago, there is nothing left to ask your wife to work on her self. She made the work long time ago.

She seems remorsful, worry, like she understands what she did to you and your kids, but also seems like she rewrotte the past...

Not that this Matter anymore but you are / was her plan B.No WS thinks un this Matter unless thinking of leaving the BS, also I believe OM and you WW were waitnig for the kids to grow Up to D. Maybe OM dindt wanted to D, etc. You Will never know. But what you know is Joe bad she threatex you while un the A and the mourning of OM.

WS rewrite memories to justify their doings. This may be that case. I m o if OM were Alive the rewrottenn history would be the opposit making you the bad Guy. Anyhow It doesnt matteranymore . What matters id the here and now perspectiva.

As Bigger pointed out , you need to think of what you want.

Other thing, your kids were betrayed as well and are old enough to make their own desicions. At this point you should support your Kids but not interfere.

Next years you Will be able to decide what you want.mean while enjoy yourbkids and set some rules about your ww, she hadnt realized that she tainted allí previos Christmas and just did it this years.

Last thing, the las 20 years of your marriage are a lie, no way to change It. Your ww took 20 years of your life, even the last 10 years her actions may had not been out of love but guilt and shame, or even convincente. But until DDay you were able to rise good kids and saw them everyday...

Some posters are so certain a WS can never make amends or change so no matter what your WW would do it would be all part of an evil master-plan for world-domination…

I think your wife is doing her best.

Bigger,

I understand and admire your empathy and willingness to give people second chances - especially when it comes to the betrayal of trust.

I do understand as none of us are perfect or even close.

After getting caught, A1’s WW is showing some sense of remorse and compassion towards him - far more so than my XWW who was the epitome of denial, contempt, blameshifting, trickle-truth, and continued lying.

But, when exactly did this effort on A1 WW’s part begin - and more importantly, what was it within her that started this effort?

Did it begin when her internal struggle with keeping this deep betrayal a secret become too much and too painful to keep from him and their children?

Did it begin when she realized the value and absolute necessity of honesty, truth, and trust with her family?

Did it begin when her guilt during the affair became too much and she needed to end it and confess to her husband and children?

What was the great epiphany, the great realization, the “come-to-Jesus” moment that had her come to the one man, the one person she specifically vowed to never betray and bestow the truth?

Nothing.

Her also-married adultery-partner died - that is what ended the affair.

Not her conscience, not her moral compass, not her guilt, nor her compassion for her husband, her children, her adultery-partners wife, nor their children.

They all died - and with a horrific lie they never knew.

Was it then, after such a horrific tragedy, that she came forth with the truth to make effort at bringing truth to A1, her children, and their family as a whole so they could begin healing?

No.

Nine years later did she confess after the guilt tortured her at keeping such a grotesque secret from her husband and family?

No.

She got caught.

There has been no effort on her part because she has been lying for 18 years.

Has she been making an effort since the very recent D-day?

Yes, I agree with you there.

But to surmise that since the affair-ending death of her adultery-partner she has been making an “effort”, in my opinion, is false.

Effort begins only when there is truth - and truth did not originate from any acquired wisdom, morality, courage, or compassion within her.

After nine years, it’s extremely doubtful she was ever planning on telling the truth.

A1 got the truth because of his efforts alone.

I’m not attempting to convince A1 to divorce, but will share with him my experience of dealing with some one who lied profoundly and for long periods of time.

That is precisely what this forum is for - to share our experiences.

I, and many others, truly admire your input and experience here.

In this particular case though, based on my experience, if A1 decides on divorce then I’ll certainly support him with whatever relevant experience I have had in my decision to divorce.

If he decides to reconcile, I’ll support him but also tell him to proceed with great caution - based on what I have written above regarding his WW.

Apologies for the thread jack, A1.

[This message edited by keptmyword at 9:39 AM, December 26th (Tuesday)]