SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A1,

This may seem irrelevant, but do you recall any kind of spiritual re-birth after the accident: increased bible reading, heightened involvement with the church, outreach to the less fortunate, etc.?

Many of the threads in the JFO section deal with a BS whose WS is still in an affair, or is suspected of still being in an affair. In these threads usually a good percentage of the postings deal with getting the BS out of infidelity. Then there are the ones where the BS finds out about an affair that has ended, sometimes long ago. These threads represent a minority (my opinion), but when they occur (like this one) the posters are quick to give their opinion on whether to D or R with a lot of vocal posters in the D camp. If the betrayal seems brutal enough you will have some very angry, triggered posters who really give their strong opinion as to why they would D. That will always happen. No words typed on these threads will change that.

Yet a lot of wise people, in my opinion, correctly keep reminding A1 that he has the luxury of time. A1 has more time to think/decide/act than most BS in the JFO section. I hope he uses that time wisely like he has so far.

A1

But after reading HofP's post, I realize that I am constantly making assumptions about people around me every day. I can't get in their heads, so I have no real idea what they are thinking or how they feel. It sounds stupid, but that was kind of a revelation to me.

Indeed. If you really, truly absorb it, it leaves you changed.

I know nothing about huge parts of my WW's life because so much is confined to the inside of her head. As you said, her affair was an enormous part of her life for close to a decade and I had no idea. During that time, the guy in the office next to me at work was probably less of a stranger than she was.

That way of thinking makes me wonder if a committed, romantic (ie, married) relationship is really viable for me. Knowing so little about the person you are supposed to be closest to kind of freaks me out.

My wife's parents were married for 60-some years before her dad passed away. Total peas in a pod. Agreed on everything. Did everything together. Joined at the hip.

After he passed, she made so many changes in so many ways that my wife and her siblings remarked on they never knew she had these interests and didn't like that, or thought this way or the other. Meanwhile, I thought "Umm, hmmm."

It is what it is, this ultimately uncrossable void. But that's OK. It is just how the universe we live in works. I wish I could know my wife's thoughts, I also wish I could use telekinesis on the TV remote and not have to move from the couch to get it. Nope to both.

But once you know you can't automatically know them, that what you think you know if an awful lot of your own assumptions imposed on her, then you can be open to actually seeing what is going on.

Also once you know it can't be crossed, the frustration of trying to cross it can leave you. You can enjoy the fact that this person next to you is an ultimately unsolvable mystery, that the moment you think you've got it figured out, you know you're wrong. That they have a universe in their head as complex as yours, but different. They're never boring.

Here's the kicker. When you come to realize this in its full depth, you want to be with someone else who also realizes it. At least I did. Most people are blind to it, treading water in the shallow end of the pool.

Again, this knowledge can be a gift. There is a beauty in the truth.

You got dropped into literally a life threatening situation. Here are the 12 keys to survival, for you and all of the quiet background readers in similar situations following this thread (and I know there are many). Copied from my profile.

******

No story, just wanted folks to see this.

I read the book "Deep Survival" some years ago, where it talked about how people survive catastrophes like plane crashes or getting lost. I immediately saw the parallels to discovering infidelity, where you find yourself instantly lost in a hostile emotional landscape every bit as stressful (though maybe not quite as life-threatening) as getting dropped into a jungle. So here's the 12 points, and they are generally valid:

http://www.securitywhip.com/2010/07/18/the-12-rules-of-survival/

1. Perceive and Believe

Don’t fall into the deadly trap of denial or of immobilizing fear. Admit it: You’re really in trouble and you’re going to have to get yourself out.

2. Stay Calm – Use Your Anger

In the initial crisis, survivors are not ruled by fear; instead, they make use of it. Their fear often feels like (and turns into) anger, which motivates them and makes them feel sharper.

3. Think, Analyze, and Plan

Survivors quickly organize, set up routines, and institute discipline.

4. Take Correct, Decisive Action

Survivors are willing to take risks to save themselves and others. But they are simultaneously bold and cautious in what they will do.

5. Celebrate your success

Survivors take great joy from even their smallest successes. This helps keep motivation high and prevents a lethal plunge into hopelessness. It also provides relief from the unspeakable strain of a life-threatening situation.

6. Be a Rescuer, Not a Victim

Survivors are always doing what they do for someone else, even if that someone is thousands of miles away. There are numerous strategies for doing this.

7. Enjoy the Survival Journey

It may seem counterintuitive, but even in the worst circumstances, survivors find something to enjoy, some way to play and laugh.

8. See the Beauty

Survivors are attuned to the wonder of their world, especially in the face of mortal danger. The appreciation of beauty, the feeling of awe, opens the senses to the environment.

9. Believe That You Will Succeed

It is at this point, following what I call “the vision,” that the survivor’s will to live becomes firmly fixed.

10. Surrender

Yes you might die. In fact, you will die — we all do. But perhaps it doesn’t have to be today. Don’t let it worry you. Forget about rescue. Everything you need is inside you already.

11. Do Whatever Is Necessary

Survivors have a reason to live and are willing to bet everything on themselves. They have what psychologists call meta-knowledge: They know their abilities and do not over or underestimate them. They believe that anything is possible and act accordingly.

12. Never Give Up

Survivors are not easily discouraged by setbacks. They accept that the environment is constantly changing and know that they must adapt. When they fall, they pick themselves up and start the entire process over again, breaking it down into manageable bits.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 8:38 AM, December 16th (Saturday)]

I read some more of the posts, I look forward to hear any of A1's updates and hope he is enjoying the Holidays with his children.

But I do agree about the "witchhunt" from Bigger in this specific case. I used to post here quite regularly and would usually be more of the aggressive "dump her" crowd but there are WW/H that truly put in the work. A1's has and yes we are speculating but also hopefully providing balance for A1 to decide the path he takes to his next destination.

I am truly impressed with her remorse vs others, maybe i am wrong in my opinion but so many times WW are down right mean compounded with gas-lighting, denial, and or are so overt about their infidelity.

I am also a fan of spaceghost's definitive approach because so many BS are stuck or in denial which is also understandable and I understand his opinion on this thread as well, as A1's WW is one of the most difficult i have ever read.

But to balance that....

I think if her therapist suggested to confess she would have... but again it is speculation, but i go off of how A1 wrote in how she divulged everything as if she was prepared to look in the mirror and face the consequences... vs other WW who would try some BS story to escape it... or those that simply regret getting caught and show hysteria in terms of trying to hold on to "normal"

Again, as Bigger said though this is about A1, i only offer my opinion in hopes of showing all options and perhaps that she is much farther along than others which affords A1 more of those options for his decision.

Has she earned anything? That is not up to us, that is up to A1. However, she is one of the very few i will ever say this about in terms of remorse as in how so many never do.

I wish A1 all of the best and a wonderful holiday season as best as can be.

[This message edited by atreides at 11:01 AM, December 16th (Saturday)]

I agree with atreides.

Ok SI'ers, just how was the last 1.5 pages, focusing on the WW, NOT Ambivalent1, helpful to Ambivalent1?

Well, if we now have to justify our posts and opinions, and explain the reason for them, then I will re-iterate a point that I made which I think is hugely significant to both AmbivalentOne and his WW, and it is something that no-one else seemed to have picked up on:

"...the bomb has now been dropped, the truth is out, and for the first time in two decades, there can actually be some honest communication, because there is no need for lies anymore. For A1, there is the struggle of having lived with an actress for two decades, and how to deal with all of the questions that have surfaced now that the masquerade is over."

One more time for luck, just so this does not slip by:

The affair had blocked honest communication between this couple for eighteen years, which is pretty significant. It meant that the WW had to live a lie, haunted by the past. It meant that A1 was living in ignorance of something that occurred for a significant portion of his marriage, and which will have affected his partner's life on a daily basis.

And now, finally, incredibly, there is an opportunity for A1 and his wife to start connecting on a basis of honesty for the first time in almost twenty years, if they reach a point where they want to do that. The discovery of the evidence has been enormously traumatic for both of the people concerned, plus their daughters, and right now, the focus has to be on everyone's mental and physical well-being. This is a journey, and it has to be taken stage by stage.

However, if A1 and his wife do reach a point of wanting to discuss what happened in their marriage over the past two decades, they will be able to do it without anything airbrushed out, and with all their cards on the table. Does that make it any easier? Probably not; but whatever the future holds for them, and whatever form they choose for their future relationship, whether as a married couple, or as friends, or even if they part, it will be the product of a level of honesty between them that has not existed for eighteen years. And it is the arrival of that level of honesty, that 'window of truth', for the first time in so long that has so much potential to support the discussions that are bound to occur in 2018.

Although the disclosure of 'everything' has been hard on all concerned, there is a positive side to it, because it has removed the need for any further lies. Whatever is agreed between A1 and his WW, it will be agreed on a basis of truth, and that cannot be a bad thing, regardless of what the final outcome is.

A1 take a big breath. Please take care of yourself. Drink those tofu smoothies and enjoy spending time with your girls.

Your wife has known the truth of your marriage for a long time but this is all new to you. There is no hurry. You have time. Give yourself time to process what has happened.

You and you alone get to decide if you want to give your wife the gift of s second chance or if her affair was a deal breaker to you.

That is your choice. Either way it will be tough. There will be sadness and tough times. Neither choice is wrong and you have your SI family to support you in whatever you chose when you have rested up, taken stock of the situation and are ready.

[This message edited by HardyRose at 7:58 PM, December 16th (Saturday)]

Where is the like button for M165's post?

I don't believe we could speculate any more that A1 has been speculating. He asked for help with questions for his W. The term "speculating" in this thread has become pejorative.

It is, IMO, appropriate to speculate (but substitute "wonder" if it helps) whether his W visited the grave, placed flowers. Because it goes to her state of mind. M1965's point is that if A1 questions his W about this there can be a conversation so he can discern her state of mind. It could be that she pines for the OM, or that it is an expression of deep guilt and remorse about her actions.

I wonder what A1 thinks of this tit for tat back and forth. It was asked before about what good certain posts offer A1/Mrs A1. I'll ask the same question: what good does it do A1 to call posters a "BTB Crowd/Camp"? Isn't that a generalization about those who criticize his W's actions and advise D? Using BTB instead of Burn the Bitch isn't any less calling out a whole group of people. It characterizes a whole group of people as advising A1 to rage and seek revenge. 'Cause that's what Burn the Bitch means.

WOW!

Just read through this in one sitting.

BS here. I just have a few things to say.

AO, I would like to tell you how sorry I am that you are in this situation. And to set things straight about how I feel from the start....."Shame on her!" And that is an extreme understatement.

I respect every poster on this site. It continues to amaze me how people take time to help each other. But while i was reading, I felt that at times, this thread has seemed more like a competition to give the best advice. I mean no disrespect to anyone. If I was AO, I think my head would be spinning. He seems to be much better to assimilate the posts than I would be in his position.

AO, I have no opinion about whether you should R or D. I feel that either path has justification. It was a loooong period of infidelity, and the fact that the A ended with his death puts you in the position to wonder if he had not died, would they still be "together". Also, it is always better when a WS confesses rather than getting "caught". That's a lot to wrap your head around for R.

On the other hand, she obviously has remorse. SHE is a candidate for R in my opinion. If you are not, which it sounds like you may not be, based on some of your comments, that is certainly your decision, and no one should fault you for that.

But I, too, believe this woman has been made out to be the worst case scenario kind of WS, and I couldn't disagree more.

She has addressed her actions with therapy on her own.

She put great effort into improving the marriage.

She has shown concern for you during your conversations.

She has answered your questions honestly. No TT.

She has taken full responsibility for her actions.

She has agreed to move out to give you space.

She is at least trying to give you the NC you have asked for.

She is still helping with the animals and housecleaning.

She has agreed to the legal paperwork you have asked for.

She was devastated and took COMPLETE responsibility for your accident, and didn't leave your side. (I understand that this wasn't necessarily your preference, and you were very kind to allow her that.) but it shows her concern and remorse.

As I said, you seem to be headed toward D in your head at this time, and that is something I can understand considering the length of her affair.

I guess I just want you to know that my H cheated briefly almost 12 years ago, and I would give everything I own if he had shown 1% of the remorse your wife is showing.

I agree with what Bigger said about taking advantage of the time you have. Your hurt is so fresh. If you do that, and not react impulsively, whatever you decide will more than likely be what is best for you.

Again, I meant no disrespect to other posters. I just feel it would be more helpful to AO if comments were directed to him and his situation rather than focusing on the differing opinions.

As I understand, all input is welcome here.

Hey there A1. I hope the tofu is helping. Having had electrolyte issues before and I can say that dill pickles are a good idea. The sodium helps.

Just a thought. Since you have a year of Seperation ahead of you, at times you might feel stuck in a bit of limbo. D or R? What do they look like? All that sort of thing. You may feel like there is nothing you can do but sit with your feelings. It may seem there are no concrete actions you can make for a while.

With that in mind I was reading thru your thread and something jumped out at me.

This....

That winter, her girlfriends of the time (who were in on and encouraged the affair) conspired to plan a “Girl’s Weekend” in NYC to cover a romantic vacation for her and OM. That is when the first 2 photos were taken. They did a few more of these out of town trips, always billed as a “Girl’s Weekend.

”

Not to add more to your plate. But in the coming months (not anytime soon) and only If you feel so inclined.......

you might want to track down these fine ladies husbands and let them know about their wives facilitating an affair. I sure as hell would want to know if my wife did this. Perhaps they have had their own trists and the husbands are in the dark.

It could give you a sense of accomplishment. Righting a small bit of the wrong done to you.

And if you think this suggestion is daft, just disregard.

Stay strong. Get your rest. And enjoy your daughters company.

[This message edited by ramius at 4:45 AM, December 17th (Sunday)]

First, I want to thank everyone for their incredibly thoughtful replies. It is amazing to imagine how much time and effort people put into such insightful and inspirational posts. I feel much less alone in this situation than I might otherwise thanks to the members of SI.

DDs made it home safely. I spent some of Friday cleaning the house. I was surprised how difficult it was to scrub blood off of the hallway baseboards. It is great just having them around. Makes things seem much more normal. They were both surprised by the remodeling work but seemed to approve. As far as I know, neither knows the icky details of what WW did with OM in the old master.

Of course I had to tell them about my tumble. Unfortunately, it seemed to make both of them angrier with their mother. But I am starting to feel like their relationship with WW is not my problem anymore. Anyway, I welcome their concern and support. I am a little afraid they are going to put me on lockdown and not let me leave the house though.

Don’t have much time to write this morning. We are heading to church a little later. I just wanted everyone to know that I am reading your incredible posts and I greatly appreciate them.

As far as I know, neither knows the icky details of what WW did with OM in the old master.

They were both surprised by the remodeling.

I would assume that they know why you’re remodeling. i.e. something happened with the OM in the old master.

[This message edited by Michigan at 9:34 AM, December 17th (Sunday)]

Just have a Merry Christmas with your daughters.

Put everything else on hold and enjoy your time together.

Take care

A1,

Happy that you have handled and continue to handle this whole episode well.

IMO, you may want to consider the D route not to punish the WW but it will enable you to start on a clean slate without the baggage of a sham marriage of 18 years. After D, you will be a free man emotionally to experience love that you never had and which you deserve. You can experience this by dating your WW or someone else and finding love again....the choice is yours to choose.

You are prize and it is worth fighting for.

Wishing you a blessed Xmas and Jesus heals.

The fact that your daughters are angry at WW is a good thing IMO. It is not your job to police your relationship with Mom but their anger is justified because they got betrayed too and they are standing up for you. That is a good thing.

I agree with Whatsright. Too much competition on this thread. Move the goalposts forward.

A1, what is your gameplan for 2018 relating to this situation ?

One thing I've seen in the R world from some folks is the concern that people didn't R because they wanted to, that they did it for expediency or laziness or fear, etc. There's this lurking sense of unease and regret that hangs over the marriage.

You take care of that by taking the marriage right to the edge, by doing everything you need to do to D, all the way up to paperwork and acceptance by the WS that that is the way it is going to be. At that point all external ties are cut to the past that might be dragging you down, R or D is just as easy, and you are left with only choice. Your choice, free and clear of anything else but what you want.

This also works best for pursuing a D.

Sending strength!

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 8:42 AM, December 18th (Monday)]

House is correct. R out of laziness or fear of loss is not a good way to go. Pushing aggressively forward to D is decisive. It doesn't mean you have to D in the end though it sends the strongest of all messages that the WW behavior was unacceptable and that you are ready to pursue a productive life, even without her.

"It’s not that I didn’t care that she was upset, but it almost felt like I was watching a stranger or distant acquaintance. I felt very...detached I guess. I’m not sure how healthy that is."

Many people have the same feelings about their WS's. It's not unhealthy. They've shown you that they aren't the person that you thought they were and with that realization you find that they are a stranger. So your feelings of distance are normal and expected.

"I wonder if this whole process has broken my ability to be married to anyone, not just WW?"

No. You're not broken. There can come again a time when you meet someone and become interested in moving beyond friendship. Because you are wiser now, you'll likely handle the situation with more communication and caution, but with time the desire can and will likely return to you.

Sorry to hear you banged you head up. Hoping you're eating and feeling better, and taking care of yourself.

The difficult thing about this situation is that the WW already had done a sort of reconciliation on her own and has probably accepted her husband as the only one. The affair was over for a long time since the OM has died. she has already accepted what she had done wrong and tried to make it up being a good wife. Since it has been a decade ago she probably wouldn't think this whole affair would come above the water again. But for the betrayed spouse it is all new and fresh, like it happened yesterday. Ihave read a lot of different stories here on SI where the WS is not be remorsefull and shift the blame to the BS. In such a case a 180 is needed so the BS would recognize what they did in the end. But here the WW already came clean with herself. I as a BS would be having a difficult time with this situation. It's harder to do the 180 and NC, but on the other side i would'nt be able to handle the images and the fact that she stole a big part of the marriage and sex life of the BS.

Hi A1 (seems this is the general consensus on how to address you so I’ll go along...)

I hope you are having a great time with the DDs and you are able to lean on each other a bit for support when necessary. Doubtless the holidays can be emotional. I’m sure you’ll have some low moments, but you’ll hopefully find some high ones to modulate things relatively well.

I’ve been thinking about something in the back of my mind and I just wanted to share my thoughts on it. You probably have a plan for this, but when you started talking about the list of questions and perhaps starting to ask some of them of your WW it sparked something in my brain.

The topic is her journal. You said you haven’t looked at it yet, and put it in the safe, and that’s where it has stayed.

That’s fine. It’s probably difficult to decide if you will read it or not. But my thought is that you should probably decide before you get far down one path or another. Here’s my reasoning.

Again, no rush to decide if you want to D or R. But if you start asking questions you’ll start on the path to making that decision.

If you eventually decide to D, then it probably doesn’t matter much if you read it or not. If you are choosing D then I probably wouldn’t read it. I mean what’s the point.

The only thing I could see reading it doing would be to weaken your resolve to D. Perhaps there is something in there that really shows she came to a realization how horribly she was acting, how poisonous the A was and how much a better man you were.

If you are thinking what she did was a deal breaker no matter what, then why put yourself thru the pain of reading the journey she went through. That would only be of value if your commitment to D was wavering and you were searching for reasons to change your mind.

However if decide you want to explore The possibility of R, I suggest you make a decision on reading the journal before you start. Here is my reasoning.

It’s best to build R on a basis of complete knowledge. For me that means trying to learn and understand everything that happened. So if you are going to read the journal, do it early in the process.

It would be disastrous to start on the hard work of R, have her tell you everything she can remember about what happened back then and how she feels now, take all the difficult steps needed to make you safe again, and then get 2 years down the road where things are better and then decide to read the journal. It could set you back to a point well behind where you started. Who knows what is in there.

She could have written things even worse than were in the emails. Why waste months or years of work if you’re just going to blow it away with a big piece of the puzzle you decided not to read until later on?

If you decide you are never going to read it (not my recommendation but still a choice) and want to start the R journey, then commit to that decision. Do something with it so you are never tempted to open it up years later. Maybe give it to her IC to hold. Or perhaps destroy it together. Again, this would not be the choice I would make, but if you decide it’s not ever to be part of the basis you start R with, then make sure it does not come back to haunt you later.

A1, I might have waited til after the holidays to mention this but you started saying you might ask her some questions and I felt that you’d be doing so without the full basis of knowledge the journal would provide, and frankly, that scared me.

So my recommendation would be to hold off on starting to explore the R process until you decide what part the journal will play in that journey.

It’s a document that most BSs would love to have as part of their path out of infidelity, but it can be a dangerous one.

I’m sure others here will have thoughts to add. In fact I’m counting on it.

Take care and enjoy the time with the DDs. Ours arrive tomorrow. We’re really Looking forward to it.

Take care