SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Something tells me that the last 8 years was simply 'preservation' mode and trying to avoid further loss.

Something tells me that she had the liquid shit wiped from her eyes and saw the horror of her behavior in full perspective and resolved to change and be thankful for what she has. Which is not incompatible with what you wrote.

I see her as living proof that WS can change. She is a great partner now, today, this moment. This fact strips away so many of the bases of action for responding to infidelity, which revolve around past actions predicting future performance. She has 9 years of predicting future performance that suggest it would be just fine.

Which leaves...still leaves so much.

There is absolutely nothing the WS can do about the "so much" either. Can't undo what was done. That burden is now on A1 and the children, to sort out any kind of relationship to this person central to their lives.

Big sigh, A1. Thinking of you and your family. Sending strength!

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 9:25 AM, December 28th (Thursday)]

"I see her as living proof that WS can change."

how? she was still lying.

How are you doing AmbivalentOne? I read through this thread - wow what a story. I'm not sure I have any advice for you except to say that the engineer in you definitely engages in logic first (I come from a family of engineers AND live with one, worked in the technology field for decades with engineers...) and that's great. I hope you take care of your emotional side too and are sure to allow the feelings to move through your body. Do this by acknowledging them, identifying them (rather than anger, get down to feelings of humiliation as an example) and process them so they don't hold onto you but you manage them.

Know that processing this trauma has its stages and you will go through all of them eventually. Best to not be stuck in any one of them.

At over a year out now I can say that I feel a lot better (hopefully it gives you some hope) and I can actually come to JFO to see if I can be of any help to others. You've got a lot of helpful folks here already and therapists, lawyers, and great daughters who all care about your well being, supporting your needs, and listening to you. I'm so sorry this happened and know your pain as a BS.

Please continue to post. I hope you had a wonderful celebration with your children and that life with this new news is moving along as best as can be expected. In time you will find that this watershed moment provides you the ability to find more meaning in your life moving forward. It takes time to clean up the carnage particularly with children but it can be done.

I hope you take care of your emotional side too and are sure to allow the feelings to move through your body. Do this by acknowledging them, identifying them (rather than anger, get down to feelings of humiliation as an example) and process them so they don't hold onto you but you manage them.

Know that processing this trauma has its stages and you will go through all of them eventually. Best to not be stuck in any one of them.

^^Well said ISurvived!

A1 this is good advice and is better phrased than I had said earlier. IMO This likely is what caught up with you earlier what with the not eating and collapse. Someone told me when I was about at the point you are now to "Feel your feelings, but don't wallow". Anger is inevitable, but it helps to identify and process why you are angry. A good IC will help you with this. Please follow up on IC. After the girls leave you might understandably feel a bit (or in my case a lot ) adrift with all of this. Best to have the emotional bones "set right", you know?

[This message edited by antlered at 6:00 PM, December 28th (Thursday)]

The only othe person who kind of knows what is going inside your ww's head is her IC. Given her IC is saying that she needs empathy towards you is not a good thing. You have said her IC from years ago also her write how she would feel if you have done that to her.

Through her A she vilified you. I suspect that is still present today given what her current IC is doing. Can you talk with her IC.

Questions you should ask include things like if the affair was common knowledge or widely suspected.

Did she drop the old friends to work on the marriage or did they remind her of being him.

You did not know of the affair so more than likely you did not change much other than react to the changes in how she treated you. What I mean is how could the marriage be so good from her standpoint while being so bad before given nothing has changed.

Things may be fine now but what if something unforseen happens. Your business struggles, your health, something with the kids. Can you reply on her. Do you want her in a position where we can make life or death decisions. I know she took care of you now but what if it was long-term and impacted her life.

You say things are very good now but I that real or were you treated so bad, mediocre times feel GREAT

Hello again everyone. DDs and I had a busy week taking down decorations, playing cards/board games and talking. DD2 wouldn’t eat the food WW left, but DD1 and I saw no reason to let it go to waste (and neither of us are particularly good cooks). I gently suggested the girls consider some counseling to help them come to terms with their mothers actions. DD1 was amenable but DD2 said WW’s horrible choices and “lousy morals” were not her problem. I am worried DD2 may entirely shut WW out of her life.

Bigger reasked some questions a few pages ago:

I asked some pages ago about your separation:

What was your goal with separation?

Was it the first step to some distance to weigh your options?

Was the separation agreement comprehensive as in outlining final financial separation?

Could it be a divorce settlement with a couple of signatures?

My goal was to get away from her. Being around her elicits far too many unpleasant feelings: nausea, sadness, humiliation, and, most recently, anger. I have to remain a functional human being and I believe that would be impossible if I still lived with her.

I began weighing options shortly after finding the computer evidence, even before confronting her. And I haven’t stopped.

Yes, the separation agreement is comprehensive and includes detailed separation of property/finances. I am waiting on the New Year to have my lawyer and CPA enact the agreement. Untangling assets and reassigning property will be a long, paperwork filled process that I did not want to start right before the holidays with my daughters on their way home.

And yes, in my state the separation agreement typically serves as the divorce settlement (if the couple decides to divorce at the end of the one year separation).

I agree with many people who suggest that WW has done a great deal of work improving herself. And that she is, at least in part, remorseful. I definitely don’t think she will ever cheat on anyone again. She may even be the best reconciliation candidate ever. But I’m not sure if those things really matter to me. The pain and humiliation will always be there. I have been reading some threads in the reconciliation forum that are not encouraging. BSs who are 5, 10 and even 20 years out who still think about the betrayal daily. I feel terrible for the people in that forum because so many seem so very miserable. Strangely, the discussion in the divorce forum seems more positive.

Sadly, I do still love her as much as ever. She was my first everything and has been a part of my life for what seems like forever. She was and is the most beautiful woman I have ever met, the only person I have ever had sex with and the mother of my two wonderful daughters. The last 6 or 7 years with her have easily been the best of my life. We have shared so many important events together. And we had so many exciting plans for the future. But I don’t think any of those things will be enough for me forgive her. I just don’t think my stupid male ego will let me get beyond this.

I have read in several threads that you shouldn’t make any major decisions in the first 3-6 months, so I won’t.

Well planned.

I just don’t think my stupid male ego will let me get beyond this.

Don't go there. Do not blame yourself in any way for her horrid behaviour. Do not blame your ego for not wanting to stay with a cheater.

It's not about ego. Ego is used as a shaming tactic. A way to blame the BS for not "getting over it" the shaming may come from other, or ourselves, but it does not make it true.

I have been reading some threads in the reconciliation forum that are not encouraging. BSs who are 5, 10 and even 20 years out who still think about the betrayal daily. I feel terrible for the people in that forum because so many seem so very miserable. Strangely, the discussion in the divorce forum seems more positive.

I was thinking about this the other day. I have quite a few business clients who are Jewish. Some have become friends. I have had the honor of meeting their parents who survived the holocaust. Amazing discussions. I asked one of them what made him leave Europe and come to America. The man basically said, in order to maintain his sanity, he could not stay where it had all happened. He did not want to see daily reminders of the horror and loss. From the bakery his friend owned before the war. To the park where they were forced to assemble before being sent away.

Perhaps this type of dynamic is one reason why the divorce section is more positive than the reconciliation section. They are moving on. Moving away from the perpetrator. It's hard to recover if you live next to Auschwitz.

I hope you and your daughters have a great new years. Keep up with the tofu.

You seem to have a very level head with all that has happened to you.

So sorry for the horror you are facing.

Hope you get some peace someday.

Have you read her papers from her "therapy" after OM died?

I just don’t think my stupid male ego will let me get beyond this.

Ain't it the truth.

It is kind of fascinating how much effort we put into building memories and creating a narrative, how important our past is to the present. Like it isn't all erased when we slip our mortal coil. An affair blows up that memory and destroys that narrative. The more attached to the story, the more the pain. It can be absolutely wrenching.

And how much we do in defense of our Self, ego, etc. A lot of marriages involve picking a partner who says something about you, the extreme being the proverbial trophy wife. The flip side is the belief that their actions also say something about you and are interpreted as an attack on Who You Are, again, the self and the ego. This is deep, deep stuff.

It is kind of mind-blowing that a Roman Emperor from 180 AD has something useful to say about coping with infidelity in 2017, but if you haven't read any of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, I promise you it will resonate, and maybe provide solace. Some of this stuff is timeless.

I've linked to this before...wiki page with example quotes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations

The free book

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680

“It is not the actions of others which trouble us (for those actions are controlled by their governing part), but rather it is our own judgments. Therefore remove those judgments and resolve to let go of your anger, and it will already be gone. How do you let go? By realizing that such actions are not shameful to you.”

― Marcus Aurelius

I have been reading some threads in the reconciliation forum that are not encouraging. BSs who are 5, 10 and even 20 years out who still think about the betrayal daily. I feel terrible for the people in that forum because so many seem so very miserable. Strangely, the discussion in the divorce forum seems more positive.

I've been struck by this, too. It's really hard to miss.

By the time you are 6 months out, or a year like I am, you may well be a completely different person like I have been. But more importantly, the initial shock and grief phase will have passed, and you can make a less emotional decision, but one that still follows your heart.

the discussion in the divorce forum seems more positive

I've never seen a post by a BH who regretted divorcing his cheating wife.

A1,

Those three to six months are vital.

A: you never can predict what will happen.

B: you will suffer from ‘what if-itis’ after D and by giving a set period of time (3 to 6 sounds good) it’ll mitigate that.

Mind you I’m not suggesting being indecisive. You can still proceed with D, but just know there is some work to do before that final paper gets signed. In your case you can’t do it for a year anyhow so I’m preaching to the choir on this one.

She may even be the best reconciliation candidate ever.

And she probably is, but that does not mean that you should or should not R. Being a good candidate is not always enough.

I was single for many, many years (decades). I had casual dates with male friends but no real relationships.

But for some reason about a decade ago I guess I was just ready. I had 4 very, very eligible marriage partners show up in my life. Yes really even an old lady like me.

One was a prominent attorney, one was a professor at a medical school, one was a banker,and one was a retired IBM exec. All were very nice, kind, respectful, and respectable.

All were good candidates for marriage. But that didn't mean I had to marry anyone no matter how good of a candidate they were.

Shortly after that I met my current non-cheating DH and life has been good with him.

It will all work out in the end. Whatever the end is.

First of all, I know I'm a newby, but I have been lurking for awhile and have followed this thread since the beginning. You have handled this situation like a fucking champ! However, I was beginning to grow concerned for how stoic you seemed to be. I'm glad to see you opening up about your feelings. Feel the anger. This is also the first time you've really said anything positive about your WW. Allow those feelings, too. Of course part of you still loves her. Of course she's the most beautiful woman you've ever seen! She's been your one and only since you were very young! This is good... this is progress! Continue with IC, you're doing great!

I am of the opinion your WW seems like an ideal candidate for R. It was certainly wrong of her to keep the affair from you for this past decade after it ended, but I truly do believe she re-committed herself to you and wanted to spare you a great deal of pain and suffering. But I'm confident that if you had never found out about the affair, you two would've had a long and fantastic marriage from here on out. That's the bitch of it; you could STILL have that. If you could find it in yourself to forgive your WW, and truly R with her, I think she would stop at nothing to make you the happiest man alive for the rest of your life. She seems like she would be happy to spend her whole life making it up to you, and you could have a wife/marriage that most of us here only dream about. You could still fulfill all your hopes and dreams for the future, become Grandparents together, etc. It's still possible, but damn... that's a HUGE pill to swallow.

That pesky male ego, eh? I know about it all too well. You are completely justified in having your ego shattered. Something to remember is that if you decide to D, when/if you choose to start dating again, you will likely find yourself to be a hot commodity. You are now the "total package", so to speak. There are countless single/divorced women around your age that would love to land a man just like you.

Another reason your ego is shattered is the terrible things your WW wrote about you. I think that's all a bunch of bullshit, something APs say to one another to keep the fantasy and the thrill going. I strongly doubt your WW thought you were ugly. Maybe his penis was bigger, maybe it wasn't... irrelevant. Bad in bed? Not buying it. Good sex takes 2 people, and if one person has checked out of the relationship, the sex will never be good. If she wanted to do something different in the bedroom, she could've discussed it with you. You were a young man in your prime at the time the affair began, I'm sure you would've been up to the task. But she didn't discuss it with you... so if she didn't enjoy the sex, that's on her, not you.

Sorry, I tend to go on and on. My final thought is that perhaps after the holidays are over, and your DDs are back at school, maybe you should discuss your feelings with your WW. You've listened to her, read her letters, watched her ball her eyes out while she incoherently rambles. I think it's time that she sits back and listens to you. Ask her how she expects you to ever get past this? Ask how she expects you to ever be able to make love to her again? Tell her you still love her, and how you mourn the loss of the future that you'll never have together. I know you want to maintain NC, and that's fine, but at some point I think it would be beneficial for you to tell her everything that you think. Also, read the letter in your safe from her first round of therapy. I know it'll be hard, but I don't think you should make up your mind to R or D until you have examined all the evidence.

Enjoy the rest of your DDs Christmas break, and remember that no matter what you decide to do, you need to make 2018 the year of AMBIVALENT ONE!!! Good luck, my friend.

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 7:19 PM, December 29th (Friday)]

I just want to say— I think those who feel truly reconciled aren’t posting on the R board after a couple/few years out. I’m in the midst of R and honestly, I avoid that board. So while I agree about the tone, I also wouldn’t take that as a representative sample of those who have chosen to reconcile.

Your thinking and decision making are very sound. You have expert advice from attorneys, accountants, etc. You have 2 daughters who are rightfully loyal to you and whom you will always have to cherish from your marriage.

Wherever the road ahead leads you, I wish you the best!

But I’m not sure if those things really matter to me.

But I don’t think any of those things will be enough for me forgive her. I just don’t think my stupid male ego will let me get beyond this.

As is then these two sentences are the key elements.

This is what I have been saying all the time – you have options and the option YOU choose is totally your choice. What I have been grumbling about on this thread is the number of posters that have already seen what they know is your best and only option and pretend to know your wife better than you.

You are not forced to divorce. You choose to or you don’t divorce.

You are not forced to reconcile. You choose to or you don’t reconcile.

It’s not dependent on what your wife wants (it would be if she was still in an active affair).

It’s totally dependent on what YOU want.

It simply depends on what YOU trust yourself to do and/or what you WANT to do. Right now, these two sentences above indicate you might not believe R is possible. Remember my suggestion to take R or D and wear it for a week? Well… wear D for a week.

This is not me telling you to divorce, but it is me challenging you to use the time you have wisely. No rush – but since you have time then use it to think scenarios and possibilities. Wear D for a week, then maybe take a week off and then later wear R for a week. Make a for-and-against list for both options. Put that list away and then revisit it after 2 weeks. List down your fears with both options…

As has been said numerous times; your biggest asset is time. Use it. Don’t simply let the clock tick away and think things will solve themselves.

you shouldn’t make any major decisions in the first 3-6 months

I think that adage suffers from lacking elaboration. Imagine waking up with your smoke detectors blaring and a fire in your house. if that was your first thought the house would be burned to cinders before you decide to dial 911. Infidelity is so serious that it DEMANDS action. It DEMANDS that we do all sorts of stuff simply to get out of infidelity.

However – what we do and how we do it needs to be carefully thought out and based on logic, sensibility and reality. I think you are doing all that. You have already made a lot of major decisions – formal separation, talk to attorney, finances, tell your daughters…

Definitely use the time you have for the major decision of R or D. Since you have the time then also keep in mind that this is a marathon and you should pace yourself. If you can then give yourself time where you try to focus away from your marriage and its present state.

BSs who are 5, 10 and even 20 years out who still think about the betrayal daily. I feel terrible for the people in that forum because so many seem so very miserable. Strangely, the discussion in the divorce forum seems more positive.

Deciding to reconcile is like deciding to get into shape. It’s like stopping at the gym and buying a membership card. Carrying the card won’t do you any good. Going once a week and plodding on the treadmill won’t do much good either. It’s daily challenging work and dedication and you need to put immense work into reconciliation for it to work. That work is only as good as whatever work your spouse puts into it too. I think a high number of the posts in the R forum are from people still trying to learn how the treadmill functions or wondering if they really need a gym…

There are couples here on SI that have successfully reconciled. The founders, our admin WH5 and his wife BR and more.

Divorce is a better-known process. You deal about the hard factors with an attorney or mediator that then deals with the WW or her attorney. You have distance and the process ensures a certain pace. Unlike R that is totally dependent on reaching an agreement then a judge can decide in a D.

Wear D for a week, then maybe take a week off and then later wear R for a week

Seriously? If only it were this easy for someone to wake up Monday morning and compartmentalize to this extent, and then two week later flip. I expect that A1 runs through this calculus more than a few times a day. His last post shows that he is weighing and reflecting.

I'll say straight up that I think such a concept of two weeks on/two weeks off is impossible. Perhaps A1 has the disciplined intellect that can pull it off. In the out weeks/months A1's normal thought process, whatever that may be, will lead to more and more clarity. His last posts reflects that he has distilled down a couple of salient factors already.

Ok Timeless. Then we know it’s off for you. But I’m not suggesting YOU try it since this thread is about AO and not you.

From what AO has shared his IC suggested the same exercise.

What is it you fear TL? That AO might wear R and like it?

I have been reading some threads in the reconciliation forum that are not encouraging. BSs who are 5, 10 and even 20 years out who still think about the betrayal daily. I feel terrible for the people in that forum because so many seem so very miserable. Strangely, the discussion in the divorce forum seems more positive.

I read this stuff too and I think that is not exactly accurate. There is a great restaurant in my town. People come from all over to eat there. The President ate there once. Everyday folks in private planes fly here just to eat, they are picked up at the airport and shuttled there. But if you read comments online about the place you will see that many are negative. I think happy people do not comment and soreheads leave plenty of bad comments.

My wife screwed up. I love her, but I hate what she did. I wish things that are in her past had not happened, but they did.