SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I agree with Ramius, Marz and Midnight run. I disagree with Sassy.

I think after 500 pages or whatever it is, we know what the deal was and it is the fact that A1 was a paycheck and deadboy was Plan A. Sorry but it's true.

My offer to go treat his grave with roundup is still available. However, on a more realistic point, A1 needs to move on and find true love from someone who actually loves and appreciates him for who he is. That woman is out there somewhere. His WW is not that person.

I get she fixed herself but way way too late. 9 fucking years ??? 9 ??? This sounds like an episode on Discovery "who the F did I marry ?"

A1, you know your path, you have handled this like a champ. Move forward to it.

I also agree with Sharkman !!

Isn't it possible that upon the OM and his family's death the WW was shaken to the core? Could she have come out of her fog (yeah, I get it 9 years or so is outside of the norm for limerence)? Could IC have been a place where she realized that all her justifications for having the A were BS?

Maybe she would not have left the OM, but sin has its own consequences and the universe changed circumstances on her and made her finally appreciate the man that was real and her security, her husband, so she lived for another decade working hard to make up for her prior sins. Is it possible she kept it a lie because she finally realized she had it great, and that she knew she would lose everything she finally appreciated if she told A1 what she had done?

This is a hard one A1. It appears like your WW could have woken up after the death of her AP and figured out that you really were the man she wanted, so she lived the next decade being a good wife. Maybe that is the authentic her, and the WW was the pretend her. I suppose that is what you have to figure out for yourself. Who is the real Mrs. A1?

Fog, schmog. 9 years? The W that had the A and the loyal wife after AP's death....they're both the real her.

Once again, the focus seems to be on AO’s wife.

It’s interesting to hear why so many of us could never believe or reconcile with AO’s wife. For me the simple reasons she isn’t my wife would be enough. I guess AO would have other reasons to want to R or D.

AO – I have probably said this before: people have reconciled from more, people have divorced for less. It’s totally your call. Just be aware that the worst outcome isn’t R or D – it’s limbo. It’s been suggested you use your greatest asset and that is time. That asset is not best spent by simply letting time pass (although that can be healing) but by gathering what info you need and evaluating its value. You have time to think things through.

Applying engineering logic to emotional situations… I could just as well try applying my financial know-how to calculate the depreciation value of WW emotions. Logic and thought are great and important to your healing AO, but I guess you didn’t select your wife back in the days based on some Excel-calculations. Base what you want on what you want, and what you think is attainable.

At your age, with independent grown-up children, you are in a better position than many to be totally free for either R or D. You can base the decision totally on YOUR needs.

Bigger.....Thank you for your words of wisdom.

AO - You have the strength to continue to work through this upheaval, anger and hurt. It takes a very long time so take one day at a time. Just keep on concentrating on YOU and your kids.

I guess you didn’t select your wife back in the days based on some Excel-calculations. Base what you want on what you want, and what you think is attainable.

Of course he did. Everyone does. Or atleast I did.

You use quantitative data to lessen the universe of items to analyze and once the data has been reduced as far as math will let you you then apply logic and reasoning.

AO is very wise to buy himself some time reducing the items to consider while in the vulnerable stage. Once he has come a bit further then he can apply inductive reasoning absent of emotional bias.

This is not an emotional decision to make. It’s a decision where he truly needs to understand what he needs to be happy. He’s set himself a year to make this decision, which I think is reasonable (and his local law agrees).

This is not some wife banging some rando at a bar during a conference. I don’t envy AO for having to sort through his feelings on this and I do think that is the motivation for people in this thread. There are just so many damn layers it’s quite literally staggering

There is no way I can read through 40 pages here but the fact that it has gone on for 40 pages made me curious enough to want to see the last posts to try to figure out what is happening here.

I have not really figured it out but still have a couple of comments.

Isn't it possible that upon the OM and his family's death the WW was shaken to the core? Could she have come out of her fog

I think people who get "shaken to the core" often have what looks like a change but it is temporary. For example, my DS got in a horrific accident driving a dump truck with his son with him. By looking at the truck, they both could most certainly could have died but they escaped mostly unharmed. (He has never admitted the cell phone had anything to do with it but it was well known he was always playing with the damn thing while driving so it is definitely a theory).

Do you think that stopped him from always being distracted by his cell phone while driving? Maybe for a few weeks. He is just the same as he was before, now. I could tell a hundred more stories of people who changed for a while after something dramatic or traumatic.

And here is something I fully agree with...

It’s totally your call. Just be aware that the worst outcome isn’t R or D – it’s limbo.

I often see people suggesting "don't make a decision...blah blah blah." I so disagree. Make a plan for your life and go with it. Someday you might wish you had chosen otherwise, but that is life. Doing nothing, living in limbo is barely even living.

Quantitatively, A1 is dealing with an unknown quantity--ww.

He's been in love with a stranger, a chameleon. For years he's been navigating life with a woman who wore a mask. When the disguise came off-- surprise! An alien.

[This message edited by MidnightRun at 7:16 AM, December 27th (Wednesday)]

Sharkman

A lot of the posters on this thread do have an agenda. They constantly hammer at AO wife, her actions, her inactions, her IC, her IC’s actions and all that. I have challenged these posters to point out a single post they have ever made where they have endorsed or supported a WS decision to attempt reconciliation. I haven’t seen a single post suggesting his wife is innocent or one justifying her affair or her deceit, but quite a few making claims she is not R-material.

AO is smart enough to realize the length of his WW affair. He’s smart enough to evaluate if he can reconcile or not. He’s also smart enough to realize he doesn’t have to reconcile any more than he wants to. Just like I think he is smart enough to realize that – despite repeated posts again and again to the contrary – he could attempt reconciliation if he thinks it’s possible.

What would I do or would I recommend?

That AO get out of infidelity.

I would hope AO doesn’t get too comfortable on some plateau that’s neither R nor D and doesn’t attempt either path. I know he has time, and think he should use it wisely, but IMHO he still needs to get moving at some point.

I hope that if he decides to D then he won’t wait a year. I would think that the technical aspects of a divorce would be relatively clear already with the separation agreement and I would hope for his sake that he could reach the emotional decision to D within a few months. That way he can start his personal recovery faster. This is why I question his present separation agreement; why I question why WW is feeding animals and stocking fridges. That’s not D nor is it R – it’s limbo.

I hope that if he decides to attempt R then he starts that process in a few months rather than wait a year.

Am I missing something here in regards to A1 making a decision?

It's been just over six weeks since his first post.

He's specifically stated that whether or not he decides to D or it will take one year (legally).

He's asked his WW to leave to give him space to think.

He then had a health scare that put him in the hospital. His focus at that juncture had to be about himself and doing what he needed to do to get stronger/healthier, and not spend as much time thinking/stressing about the situation with WW.

It's also Christmas time and his daughters were both coming to see him and he wanted to spend some quality time with them and not ruin it by bringing up WW.

While visiting him his daughters did bring up their mother and thus they did discuss it for awhile at which time A1 was able to see how much his DDs were hurting.

A1 then read a letter WW left him. All of this is still very new to A1 and he's going through the stages of loss (and he was very forthright in saying he's now VERY angry about all of this).

He's still processing all of this.

As some have pointed out he's not in infidelity.

People chime in on what they would do if in the same situation (which is to be expected on an Internet forum). Nobody on here is going to pressure A1 to do anything he doesn't want to do so the continual telling him "it's his choice" or that he "has time to decide" is pretty obvious.

Seems to me A1 is doing pretty damn good with all of this thus far given his story is one of the worst I've read here on SI.

Keep pressing forward A1. I for one am damn proud of you on how you're handling all of this.

it's very odd. it appears at times that some people really take it personally if the BS doesn't divorce the WS. it has nothing to do with them but they think it does. its almost as if they are emasculated themselves if their fellow BS doesn't subscribe to the same values. so odd.

i wonder if people should first check their projection at the door before entering JFO.

[This message edited by sewardak at 7:48 AM, December 27th (Wednesday)]

Bigger, I agree:

"He's smart enough to evaluate if he can R or not.

A1 has navigated a rocky, turbulent take off out of deceit, relying on his co-pilots--his dd's, attorney, and accountant.

He'll be satisfied with his landing.

Interesting posts. Some contradictory by the same poster. The focus of some posters seems to be his W. I don't see those as being to the exclusion of A1. That are about A1's sitch. It is appropriate to give him advice, feedback about what people see in his W's actions. And that can include their personal views about what he should do. There is as much value in that as what A1 wants to assign to it. I see all posts as A1 centric....except those that thread jack this thing by the back and forth about poster having an agenda that drives their advice. What good does that do A1? I guess its value is to minimize the advice in the hope that A1 will loss confidence in the poster(s) tagged as having an agenda.

A1, I don't see you in limbo. A legal separation doesn't automatically mean someone is in limbo. Or that you haven't made a decision. Or that you may be in limbo if you don't make a decision in 3 months, 6 months, 'fill in the blank' months. To the contrary. I see it as firmly positioning yourself to make your next decision without all of the mind numbing stuff many other BS go through if living together. Not making a decision can be a good decision to make. The legal separation may be a time when you can test drive being D as has been suggested. Or a time when you can see if you can live without your W. Or a time when you can come to terms with what your W did to you and your Ds. Or...everything, as I expect you are doing so early in the process of being run over and peeling yourself off the pavement.

Take counsel from where you find it. Stick "My opinion is..." in front of everyone's posts. There are more unknowns to us than knowns. The thing we know is that she lied, cheated and deceived you. And the things we don't truly know are most important. We don't know you. We don't know your wife. We don't know about your life with her. We don't know about your relationship with her during her adultery. We don't know about your relationship with her after the adultery ended due to the death of her adultery partner.

I expect that some of the things I listed as unknown to us are also things that are unknown to you, since Dday changed a reality you thought you had. And I expect you are using your time to process those unknowns into something that will allow you to move forward and ultimately heal.

I am going to come at this from the same standpoint I have shown on this thread but a different angle.

I am just going to give some passing thoughts on A1’s position, the thoughts of other posters and maybe a small t/jack on what this thread has become (and yes I have been part of that so no fingers are being pointed by me)

I agree largely with Sharkman and have strong disagreements with Bigger on this thread, despite my respect for him as a poster.

I will say this.

1) Bigger, I don’t think people have an agenda on this thread other than to tell A1 exactly how they feel and what they feel he should do. Why do I say this ? For starters, no one here knows A1, they don’t know his family, where he lives and whether he recovers from this or not is not going to have any personal impact on any of our personal lives. Further, we don’t make commission from posting here, we don’t get 5 star status, poster of the year or gift cards and there is always someone who is going to disagree with us anyway. Any one of us, if we took pleasure in increasing someone’s pain, could go out in public and do that with ease. We could abuse our positions at work to do that or post on websites that allow people to demean and threaten and call people names rather than be here which has rules that the mods are very good at enforcing. So I don’t see agendas. I see differences of opinions. That’s all.

2)The second thing is that if I had 5$ for everytime I heard the statement 'it's his decision'. Well of course it is and I don't see anyone from this board sitting on his front lawn with Vikings and torches ready to flush him out if he doesn't agree with them. We all know that he will make the decision at some point and in fact, I believe he already has based on his recent statements and his actions to date.

3)I DO believe that this affair is one of the worst I have ever read about, heard about or witnessed on these boards and multiple forums, in real life and so on. It doesn’t need to be specifically unique in order for it to be horrid. 9 years, every day, betrayal of trust in being a SAHM, in his bed, car, the church, abuse of children supervision (I am inferring that), ending only after SAHD(ickhead) dies and the hiding of it and acting all normal makes this a miserable affair and one that I have seen only two or three people on this board come back from in reconciliation.

4)I believe A1 is out of infidelity. His wife probably hasn’t cheated on him in 9 years and I think he knows what he got handed to him. I believe that NLWSRW has posted here a few times and to hear the pain and frustration in his posts because he reconciled from a much more mild affair 24 years ago and his feeling less of a man for doing so IS NOT where I want to see A1 at 5, 10, 20 years from now. I do appreciate NLW’s posts and hope that A1 considers them. Getting out of infidelity is one step, it’s not the only step. My brother-in-law is one of the few people I have known personally to try and reconcile. I told him I thought it was unwise. 11 years later, his wife is still a cheater, they don’t get along and now if he divorces, the cost will be much worse. He has always told me that deep down inside, he knew I was right. That is not to be an attack on the principle of reconciliation. It is more as a sign of support for people who know what they have to do and their decisiveness in doing it.

5)I agree completely with Bobbi Sue. Limbo is the worst place to be and I too often times disagree with the concept of ‘take your time’. I believe strongly in decisiveness and moving on with your life. If this case was weaker, like Sharkman said a drunken bar one night stand or something to that caliber, I might understand some of that. The position being presented to A1 is very clear and he is moving forward with himself. I have credited him with this

6)AO's wife is exactly where the focus should be on. The focus is on A1's wife because everyone on this board seems to be telling him to 'take his time, it's his decision'. His decision regarding what ??? His wife. Hence, she is everything that needs to be considered here. A1 can’t be the focus of his situation while she’s in the picture. Because everything is about her, what she did and where does A1 go from here.

7)A1 has a lot of life left in him. To try to move him towards reconciliation or keep him in limbo (he’s already there for one year) only costs him more time added on top of the 24 years he’s already lost. Time is a ticking, the opportunities to rebuild IMO are more abundant in society than living with someone he will always see in another man’s arms.

8)I agree with Midnight Run. The lady from 10 years ago who was cheating and the lady from last year who was the ‘excellent wife’ are both the same person

9)This is an internet forum. People have a right to express their opinions based on their own experiences. That’s what makes this board special. The statements ‘take what you need and leave the rest’ to me sounds like one poster telling an OP to ignore those who have an opposing view. IMO, anyone can go from R to D in a matter of minutes or vice-versa. It is always best for an OP to read each thread like a book and take it all in as they never know what they will need. If they knew what they needed, they wouldn’t be here. A1 has been listening to everyone, including all the squabbling. He’s built his own path and I for one thinks he has handled it excellently.

10)I agree completely with Timelessloss and disagree with Seward. I don’t think people are taking it personally regarding R or D. See my first point above. I feel people empathize with A1’s pain and don’t want to see him make a mistake or suffer anymore. I think the passion here, regardless of people’s views, is admirable.

A1, if you read all of this, you are doing great and are right to be angry. Take care of yourself and I know you will come out of this better than most

Amen to Western. Extra points for using 'inferring' correctly. I understand Abraham Lincoln appointed his political enemies & people who didn't like him much to his cabinet. No Yes Men for him. I don't think there's such a thing as too much information or hearing too many opinions. AO will nail it down.

Allow me to switch gears for a moment. AO, at this point, I assume your WW is still not working, and is being financially supported by yourself and her sister. She's out there everyday driving around in a vehicle you paid for, swiping cards connected to your accounts, and even attending therapy that you are no doubt paying for. Now that the holidays are over, and life is returning to normal, I think it's time for her to get a job. Of course your personal finances are nobody's business. You're obviously a successful man, as evidenced by the fact that you were able to live comfortably while your WW was a SAHM. But rather you choose to D or R, I believe your WW's ride down easy street should come to an end. She needs to prepare herself for the real possibility that she could be single in the next year, and she can't realistically live off alimony alone forever. The thought of you as a young man working your ass off for your family while she was engaging in her A, in your bed nonetheless, really burns me up! I think it would be a nice gesture for her to start earning for herself, even if it's just something part-time or whatever.

BTW, I am in no way dogging SAHMs or SAHDs. Whatever works for your family. But she certainly abused the situation, plus your children are grown adults anyway. No reason she shouldn't be employed. Just something to think about.

Western,

That was your opus. Great job man. SI is a great place because everyone cares.

A lot of the posters on this thread do have an agenda. They constantly hammer at AO wife, her actions, her inactions, her IC, her IC’s actions and all that. I have challenged these posters to point out a single post they have ever made where they have endorsed or supported a WS decision to attempt reconciliation. I haven’t seen a single post suggesting his wife is innocent or one justifying her affair or her deceit, but quite a few making claims she is not R-material.

AO is smart enough to realize the length of his WW affair. He’s smart enough to evaluate if he can reconcile or not. He’s also smart enough to realize he doesn’t have to reconcile any more than he wants to. Just like I think he is smart enough to realize that – despite repeated posts again and again to the contrary – he could attempt reconciliation if he thinks it’s possible.

What would I do or would I recommend?

That AO get out of infidelity.

I would hope AO doesn’t get too comfortable on some plateau that’s neither R nor D and doesn’t attempt either path. I know he has time, and think he should use it wisely, but IMHO he still needs to get moving at some point.

I hope that if he decides to D then he won’t wait a year. I would think that the technical aspects of a divorce would be relatively clear already with the separation agreement and I would hope for his sake that he could reach the emotional decision to D within a few months. That way he can start his personal recovery faster. This is why I question his present separation agreement; why I question why WW is feeding animals and stocking fridges. That’s not D nor is it R – it’s limbo.

I hope that if he decides to attempt R then he starts that process in a few months rather than wait a year. [/quote{

A1 is smart enough to pick out the (very) few people with agendas. You are adding to the noise by giving trolls on the other side a voice.

And he’s not in limbo. He has a year to make a decision. You may not agree that a year is enough or that it is too long, but he’s been crystal clear that it’s what he is working towards. So we can accept it and help him within his decision parameters, or we can try to fit a circle peg into a square hole.

Another item A1 could probably use some help with is the time/attention taken from his children by his wife. It wasn't just the nine years during the affair, it's also the one year of mourning and 2.5 years of therapy to get back to being a wife and mother. If I'm guessing correctly, A1's wife was in affair or post affair recovery throughout their entire elementary and secondary schooling years. My wife's affair was much shorter in duration so I don't have much advice I can offer him. Maybe another poster could?

thanks losttoom and Shark.

Look, in reference to Nawlins post, to me that is a factor. There is a large degree of fraud coming from Mrs A1. That includes denial of certain parental efforts to the kids.

It was the family building stage (first 6 years) where she presumably was the best she could have been, followed by the long, long term affair, full fledged, then the recovery from the loss of OM, then it was the hiding of the affair and one other thing which I think was missed here. Even during the last 8 years of this "excellent marriage", Mrs. A1 still denied A1 the same intensity and sexual experiences she provided to shitbag dead guy. To many guys, this is a factor that can't and won't be ignored.

She not only blew up his sexual prime by not providing for him, she never made the incredible effort to make it up to him either. She also had to go to counseling to be 'a good wife' when she should have been one all along.

If my wife took on the whole financial burden and allowed me to be a SAHD, I would have every ounce of the house so clean, you could eat off the floors and I would she ashamed if there was even a single dust bunny.

Something tells me that the last 8 years was simply 'preservation' mode and trying to avoid further loss.

This story is so sad on so many levels but I think the betrayal goes beyond the affair itself which is the worst part of it.

Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving, just in the wrong ways