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I read the best, simple concept associated with forgiveness. You can't forgive until the danger is no longer present. That to me made it all clear. I believe forgiveness is a necessity to R, but it requires that the WS exhibit behaviors that lead you to determine they have moved past being a danger or unsafe.

Forgiveness is not forgetting, but it serves no purpose to forgiver what may likely recur. When the WS is remorseful, in the authentic and deep way that it will serve an R, then forgiveness is required to heal the BS and the M. But talk of forgiveness prior to that state of mind and heart of the BS seems meaningless. If you forgive before your WS is completely safe from more distrust or deception or disrespect, it will haunt you and confuse you about forgiveness,

I agree with DIFM but I was also trying to respond to an earlier post that seemed to imply that if you forgive you must R and if you D then you never forgave. I do not think that is accurate. You can divorce and forgive as I have done. I just couldn't live with the uncertainty that it would happen again. Also I know people that stay married, I'm not sure I would call it reconciled, but they have never forgiven. I think you are right that a successful reconciliation, whatever that is, needs to have forgiveness.

DIFF and Bin:

My thoughts are really similar to what DIFF wrote, I might not have just expressed it clearly, I don't think that if you forgive then you must R, I only hold the OP feeling in this outcome. it to achieve the highest quality of life,

The statement below by Beentherinco is not the point I was trying to get across.

"I was also trying to respond to an earlier post that seemed to imply that if you forgive you must R and if you D then you never forgave."

In the OP' situation, I think that the WW may have had enough time to have changed and then can prove the the OP that she can be a safe partner.

I agree with the the rest of DIFM's post.

I,too, understand the need to not show emotions in certain circumstances. I think it's ingrained in most men. I went so far as to laugh in my ww's face, which made it even more painful and embarrassing for her. Needless to say, I, too, was in pain--but I refused to show it.

[This message edited by MidnightRun at 1:59 PM, December 13th (Wednesday)]

I discovered this the hard way myself, once upon a time! I'm sorry that you passed out. Please take care of yourself.

I'm not one to tell anyone here what to do. I would just like to say as a wife (regardless of the fact that I am the betrayed), if I found my WH like your WW found you, I would behave similarly as your WW (maybe not blaming myself). I would want to be with him, I would want to take care of him.

I'm not sticking up for your WW; don't get me wrong - simply saying she cares about you and what happens to you. Of course she blames herself - she knows this happened to you because of her past actions.

Take care of yourself and I hope you are up and running in no time! Peace and strength!

I was raised in a Buddhist faith, and when I met my wife (black and white from my WFG), she introduced me into the christian faith. I'm not really promoting the faith per say, but there is a teaching, philosophy, believe, I guess, what ever you call it that the faith teach us to forgive..... I said forgive, not forget....

if you forgive her, then your live can be as good as it was before DD, she has to try harder then hell to allow you to slowly forget over time if that is even possible. you would have a good quality of life.

you can also choose not to forgive her and divorce and go into the new adventure of a new life. Would this life give you a better quality of life vs the one with a R'ed wife that is trying very very very hard to appreciate your forgiveness and to slowing heal you to the point that you can forget?

No offense, but this doesn't make sense. It presumes that forgiveness and divorce are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Many people here have both terminated the relationships and reconciled relationships while offering forgiveness in a biblical sense.

In both SI's divorce and reconciliation forums you'll find some amazing subject matter experts using forgiveness as a tool to move beyond this.

Here in Just Found Out, we need to approach this from a triage perspective. Forgiveness comes much after many other steps that we need to assist our unfortunate friends in navigating their journeys away from infidelity.

Getting out on infidelity is the first step. WW's boyfriend is dead in this case so it's reasonably moot. Next step is helping the betrayed find empowerment. A1 is showing *every* positive sign that we can hope to see in this regard. He's not there yet, but he will be.

The next is to help him abstract away emotions so that he can make a "spreadsheet" decision on if this is the life that he's been put on this earth to live. Helping him take action (180 plan, engaging a qualified IC) is the best that we can hope to do.

The right IC will identify if he has the capacity to both forgive and forget. There are other factors out there that they must consider. I mean, if you forgive and forget but say her nine year affair made him fall out of love with the new person standing there in front of him... say that a person conducting a nine year affair and doing all of those bad things is plain just not someone he wants to spend the rest of his life with, well that makes sense too. Under those pretenses he absolutely can forgive and forget, but she still would not represent "the one woman on earth I have to spend the rest of my life with"

Forget?

That would be a major mistake. Especially if AO was to reconcile.

You don't forget, but you decide to not allow the memory to control your actions.

You could try an Idaho smoothie. Venison and beer blended with a pinch of parsley

.

Now thats my kind of smoothie!

A,

I was stoic and focused during my shit storm and didn't realize I had lost 10 pounds.

Force yourself to eat. What are your favorite dishes? Steak? Shrimp? Eat in small portions if necessary.

I feel like I've let you down. Should have thought this might have been a problem. I went from skinny to skeletal after dday.

I know showing 'weakness' as you say makes you uncomfortable, but perhaps it helps to know that you just made some of us feel better about ourselves that you are in fact a real human . You've handled this extremely well. A textbook case of what to do.

Protein smoothies were very effective in getting the weight back up. You can get protein powder at the grocery store. Also I found that you can add peanut butter and even instant oats to the blender to give it more calories and body. Estimate calorie content given the ingredients so you can meet the caloric intake you set for yourself. Maintain the machine!

[This message edited by antlered at 5:30 PM, December 13th (Wednesday)]

Made a smoothie when I got home. The tofu was surprisingly tasteless. Peanut butter made the smoothie taste better, so thanks for that suggestion Antlered. Even though I still don’t have any appetite, I have learned my lesson. I will be forcing these things down no matter what.

I stayed home from work today and slept. Felt guilty, but I promised the doctor I would rest. SIL called and said WW was still inconsolable. I suggested that she try to get WW in to see her IC today. Do waywards have nervous breakdowns like this? I don’t remember reading about such a thing in any other threads.

Watching WW last night elicited the strangest mix of emotions I have ever experienced. My natural reaction to seeing her that upset would be to try and console her. Give her a hug, etc. But now a big part of my brain almost refuses to recognize her. It’s difficult to explain. I obviously know who she is, but I guess I see her in a different light now? It’s not that I didn’t care that she was upset, but it almost felt like I was watching a stranger or distant acquaintance. I felt very...detached I guess. I’m not sure how healthy that is.

Several people were discussing the role of forgiveness in this process. I don’t tend toward being a particularly forgiving person. And I know I won’t forget. Too much to think about tonight. Going back to bed.

Watching WW last night elicited the strangest mix of emotions I have ever experienced. My natural reaction to seeing her that upset would be to try and console her. Give her a hug, etc. But now a big part of my brain almost refuses to recognize her. It’s difficult to explain. I obviously know who she is, but I guess I see her in a different light now? It’s not that I didn’t care that she was upset, but it almost felt like I was watching a stranger or distant acquaintance. I felt very...detached I guess. I’m not sure how healthy that is.

That is your brain and emotions protecting yourself. You haven't brought this up in your posts but I expect your mind has been working since DDay to reconcile the woman you knew and the life you experienced, with the woman you have just learned about. Many (most?) BS threads say words like 'I don't know who this person is'. So you're carrying around two true understandings about your W that are beyond comprehension.

Pre Dday A1 would absolutely rush to his wife's side if he saw her in pain. Post Dday A1 doesn't know who this person is. You detached as a coping mechanism to avoid this conflicting view.

Healthy in the sense that at that time you needed something to help you avoid the conflicting view of your W. Long term it is not helpful to you. Discuss with your IC. The feeling is "normal" in the context of what you are doing through. Your IC can work with you on reconciling these two seemingly conflicting views of your W.

There are wonky IC terms that apply to what you felt and why you felt it. For me, I've dumbed that down to the heart says one thing, the mind another.

Rest well and often. You have that trip coming up w/your daughters. You gotta look in good shape to them otherwise they may put you under house arrest.

Do waywards have nervous breakdowns like this? I don’t remember reading about such a thing in any other threads.

Spaceghost0007's wife had bad time. Wallop's wife also. Think Spaceghost said in last update his wife od'd on pills. Wound up in hospital.

Yes, waywards have nervous breskdowns. Read yhgtbkm's thread.

Excellent post by Timeless!

Your WW has her SIL and IC for support. I'd like to see you focusing on you.

Of course she feels terrible. Her world is falling apart due to her deliberate choices made for nine years. You are dealing with the same fallout but without several years to think about it.

So, get those shakes down with a multivitamin chaser . You can switch it up a bit, fruit/yougurt/tofu, peanut butter/chocolate. Ripe banana, ice cream... Also consider the quick oats.

Good to hear you are keeping on the IC. I found it very useful to identify and manage my own emotions and behaviors. Find one that 'fits'.

[This message edited by antlered at 6:07 AM, December 14th (Thursday)]

"SIL called and said WW was still inconsolable."

this needs to stop. it's not your monkey to babysit anymore.

Tell SIL you still want NC with wife (that includes updates from SIL) and to honor that.

OhForANewMe’s thread is also a precise roadmap on the optimal method to handle an emotionally unstable wife while focusing on healing oneself.

He will not approve of the tofu though

I obviously know who she is,

Actually, you obviously don't, and never did. Literally, the mental model of the person you had built in your head only loosely corresponds to the person you are married to.

It took me a while to see that with my wife, and it wasn't until I stopped trying to reconcile the two and just look at my wife like a stranger with truly open eyes, rebuilding who she is in my noggin, that progress happened in understanding WTF had happened.

So try to un-know your wife and really look at her. Forget what you knew, because a lot was wrong. See her with open eyes.

One of the lessons for you in this shitstorm is that this is the sort of world we live in, where we "know" so much that isn't really based on hard facts, but instead are beliefs held for a huge variety of reasons, including because we want to believe them. Your wife, kids, parents, politicians, the postman, the guy collecting tolls (or tools!) at the bridge...they all have complex internal lives going on that don't match up with what we think of them. It was like the red pill/blue pill thing from the Matrix when I realized this. It has changed the way I look at everything, and made me question huge reams of previously unchallenged assumptions about the world and myself. This is "the gift" you've been given if you eventually decide to do something with it.

For example, her affair has to be the absolute pivot point in her life. The most monumentally influential thing that has occurred, that not only resulted in her shameful behavior, but paradoxically it likely influenced her positive behavior on the backside. They key thing that defines who she is now. And you never knew.

So often you hear on here, "I don't understand how they could do it", and in the question it is unspoken that the emphasis is on "how could they do it". They could do it because that is who they are. The real emphasis needs to be on the "I don't understand..." because that is where the error is. You didn't truly know them.

So un-know what you know, and see things as if seeing them for the first time.

Sending strength!

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 1:42 PM, December 14th (Thursday)]

My XWW did have a breakdown after our house was sold. It was very hard on her and she didn’t deal with it very well.

I am sure it is hard on your wife. Finding you like that would have been difficult for her.

Do you remember the time when her OM died unexpectedly? I am guessing that was also traumatic for her. I wonder what her state of mind was like then knowing she couldn’t talk to you about it.

And I think you can divorce and still forgive her at some point. As I told my XW I didn’t want to look at her wondering if she is thinking about screwing the OM. In your case I am not surprised your body gave out. When you find out your wife was giving herself to another for 8 years. Reading how he was better than you in those emails... It would be hard to take.

You Sir are a remarkable man who had a traumatic experience in your life. You have my full respect. Do whatever is best for you.

Yikes, AO! Glad you're okay and on route to eating healthier. (Just don't let the church ladies know, or they will never leave you alone! haha)