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Completely confused and all over the place

Topic is Sleeping.
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 7:41 AM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Great post by Trdd.

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6638   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8788447
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 9:38 AM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Hellfire:

Let's break this down.

If your wife is NC,and has blocked him,how would she find out you told? Unless,of course she is still messaging him,and in contact with him.

If I need to contact someone to buy something on Facebook, I find their name and I message them. Pretty simple. No contact doesn't mean he can't contact her if he wants to. If she finds out, it was clearly me, and then he would contact my wife.

Also, you are completely dismissing the fact that its extremely possible OM told his buddies. Cheating husbands often like to brag to their friends. They also like to show any sexy pics they got from their OW. One of his buddies could tell his wife. Or one of their girlfriend's will tell.

Nope. There is no way he wanted his wife to find out.

It's also extremely possible he didn't delete everything. Any idea how many WS here were caught, because they didn't delete
everything, and their BS found it?

It's also possible she will decide to look at the phone bill,and see your wife's number hundreds of times. Or she could find the charges for the hotel room.

This is all possible, granted.

If any of that happens, you should prepare yourself for the fallout. When BW find out everyone else knew,and the BH gave his permission (not an unusual thing, we've seen it here before), she tends to get very upset. She could post your wife on a homewrecker site. And you can not ask her to leave your family alone..because you lost that right.

Fair, but he doesn't know that I knew all along. And this is a symptom of all affairs surely.

As I said previously, I won't be telling the OBS so apologies for the triggering.

Ozzy I just wanted you to know that I had all the same reasons for not telling the OBS as you.

Want to guess what that got me?

A second D-day, 2 years later. Because the affair wasn’t properly blown up/outted, it was much easier for them to rekindle things a bit down the line when reconciliation got hard. When the marriage got hard again, he still had her to turn to, and she still had nothing to lose since her spouse didn’t know.

You think not telling protects your relationship, but the reality is that it makes it MUCH more vulnerable.

I blew it up the second time, shared with the OBS all of the info I had from both affairs (and apologized profusely), threw my husband out, and filed for divorce.

Know what happened then? My WS actually started to be honest in therapy, engaged HARD in it 2x weekly for 6 months while we remained separated and shared custody of our 3 young children. At that time I heard him out, what he had learned and been working on—- his "whys" for the affair as he understood them then— and was willing to consider reconciliation. He moved back in after 9 months, and we’ve been reconciled for 4 years now. Much happier marriage than the "first" one we had.

Save yourself the heartache of the second dday. It was awful and it changed me as a person. I needed 2 years of intense therapy to move through what happened in a way where I felt whole again, because the second dday was such a shock to my nervous system and brain in a way I can’t even explain. You don’t deserve that and neither does OBS.

Hope you can see that you’re opening yourself up to significantly more risk this way, even if you take the OBS’s right to know out of the equation.

Good luck of you.

Mamabear, thanks for this. An empathetic view of the situation. At this point we are not remotely reconciled. If I feel like we are getting to that point then further conversations will obviously be needed. I am only 3 months in at this point.

Edie:

The difference between desire and arousal is not for you to solve. Let’s see if she can find a more sensitive and empathic way of discovery on the matter and self growth. Her lack of curiosity in terms of the literature widely available concerns me

Which of course is what the 180 is about. Still not convinced you’re doing it with any consistency or commitment.

Part of me just wants to switch to private messages with you. I know you also want me to tell OBS but all of your posts are kind, calm and reassuring. I agree that the not wanting to look at literature is a problem. But she is in early days and lets see what her IC and CC bring. She is reading stuff, just wants to get there on her own rather than me badger her which I guess makes sense.

And Trdd - I agree that this is a great post.

I agree with Lurkingsoul12's post about the pick me dance on page 21. You started there, came out of it nicely but now would be well served by taking two more giant steps forward and concentrating on you. If there is any chance of your wife's head getting straight it will be helped by her seeing you as confident, healthy and strong.

She is witnessing another step from me at the moment. Yesterday rather than stew in bed I got up and went for a run. She is constantly in tears at the moment due to the bleakness of the future. I am calm and strong and when she says "can we get back to just being friends with each other for the sake of the boys?" I calmly say "well that isn't going to be enough".

Is that doing the 180 right? It feels right to me.

I have no idea about your wife regaining her passion but I can tell you that it is pretty typical for it to wax and wane over time in a long relationship. She may have broken, unrealistic expectations about what true love actually is. Many people think they need the type of sexual spark they had with a brand new relationship or the love is gone. That thinking is BS. Most people have to work hard to keep the fire stoked and most couples fail at some point in their marriage. Usually due to busy parenting and stressful jobs. ALL THAT IS NORMAL. Then posom comes along, hits on her in small ways and the EA starts. Now the sex drive is back but for him. That is how affairs operate. It does not mean true love, but she doesn't quite grasp that.

She does want something that isn't achievable, she is a perfectionist in that regard. She is aware of this flaw but the question is what to do about it? She understands that being alone will be miserable (and terrible for the boys). But getting those feelings back? Neither of us know if that is possible.

And it is the chicken or the egg. I mean shit, if she literally told you she doesn't even want to kiss you... then ask her this: was she feeling that way toward you before the EA started with this guy? Way back when they first began talking more intimately? Long before the sex? I bet she wasn't. Her passion had waned but she was still ok with you. Then it shifted to him, and that killed it for you because she really is monogamous. The Affair acclerated her lack of passion to a place she otherwise may never have gotten to without it. Plausible? Easily. Likely? I think so.

Yes, she was feeling that way years ago. I said earlier in the thread there were signs there that I didn't read. Sex was dutiful and had to be pushed for by me most of the time rather than her wanting to. Absolutely correct about the affair accelerating those feelings though. A shame it went this way but here we are. And as I said above, she will be noticing that I am calm and numb and going about my life while she is in bits.

I think people are beating you up about the OBS as if their personal lives depended on it. I've mostly stated my pov but I want to add that what some people said here and I hinted at earlier could very well be true... she is still in limerance over the posom. She is still pining for him and thinks that it was true love. You do have to take that seriously. Their last meeting was probably "we made a terrible mistake but I'll always remember our passion and connection. And "love" if they've been saying that. If that is the case, reconnection is possible and even if they don't, the connection is still present in her mind.

I get what you are saying here, but she knows it is done and is in such a state as she doesn't know if we can work things out / if she can gain those feelings back. Next weeks holiday will be a good test.

If all that is accurate and doesn't change over the coming weeks, then telling the OBS gains credibility from a "stop the affair" perspective.

Good point about the coming weeks. If she meets up with him behind my back or anything, then she will have cheated on me (remember, everything that has been done to this point has been discussed in advance and at length) and my whole mindset will be different.

Man, literally everyone here thought this. You're average, so please start accepting advice from people here who just lived a similar story.

bob7777 - you may have misunderstood my quote. I meant we are not like other couples in that I gave her my blessing to sleep with this guy. We were both excited by the prospect. Granted, I said I would rather not be in this situation in the first place but given the situation I was in, I came to be OK with the idea that she could have the fun she desired. Yes, that feeling went away for me very quickly but it was there.

posts: 168   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8788450
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 9:46 AM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Oh I meant to say at the end:

It's clear you aren't listening to 99% of the advice you're getting.

I actually disagree with this. Posts like Edies I am listening to all of it. I feel I am listening to 90%. It is just that the focus is on 10%. I understand that this 10% is very important to people but I have received a huge amount of useful information here and it is helping me move forward so I will keep my armour up against people that are disgusted by me.

Thanks for all of the advice again (including the 10%, I totally understand where you are all coming from).

[This message edited by Ozzy1788 at 9:47 AM, Tuesday, April 25th]

posts: 168   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8788451
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 9:59 AM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

She is witnessing another step from me at the moment. Yesterday rather than stew in bed I got up and went for a run. She is constantly in tears at the moment due to the bleakness of the future. I am calm and strong and when she says "can we get back to just being friends with each other for th.e sake of the boys?" I calmly say "well that isn't going to be enough".

Is that doing the 180 right? It feels right to me.

This is good. You are keeping your distance from her. You have clearly expressed what is enough and okay for you. She invited you to play pick me but you refused. This is good. But, I don't understand how you are going to maintain this space if you go on a vacation with her. Vacation makes it extremely hard to follow 180.

I have to point out that her asking you to play family for the sake of kids disregarding what you want from her is extremely concerning. I don't know why she thinks you will be fine with this.

Also, what happened to IC sessions? Is she attending?

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 10:01 AM, Tuesday, April 25th]

posts: 457   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8788452
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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 2:14 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

If I'm understanding this thread correctly, your marital sex/passion was waning. In a childless environment, you'd probably just throw in the towel and divorce. But you have kids and therefore you're trying to figure out a way to stiff-upper-lip it and stay in the ring. Under some sort of Möbius of logic, the proffered solution was a one-sided open marriage in favor of your wife. Not just a generally open marriage where she could have unspecified sexual encounters; rather, a specific hall pass to have sex and emotional relationship with a man whom she has known a long time, and who is married, a fact that both you and your wife know. You both also know that, to consummate this arrangement, he will be lying to and cheating upon his wife.

Query why you didn't instead propose a two-sided open marriage? I have a hard time seeing how opening just the wife's side of the marriage helps anything. If the goal is to remain as a family unit "for the kids" (a meritless concept in my opinion) while allowing the adults to pursue their separate sexual fun, then why not foster an environment in which both partners can have some freedom? Your concept is sort of like that movie with Demi Moore back about 15 or so years ago, the Faustian fable in which she agrees to have sex with another man for $1 million and everything goes to shit. Except you didn't get $1 million. Nor did you get a wife purring with sexual fulfillment, eager to reinvigorate your marriage. All you got was everything going to shit.

But I digress. To accomplish this, your wife fucked another married man, with your knowledge, consent, and even tacit encouragement. The other man does NOT have any agreement with his wife (the OBW) consenting to his philandering. To the contrary, he is lying and cheating. Your wife conspired with him in doing this. She enabled him to cheat on his wife. YOU ALSO enabled him to cheat on his wife. In that sense, you are not just a hapless BH who discovered cheating (whom this forum routinely advises to inform the OBW). You are proactively involved in poisoning another human's marriage. From the perspective of the OBW, you and your wife are essentially co-cheaters. That probably explains your apparent lack of empathy for her, and your reluctance to reach out to her.

Now you're stuck wallowing in the aftermath of your initial decision about the one-sided open marriage, and you carry the overlay of being the cause of infidelity in another human's marriage. Good luck sorting it out. I honestly don't have an answer for you. The heart knows what it knows.

We often see threads where a WS offers the BS a hall pass. The almost universal view of this is that it is a death knell of the marriage, ultimately an insult to the BS. It is proof that the WS truly doesn't value the BS's fidelity. In that context, offering the BS a hall pass is tantamount to saying "I no longer love nor desire you. Please go."

To me, the preemptive hall pass you gave your wife is a species of this. It feels like an inevitability that you will need to end your marriage. The granting of the hall pass to your wife, that was the moment you acknowledged the marriage was over. The open question is whether you will man up and do right by the OBW whose life you have had an active hand in poisoning.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:59 PM, Tuesday, April 25th]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 4179   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8788470
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asc1226 ( member #75363) posted at 2:49 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Query why you didn't instead propose a two-sided open marriage?

BFTG, IIRC their agreement was that he would also be free to seek other partners.

I make edits, words is hard

posts: 608   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2020
id 8788476
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 2:54 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Part of me just wants to switch to private messages with you. I know you also want me to tell OBS but all of your posts are kind, calm and reassuring. I agree that the not wanting to look at literature is a problem. But she is in early days and lets see what her IC and CC bring. She is reading stuff, just wants to get there on her own rather than me badger her which I guess makes sense.

1. Definitely do not badger her. It’s not the 180.

2. On the contrary, my comments about OBS have been more about a sense that you seem to lack empathy for her rather than wanting you to tell her.

3. You’re welcome to PM if you prefer.

[This message edited by Edie at 2:55 PM, Tuesday, April 25th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6638   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8788478
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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 3:36 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

asc1226:

This is what he said early on:

Ultimately we got together and over 15 years on here we are. The situation we are in is like a return to that - she didn't expect to start feeling that way for this other guy but she did, and I genuinely feel like I shouldn't deny her this opportunity.

So yeah, it is an open relationship. If it carries on between them then I would be up for doing similar, just at the moment it isn't something that I want.

I didn't interpret that as being a two-way open relationship. In my single life, I had plenty of FWB situations that were not exclusive, including my current (second) wife. In the case of my wife and I, as our relationship became serious, we discussed and then agreed to be exclusive. Also, we used traditional vows when we got married, which include solemn promises of fidelity exclusivity.

My take on OP's comment was that the path of his relationship with his wife was sort of like mine, meaning that they are now married in a traditional (e.e. exclusive) union. He doesn't mention an express agreement, entered into willingly by both spouses, to an open marriage. Rather, he appears to be twisting himself into knots trying to view this as a return to the "before time", when they were non-exclusive, and this logic leads him to believe that his wife would be okay with him seeing others, even though OP himself does not desire nor currently agree to a true open marriage.

The slang term "backronym" refers to an apocryphal explanation for the etymology of a slang word using a made-up acronym. "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" is perhaps the most well-known. It's a false history, created after the fact. It feels like OP's effort to view his marriage as an open marriage, coming in the wake of his wife's expressed desire to help her ex cheat on his current wife, is a sort of emotional backronym.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:52 PM, Tuesday, April 25th]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 4179   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8788485
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 3:48 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

We were both excited by the prospect.

Excitement setting someone’s else home on fire but play victim when the flames hit your own home. Play with fire and feel the burn. That’s what’s happening right now.

posts: 273   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8788487
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Unsure2019 ( member #71350) posted at 3:57 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Ozzy,

Butforthegrace nailed it (several posts up). It’s just been painful to watch you turn yourself into a pretzel to justify both the actions that you took and the actions you refuse to take. I think you may be in a deeper fog than you’re WW. I just don’t see how R could possibly work with what you both are brining to the table.

posts: 278   ·   registered: Aug. 21st, 2019   ·   location: California
id 8788489
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 4:03 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Like OP said this is a different and unique situation. Usually, in all affair stories there are two BS and two WS/AP. As we all know WS and AP never have any empathy for BS and OBS. This story is not the usual one. It's unique because there is only one BS here. That is OBS. Rest are OBS's husband (WS) and two APs - OP is AEP- Affair enabled partner and OP's wife is ASP- affair sexual partner. Since, both OP and his wife are APs here, it's only normal and natural for them to not have any empathy towards OBS. Since, both are in affair fog they won't do the right thing.

I call OP as AP because he wasn't coerced into giving blessings. He was excited with the prospect. He was expecting some form of reward from this new arrangement.
All this time I thought we were helping BS but in reality we were helping AP.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 5:19 PM, Tuesday, April 25th]

posts: 457   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8788490
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 4:18 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

LurkingSoul
OP is AEP- Affair enabled partner

I think the infidelity world will need to update their dictionaries now considering this new trend of supposedly " ethical non monogamy " in marriages and relationships.

posts: 273   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8788493
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 5:20 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

I call OP as AP because he wasn't coerced into giving blessings. He was excited with the prospect. He was expecting some form of reward from this new arrangement.

Yes! That's what hasn't sat right with me,when it comes to OP. I read someone say he was coerced, and that allowed me to not absorb some of the things he has written.

I've reread this thread this morning. Op was 100% ok with his wife being with a married man. He has outright said he was excited about it. That,in the beginning, it drew them closer. He was into sharing his wife with another man. He enjoyed telling her what she could,and couldn't do sexually with another man. Then she would come home and tell him what they did,and he got off on it. The problem didn't arise,until she fell for the OM. Then, suddenly, he wasn't so ok with it. He was losing control over the situation. He believes she was honest, because he believed he was controlling their interactions. Her falling for him,meant he might lost some of that control.

Of course he isn't going to tell OBS. She has never really been considered as a human being,by Ozzy and his wife, throughout this entire thing. They don't care about her, only themselves.

This isn't infidelity. This is an open marriage that both were cool with,until the wife caught feelings,and started to turn more towards the OM, and away from the husband. Ozzy was ok with the sex..he was EXCITED by it.

Agreed that Ozzy is a co-AP. He is not a BH. He himself doesn't think he is a BH..after all..he was ok with it from the start..and his wife has been honest about everything (why wouldn't she be? It excited him..that's why he knows she was honest). He wasn't betrayed at all. He was a willing, enthusiastic participant.

Abalone, I believe you've been right about this all along.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:23 PM, Tuesday, April 25th]

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6626   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8788496
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 5:29 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Hellfire and Abalone: I based my opinion that he was coerced on his first post and on subsequent posts in which he said he felt like he was in Squid Game (concede to the affair or lose his marriage). I thought he was rewriting history when he insisted that he agreed to this all along and everything was on the up-and-up from day 1. But based on everything he's posted recently and his responses, I'm now willing to take Ozzy at his current word, even though it contradicts everything he said about a dozen pages earlier.

Going forward, Ozzy, it's probably more appropriate if you post on the Wayward Side, where you may derive greater benefit from the insights of former cheating spouses and former affair partners, who aren't allowed to contribute in JFO, than you can from the betrayed spouses here.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:30 PM, Tuesday, April 25th]

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1894   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8788497
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Greto ( member #80904) posted at 6:25 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Bluerthanblue's suggestions about the Wayward forum seems the best option. They can also help possibly allow Ozzy to see things from his wife's perspective.

I have followed this thread since beginning, never did I get the feeling Ozzy was "excited" about opening up his marriage. He never seemed into the idea but was appeasing his wife. Maybe I misunderstood his feelings.

posts: 113   ·   registered: Sep. 9th, 2022   ·   location: Sandusky, Ohio
id 8788508
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 6:30 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Wow. Believe it or not I haven't been constructing a complex Web of lies for detectives to unravel. The 2 statements are complementary, not contradictory.

I'm shocked (and kind of impressed) by the commitment to the cause to find errors in my story.

- I never wanted an open relationship
- As it seemed like it was the only option, I got on board with it and was briefly excited by the situation (note the actual act didn't excite me, it repulsed me, but briefly our relationship seemed better)

Then the lead up to the second time I felt sick and found this site, which I posted on soon after. As I said previously, if I hadn't found this site it could be ongoing but now it's over.

Seems like there's no way past that 10% so my time here could be done.

Thanks for the 90% of advice.

Edie-i do have empathy for OBS. Part of me coming to this site was the realisation of how fucking wrong this all was. Thanks for clarifying your position, and I may PM you for advice sometime.

posts: 168   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8788509
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 6:51 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

"whole idea does sound pretty great and I would possibly like the same opportunity while not breaking up the family"


I feel like my whole post should have been more about the EA and trying to manage her want to carry on seeing him rather than anything to do with the physical side as that has completely taken over


Ozzy, Not sure what I am smoking but from what I read above nothing screams poor betrayed spouse. You can’t take the heat and want to get out of the kitchen. Fair enough. Atleast be honest about not giving two hoots about OBS. It’s all about you and your wife, bringing excitement to your marriage at the cost of someone else’s. You are only sorry about how opening up the marriage impacted your marriage not the OBS’s.

posts: 273   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8788510
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 7:01 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Ozzy, every time that myself and others have pointed out that you didn't want this open relationship and you were pressured to do so by your wife for free for losing your marriage, you have always defended your wife, insisted you went along with it willingly, and cited your agreement with this affair as the primary reason you can't out OM to OBS.

Now that a few people, such as myself, have finally come around to agreeing with you, you're back to implying that you were coerced into accepting this affair.

So which is it?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:03 PM, Tuesday, April 25th]

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1894   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8788511
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 7:01 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

I gave her my blessing to sleep with this guy. We were both excited by the prospect. Granted, I said I would rather not be in this situation in the first place but given the situation I was in, I came to be OK with the idea that she could have the fun she desired. Yes, that feeling went away for me very quickly but it was there.

You were excited about it..until you weren't. When you realized she was falling for him, the excitement ended.

And,with that, I'm done. I hope OBS finds out, before her physical health is ruined. I hope you don't find out your wife is having an affair in the future. Good luck to you. I'm out.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6626   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8788512
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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 7:21 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023

Then the lead up to the second time I felt sick and found this site, which I posted on soon after. As I said previously, if I hadn't found this site it could be ongoing but now it's over.

Fair enough. That was pretty much my takeaway from reading your thread. In a panic reaction to the thought of becoming a divorced father, you twisted your emotions into a psychological Möbius and tried to convince yourself that your wife fucking her ex could somehow reinvigorate your marriage. Then you realized that sitting home with the kids while the wife is getting dicked down by another man feels profoundly shitty.

However, in the process, you actively participated in the infliction of a grievous wrong upon a fellow human, the OBW. At this point, because of the manner in which you injected yourself into that narrative, you can be either part of the solution or part of the problem. Binary choice. Your actions will define which choice you make.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:02 PM, Thursday, April 27th]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 4179   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8788514
Topic is Sleeping.
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