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Completely confused and all over the place

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40YOSL ( member #49318) posted at 7:22 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

You are making a big mistake by allowing them to have a face-to-face closure unless you are there with them.
They will be bemoaning the fact that they are soul mates and star-crossed lovers and if only the planets had aligned. They'll never forget how wonderful the AP is and will always think fondly of their time together.
They will leave saying they wish things could be different.
So now you will have a wife who will forever be thinking of that romanticized time she spent with him barf
You need to be there so that doesn't Happen! You need to be there to remind them of what pieces of shit they were screwing over you and the OBS.
If she meets with him alone for closure they won't be discussing how wrong, screwed up and disgusting their relationship was. She may not end up screwing him at that meeting but if you don't go to that meeting you should expect that it will be your marriage in the future that got screwed.

posts: 507   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2015
id 8787477
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Tamers1955 ( new member #52802) posted at 7:54 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hi Ozzy ,fellow Uk and Aussie dual nationality here.
Sorry I am a pretty blunt talker, your wife is totally taking the piss here ,she thinks she has you by the balls because of the children and you are enabling her .
What you are doing may be financially better for you ,but your health will suffer with what she is doing to you ,and then your kids may be left not seeing their father at all.
I can’t see things getting any better for the both of you when you are letting her take the wheel in your marriage .
She has told you she has lost attraction to you ,why don’t you just believe her and tell her go get it from someone else and be done with all this shit ,and let you find yourself again.
You will find in time you can be happy again,sorry I just don’t see it with her .
Once you pull the plug she may very well realise what she had ,but no way would I take her back with the total disrespect she has shown you and your kids ,because believe me they will have picked up on it ,as I did as I was once them in a shitty marriage between my parents.
Sorry I can’t see this ever leaving you in what she has done

posts: 26   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2016   ·   location: Uk
id 8787481
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MorbidCuriosity ( member #74928) posted at 9:22 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

I understand why you are being so passive and remain at such a weak position.

On one hand you have to eat shit to keep a marriage.

On the other hand you have to lose kiddy time and money if you want to have any semblance of dignity or integrity.

But are you really damn sure that losing time with kids, money, dignity and integrity is worth the shit eating?

Having more time with the children does not guarantee that those time would be well spent. The children will be forced to spend time with a father who is bullied and what do you think they would learn from that? All they will see that it is ok to take shit and eat shit if it means keeping another person happy. And after all 50 of your posts, I can tell you for sure, even if you would not likely admit it, at this point time with the children is just an excuse or justification to stay in your misery.

The fact that you can say that if you tell the OBS about this your marriage would be ruined tells so much about your WW's train of thought. If you hurt the one I love, I will destroy what we have.

It is blackmail. And she isnt doing the dirty for your sake. Thats just fucking disgusting.

posts: 57   ·   registered: Jul. 19th, 2020
id 8787484
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 9:49 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Lots to take in the last 25 hours.

@hurthalo a beer in London sounds really good. I can already tell we would get on well and I could learn a lot from your experience.

How do you even bounce back from your husband or wife telling you they aren’t attracted to you?

This alone causes epic damage to a marriage, outside a f the sordidness of her leaving the house and saying goodbye to kids and husband and going to sleep with her ex.

Ozzy please start taking care of yourself and your kids. You deserve better.

We’ve all been in your shoes and you’re in the worst of it. Things get better when you take charge or your life. I think what you’re struggling with is letting go of the belief that you and your wife are a team. But you’re not :(

I want to focus on this one as it is the crux of the matter. There is a lot of focus on this "closure" meeting and I get it. I almost want the focus to be on that fateful day when I gave my agreement for her to be with him. If I had said no then, I would be in the same position as I am now, but without her having slept with him. But I did give my agreement. When I then said for her to end things, she called him the next day and was gutted by it. I said I expected her to meet up with him one more time and not just call him for "one last hurrah" (my words) and she actively looked disgusted. She won't be sleeping with him this Friday. She doesn't want to. I can't emphasise enough the period between her telling me she had feelings for him and when she called him to call it off have been the most open communication that I can imagine a couple can ever have. She was then coming to the realisation she had fucked up but I pulled the pin before she could. She WILL come away from it gutted that she fucked up having a friendship with him (which I was downright decent and not jealous to have been OK with in the first place) but she knows that she has fucked it up.

So despite all of that, I am now much more focussed (especially after a good IC session yesterday) on where this leaves ME. Her inability to admit any wrongdoing in any of this, and the fixation on a lack of attraction to me (and saying it has nothing to do with OM) has made me question our whole relationship.

To those that asked, I never ever would have wanted to be with anyone else. But I was justifying in my brain why she would want to, and it is true that if your thought process even goes there (as hers did and I got wondering) there must be something wrong there. Our relationship wasn't strong enough for an open relationship, so we both screwed up there. It was cake and eat it. I know all that.

I don't really know where I am going with this. Her meeting him, in my mind, is actually a good tester. If I don't allow the meeting, then our marriage is most likely screwed as she hasn't had the chance to end the fixation and see him without the rose tinted glasses (some of our chats after she called him I was brutal about him to her face and she acknowledged it all). Those glasses are off and so this is her chance to try and forget him properly.

If she sees him and still wants to carry on seeing him in some context, then there is a proper ultimatum and we are most likely done as well.

If she sees him, realises that he isn't all that and comes back and says, right NOW I am ready to try and reconcile, then we try it out. Possibly. I am still processing whether I want to.

I know I said I am a black and white person but this doesn't feel black and white at the moment.

@MorbidCuriosity your post came up while I was typing. At the moment this is all about the kids, that is completely right. But at the same time, despite the picture that has clearly been painted of my wife, I do care for her. If I hated everything about her it would be a hell of a lot easier.

Not sure if I missed any other specific questions. Might be back at the situation where I am triggering people. If so I do apologise, I hope you know it is not my intention.

posts: 170   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787486
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 9:55 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hi Ozzy ,fellow Uk and Aussie dual nationality here.
Sorry I am a pretty blunt talker, your wife is totally taking the piss here ,she thinks she has you by the balls because of the children and you are enabling her .
What you are doing may be financially better for you ,but your health will suffer with what she is doing to you ,and then your kids may be left not seeing their father at all.
I can’t see things getting any better for the both of you when you are letting her take the wheel in your marriage .
She has told you she has lost attraction to you ,why don’t you just believe her and tell her go get it from someone else and be done with all this shit ,and let you find yourself again.
You will find in time you can be happy again,sorry I just don’t see it with her .
Once you pull the plug she may very well realise what she had ,but no way would I take her back with the total disrespect she has shown you and your kids ,because believe me they will have picked up on it ,as I did as I was once them in a shitty marriage between my parents.
Sorry I can’t see this ever leaving you in what she has done

Sorry missed this one.

This is on the money other than the fact that she has me by the balls. She knows damn well that I am weighing things up. The fact that she is meeting with the other guy makes everyone here think she has complete control. It is one of those situations where I wish some of you could meet me right this second. I am more and more ready to pull the pin every day. The closure meeting is me giving her a chance to sort her mind out. Without that, she wouldn't be able to sort her mind out and things are pretty much done.

I don't want to be financially worse off, and I don't want my kids half the time.

My IC asked "What do you want?" and I said a wife that has feelings for me. That seems unlikely so I know the path I am on. I just don't want to rush it.

posts: 170   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787487
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 10:54 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hi Ozzy, I’m not interested in any kind of persuasion about the closure thing. I told my WH to have as much rope as he wanted to hang himself on, I wasn’t his keeper, which at heart is underlying your closure ‘approval’, IMO. I’m more than ever, however, questioning your WW’s lack of self awareness and curiosity about turning this into some useful learning opportunity and her continual abdication of responsibility to the great god Tik Tok. I’m glad communication is at least happening, although tbh I doubt the quality or depth of her introspection, which seems all about absolving her of responsibility in and for her life, where it feels she is laying the blame at the feet of both you and OM currently, even though she was the one to open the door to him whilst continuing to hide her instrumentality behind the screen of serendipity. Very happy also that you are feeling good about your IC and really commend your grasping of this as a learning opportunity.

[This message edited by Edie at 11:01 AM, Wednesday, April 19th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6639   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8787490
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 11:02 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hi Ozzy, I’m not interested in any kind of persuasion about the closure thing. I told my WH to have as much rope as he wanted to hang himself on, I wasn’t his keeper, which at heart is underlying your closure ‘approval’, IMO. I’m more than ever, however, questioning your WW’s lack of self awareness and curiosity about turning this into some useful learning opportunity and her continual abdication of responsibility to the great god Tik Tok. I’m glad communication is at least happening, although tbh I doubt the quality or depth of her introspection, which seems all about absolving her of responsibility in and for her life. Very happy also that you are feeling good about your IC and your grasping of this as a learning opportunity.

Thanks for this, I don't remember if I have quoted you before but I have really valued your measured contributions.

You are completely right that I am not her keeper. This is exactly why I was OK with her seeing him as a friend etc, as I have said many times now we are independent people and have never wanted to control each other. This was clearly just a step too far. Me trying to control won't work. She knows I want contact to end but I can't MAKE her.

And the second part is completely right. SHE needs to decide that she wants to save this marriage. I cannot do that for her. I can tell her the consequences (which I plan on doing if after this closure meeting she wants to carry on with contact) but then it is up to her whether this marriage is worth saving. So far she hasn't been nearly proactive enough, when it has been pretty clear how much time and effort I have been putting into looking at my own self improvement. This, more than the fact she slept with someone else, has made me question our relationship and makes me wonder if we can come back from this.

Thanks again.

As an aside, it would be really interesting to read the backstory of people who have contributed a lot. Maybe a link to each members story would be interesting? Halo's is the only one I have read but that is because it is recent.

posts: 170   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787492
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 11:13 AM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hi Ozzie

I actually edited my post to add this (probably cross-posted with you):


where it feels she is laying the blame at the feet of both you and OM currently, even though she was the one to open the door to him whilst continuing to hide her instrumentality behind the screen of serendipity

… as I think it’s completely true and her disingenuousness on the matter shows not only a lack of courage but even worse again deflects blame, so again trying to make herself look better by diminishing you, so probably has deep inside, no matter what she tries to project, a fragile sense of self. This is a real test of character and she’s currently not coming through it well. But there are, albeit small, signs of hope.

Re members’ stories, they can, if they’ve provided them, be found on their profiles.

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6639   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8787493
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 12:05 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

First and foremost, I think I can speak for nearly everyone on this forum when I say I don’t want to hear another mention of "I agreed to it" and "my wife has been totally honest."

You were coerced and you’ve revised your version of events in an effort to convince yourself and us otherwise. We’re not buying what you’re selling, sorry.

And no one is in the slightest bit convinced that your wife is being truthful because all the info you’ve presented— and our collective years of experience as survivors of infidelity— indicate otherwise. So just stop with your assurances that your wife is being honest and we should take everything she says at face value.

You will get no benefit from advice, or even talking about your situation, by continuing to avoid reality.

Second, your attitude of "if I don’t do this, my marriage is screwed" is what got you into this horrible situation in the first place.

Has it occurred to you that your marriage was already screwed when your wife emotionally checked out of it?

Have you considered the possibility that your "ends justify the means" approach to saving your marriage might actually doom it?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:00 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1944   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8787501
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 12:17 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Has it occurred to you that your marriage was already screwed when your wife emotionally checked out of it?

Absolutely.

Have you considered the possibility that your "ends justify the means" approach to saving your marriage might actually doom it?

100%.

posts: 170   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787503
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 12:59 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

but then it is up to her whether this marriage is worth saving.

I know what you meant by this (her actively and intentionally creating the conditions for the marriage to be worth saving) but pedant in me as ever, wants to point out, although I’m sure you’re becoming increasingly aware of this, that it’s up to you BOTH to consider whether the marriage is worth saving or not. Furthermore, she needs to be persuading you that she, not just it, is worth sticking around for (she should be doing the running in other words). I don’t think she realises the boot is on that foot yet but it feels you are getting there.

[This message edited by Edie at 1:17 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6639   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8787506
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bounceback67 ( new member #69336) posted at 1:10 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hi Ozzy,
Sorry for what your going through, I don't post often and I'm sure someone has made this point but here goes.
I don't think your Wife meeting this man is about CLOSURE l think it's an ULTIMATION
" If you want me here I am, I will leave my marriage but you must do the same ".
He has probably indicated that he cannot, but maybe if she does it in person he will see what he will be missing.
Either way Ozzy you are plan B, and you don't deserve that.
Good Luck

posts: 18   ·   registered: Jan. 5th, 2019
id 8787508
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 1:27 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

@edie Good point well made, but yes, I meant that her deciding it is worth saving is a requirement for me to consider whether it is worth saving, rather than the other way around. The last few months have been enlightening to say the least.

@bounceback - she doesn't want to leave this marriage (or at least doesn't want to lose the kids). So even if he was available (which he won't be) she wouldn't break up the family for him. If we were to break up, well that could be a different story but she knows that the stakes are high.

posts: 170   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787512
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 1:33 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Got a question or two for you Ozzy:

I said I expected her to meet up with him one more time and not just call him for "one last hurrah" (my words) and she actively looked disgusted. She won't be sleeping with him this Friday. She doesn't want to.


If she is so disgusted by him why would she ever want to see him ever again in this lifetime?

Are you saying that you are the one who instigated this meeting when you said "I said I expected her to meet up with him one more time and not just call him"?

If that is the case why on earth would you do that? What were you thinking?

posts: 280   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8787514
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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 1:42 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

I think you've come a long way from when you arrived and I am so happy to see it. You are looking out for yourself and your kids as well as seeing if R is possible.

The close out meeting is not ideal but it isn't the end of the world. She needs a mental shift for you to see if R is possible and maybe this will help you come to a conclusion. And her too. I do think that many people can only be romtantically attached to one person at a time. For your WW, I would strongly bet that her attachment to him has hurt her attachment to you. We see that frequently in affairs although it is not always the case. I wrote about the downward spiral of some marriages earlier and that dynamic can have the AP replace the BS. She needs to see that as a reality in many affairs. It may help her realize that her actions have hurt her mindset toward you and that it was not just a lack of feelings for you.

posts: 962   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8787517
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Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 1:50 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

I reiterate. Nothing has changed. If you were to win this and have a marriage it would not change her internal dialogue. She wants sex with others. You would have a hollow victory. If she stayed and got you to agree to open your marriage would you be able to live that way?

Two quotes to think about.
"When someone shows you who they are believe them the first time."
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome."

You need to be honest about how much you can, and cannot, tolerate in your life. I might have missed this, did your wife always want an open marriage? Have you known it for a long time? If she sprung this on you I think she was hoping to keep a marriage in name only while she and the AP had an affair. I think she was hoping you would fall in line with this by getting your own lover releasing her from having sex with you. If this is the case it is very underhanded and not kind at all. And what would happen if you fell in love with you AP to the point you wanted to marry her?

I think breaking rocks with a spoon would be easier than trying to fix your relationship.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 4231   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8787519
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 1:52 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

If she was truly disgusted by what she had done,she wouldn't ever want to see him again. He is a living embodiment of her shame. Yet she wants to "forget him proper."

You keep coming to us,with her excuses that defy any sort of common sense.

Have you read any of the threads here? Do you know how very common it is for the WS to try to bargain their BS into this closure meeting bullshit? How many ws, when talking after dday,look repulsed when discussing the AP, yet the entire time the affair is ongoing,just underground?

She needs to meet him to "sort her head out"? That's what IC and introspection is for.

This whole thing is ridiculous.

You don't believe she will have sex with him, because of the look on her face when you mentioned it,and because she said so. She..this woman who coerced you into allowing her to have sex with another man..she who was talking to him long before she told you she had feelings for him..she who helped this man destroy his family, and assisted him in lying to his wife, she who was still talking to him after you were 100% sure she as NC.

This woman that you believe is the poster girl for honesty..even though everyone who is not blinded by love and fear can tell she is a manipulative liar..is meeting this man to tell him she wishes things were different. That she will always love him. That maybe..someday.

And you're handing her her keys,and purse,and smiling as she drives to see him.

You are your own worst enemy.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6680   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787521
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Icedover84 ( member #82901) posted at 2:03 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Ozzy, maybe you have one more card up your sleeve, since you seem so insistent on allowing this meeting.

Do you have a way to either follow her, or have someone else (good friend or PI) follow her to the meetup discreetly and observe/document? If she meets up and they go for sex, you'll have your final answer.

posts: 75   ·   registered: Feb. 20th, 2023   ·   location: NY
id 8787522
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Gutpunch ( member #63088) posted at 2:20 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Ozzy

Tell the OM's wife. I think it is a moral and just thing to do.

This woman deserves to have some agency in her own life.

Once you do this, your WW will show you who she cares more about.

[This message edited by Gutpunch at 2:20 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

posts: 159   ·   registered: Mar. 19th, 2018   ·   location: AL
id 8787524
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 2:29 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

I go back to a couple of pages in where I was told I am probably in the wrong place. The concensus then (briefly) was my situation was so different to any other that I shouldn't post here.

That has very much changed to this is exactly the same as everyone elses situation.

I know there are a lot of similarities (the EA mostly which I am getting to grips with and we are putting an end to) but the whole open PA part does seem very different. Do any of the contributors have a link to a similar situation in that regard?

I feel like my whole post should have been more about the EA and trying to manage her want to carry on seeing him rather than anything to do with the physical side as that has completely taken over.

posts: 170   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787525
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