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Completely confused and all over the place

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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 2:42 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

You've said if you tell the OBS, your marriage is over. Why do you believe that? Is it because you believe the OBS will divorce him,and he will be single,and your wife will leave you for him? (You say she doesn't want to lose time with the kids,so that excuse doesn't hold up)

Is it because she said she would divorce you,if you tell his wife? What was her reasoning behind that? (She doesn't want to lose time with the kids..yet she's willing to be a part time mother, if you do the right thing and tell his wife, so that excuse doesn't hold up..again)

She has told you your marriage is over if the OBS knows. Why?

Has she told you that protecting her boyfriend is more important than being a full time mom, and not putting the kids through a divorce?

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:43 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787527
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 2:45 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

You appear to be a man who has moved from giving your wife approval to sleep with another man to save your marriage to a man willing to walk away unless she starts valuing you as a husband.
My question is this. How aware is she of this change in you? For instance, does she know that this meeting with her AP is likely to end her marriage?
I’m having a hard time understanding why a partner would risk a marriage for just a closure meetup. The only way that makes sense to me is that she still feels she is in control of you enough that her marriage is not at risk. What are your thoughts on this?
Ozzie, for the people that’s been here for a while, there are certain "truths" that have become rock solid over hundreds of stories. Trust me, your wife is an adulteress. Just the same as a single woman who has an affair with a married man. One of the "truths" that we have seen is that cheaters lie and lie and lie. Sometimes to themselves as much as their spouse. Your wife is a cheater and a liar. You need to to start weighing what she tells you for honesty. It is incredulous that she manipulated you into accepting that she sleep with another man. This was incredibly manipulative. Can you see that?
I’m worried that you will not be able to measure her behavior accurately enough to make decisions based on reality. Just trying to provide food for thought.

posts: 148   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8787528
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 3:21 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

I go back to a couple of pages in where I was told I am probably in the wrong place. The concensus then (briefly) was my situation was so different to any other that I shouldn't post here.

CORRECTION: You were not told that you were in the wrong place because your situation was "so different to any other." Some users suggested that you were in the wrong place if you didn't consider your wife's behavior to be infidelity and weren't motivated to get out of it.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:27 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1899   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8787533
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 3:29 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

You've said if you tell the OBS, your marriage is over. Why do you believe that? Is it because you believe the OBS will divorce him,and he will be single,and your wife will leave you for him? (You say she doesn't want to lose time with the kids,so that excuse doesn't hold up)

Is it because she said she would divorce you,if you tell his wife? What was her reasoning behind that? (She doesn't want to lose time with the kids..yet she's willing to be a part time mother, if you do the right thing and tell his wife, so that excuse doesn't hold up..again)

She has told you your marriage is over if the OBS knows. Why?

Has she told you that protecting her boyfriend is more important than being a full time mom, and not putting the kids through a divorce?

It is because of our ill thought through agreement. I realise I am completely the enemy here in this regard but I agreed to her sleeping with him. Part of that was facilitating an affair. I didn't give much thought to the other wife, I admit that and put my hands up. All indication is that she doesn't have a clue about any of this. I used the term blissfully unaware previously, which is maybe naive but to tell her is in complete contradiction to the agreement that I made with my wife. Maybe she wouldn't directly divorce me over doing it but it would fly in the face of the honesty that we had between each other in that period.

I’m having a hard time understanding why a partner would risk a marriage for just a closure meetup. The only way that makes sense to me is that she still feels she is in control of you enough that her marriage is not at risk. What are your thoughts on this?
Ozzie, for the people that’s been here for a while, there are certain "truths" that have become rock solid over hundreds of stories. Trust me, your wife is an adulteress. Just the same as a single woman who has an affair with a married man. One of the "truths" that we have seen is that cheaters lie and lie and lie. Sometimes to themselves as much as their spouse. Your wife is a cheater and a liar. You need to to start weighing what she tells you for honesty. It is incredulous that she manipulated you into accepting that she sleep with another man. This was incredibly manipulative. Can you see that?
I’m worried that you will not be able to measure her behavior accurately enough to make decisions based on reality. Just trying to provide food for thought.

The closure meetup in its own right isn't risking the marriage. She knows I feel it is for closure. It is down to her to have the meetup and rationalise her feelings after that. If she can't help but see him again after that then she will tell me and we will go from there.

(Again, the posts on here focus on the negative. It is like when someone does a 1 star tripadvisor review your eyes are drawn to it) The long and detailed conversations we have had about where we both stand are, I think, a good indicator that we might be able to work things out. But she needs her IC (next session tmw) so that she can try and make sense of her thoughts.

As said previously with Edie, I can see what has happened and where things have gone wrong (and my agreeing rather than at least giving myself more time is part of that)

posts: 168   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787534
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 3:49 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

I feel like my whole post should have been more about the EA and trying to manage her want to carry on seeing him rather than anything to do with the physical side as that has completely taken over.

It's fine. When it comes to how you go forward from here, it doesn't really make that much of a difference. Your WW still has to do the difficult and humbling work of figuring out what her actual values are and then developing boundaries around those values. You still have to figure out if what has happened is something you can live with going forward or if the love is gone. Whether it's an EA or a PA, the cheater needs to take ownership of her choices. That's just step one. We can't fix what we won't acknowledge.

I think it's okay for you to focus your efforts on why she allowed this guy into your lives to begin with. Where were her boundaries? In this, I think Shirley Glass's "walls and windows" technique would really benefit you. In her book, Not Just Friends, she described it as keeping a big, open window between you and your mate but putting up a big, imposing wall with potential interlopers. Not Just Friends would be a good starter for your WW to understand the slippery slope and where she started going wrong. It sounds like she's still immersed in her rationalizations and unwilling to see her actions as inappropriate and manipulative. When you put the shoe on the other foot here though, how does that look? Is there any scenario where you could have told her that you found her sexually unattractive but wanted to stay married for the kids while you explored this other relationship? Would any of that have have been acceptable?

Your WW needs to take 100% responsibility for not being faithful to you. If she had been 100% committed to the marriage and to you, if her core value of fidelity had been intact, NONE of this would have happened. That wall would have been up. Any issues she might have had with you would have been taken up with YOU and not someone else. We can't solve our problems with other people's genitals. If love, attraction, connection etc. were faltering in her relationship with you, the solution was leaning in toward YOU, not away with someone else. Problems in a marriage can be shared 50/50. But cheating is always 100% on the cheater, and this cheating began with your WW opening that window to someone else.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 7017   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8787537
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 3:50 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

but it would fly in the face of the honesty that we had between each other in that period.

I haven’t seen any evidence of a ‘we’ in this respect (of honesty). I would be interested to understand your WW’s honest and deep down objection to OBS being told. It’s clear she has a failure of empathy regarding you (and you for OBS), so I am guessing she has zero empathy for OBS, perhaps even some enmity for a rival. If she is only afraid of OBS being blindsided and blowing it open, thereby your WW being unable to stand up for the principle of ethical polyamory here, then it’s even clearer it all falls under the label of infidelity and she knows she is and was mate-poaching. The present tense remains operative until no contact.

[This message edited by Edie at 3:53 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6638   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8787538
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 3:58 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

I feel like my whole post should have been more about the EA and trying to manage her want to carry on seeing him rather than anything to do with the physical side as that has completely taken over.

Exactly what I think it is. The physical aspect does not bother you, hell that’s what open marriages are for. The ethical or moral aspect does not bother you. The only thing that bothers you is it turned emotional and she wants to keep seeing him. You would not be here if it was a Bam wham Thank you Ma’am kind of a situation.

Most BS’s here are looking at your situation from a monogamous marriage/ relationship lens. So they see you as this poor husband manipulated by your wife. They don’t see the "honesty" in your wife because they cannot fathom that a husband would be ok with his wife sleeping with another man and has given his blessing. There were no secrets there, I am sure it’s a well discussed " you scratch your itch and I will scratch mine" situation.

You still are not being blatantly honest about whether you agreed to an open marriage with the understanding that you would also seek other partners for physical relationship. That’s why you keep hinting your situation is not suitable for this forum.

Also people here cannot fathom that you are not concerned about the OBS. Opening up a marriage for physical relations does not bother you. It’s a big deal for people in monogamous relationships. So we empathize with the OBS.
Both your wife and you are guilty here, the OBS does not know she is a part of a couples open marriage fantasy. For that matter even the AP.


Also we cannot understand the meeting with OM for closure. From your POV it makes absolute sense. This was a sex only agreement on paper and you want to close the deal, stamped and done !

Have your tried the red*** forums on open relationships? More suitable there and your situation is very common. Turns out as human beings it is very difficult to compartmentalize physical and emotional connections.

posts: 281   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8787539
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 4:08 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

(Again, the posts on here focus on the negative. It is like when someone does a 1 star tripadvisor review your eyes are drawn to it) The long and detailed conversations we have had about where we both stand are, I think, a good indicator that we might be able to work things out. But she needs her IC (next session tmw) so that she can try and make sense of her thoughts.

It's negative for a reason, Ozzy. Your WW isn't the only person who matters in all of this. There's the OBS, who is still being victimized behind her back, there's you and the continued damage to your marriage, your kids and the threat to their family dynamic. It's not all about your WW's comfort and what makes her happy. Do you think that if the OBS knew what had happened that she'd be okay with some kind of "closure" meeting? Both you and your WW are going to have to somehow make peace with the way this innocent person has been victimized. At what point do you stop digging the hole?

It's not about "focusing on the negative". It's about what kind of accounting needs to happen to help you accomplish your goals. You seem to be under the impression that it's about being adversarial or trying to make you do something that's not in your best interest. But your BEST chance to save your marriage and your family dynamic is for your WW to take that first step toward responsibility for her choices. If you've got guilt about helping her make them, sure, you can afford to be patient and understanding, but in the end, she still has to make the choice to do better, and that starts with putting down the shovel. That unsuspecting woman is still being victimized and ALL of you have allowed it. The very least thing you can do to rectify that is to stop doing it.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 7017   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8787541
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 4:09 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Just because you agreed to it,in the beginning, doesn't mean you can't learn,and grow from the experience. You now have some hard earned wisdom when it comes to affairs. You also feel you deserve honesty. Yet you don't feel his wife who you have played a part in her abuse,deserves the same? Come on.

Was part of your agreement her breaking NC? Was part of the agreement that she could fall in love?

Here's something you haven't considered. You are teaching your wife that dishonesty,and affairs, are ok, as long as the spouse doesn't know.

Not a good lesson to teach a wife who is no longer attracted to you,and loves another man.

Try telling her you feel the obs needs to know the truth. If your wife is as ashamed and repulsed by her actions,as she claims to be, she will agree. If she argues, then you know her loyalties are still with OM. And your marriage is doomed.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:16 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787542
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Neptune ( new member #66445) posted at 4:16 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Of course she is going to still want to meet with the other man, because you are doing everything to make him look more attractive than you.

Your pacifist approach is not going to be attractive to her whatsoever. If anything, it will be the complete opposite and make the OM look much better than you.

Women are attracted to strength, that is why so many women are drawn to confidence and charisma like bugs to a light. It is instinctive.

Your are wanting her respect, yet you conduct yourself in such a way where she cannot respect you.

posts: 2   ·   registered: Oct. 8th, 2018
id 8787544
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 4:26 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Ozzy,have you told your wife about this site,and shown her this thread?

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787546
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 5:01 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Ozzy,have you told your wife about this site,and shown her this thread?

I am wondering if that might be a good idea actually. It is something I have started weighing up in my mind.

Though she will say that her situation is different....

posts: 168   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787551
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NotJustAnotherGuy ( new member #82949) posted at 5:03 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

It is because of our ill thought through agreement. I realise I am completely the enemy here in this regard but I agreed to her sleeping with him. Part of that was facilitating an affair.

Lets go with that middle school level logic and bs for a sec. Then what's your wife's excuse for HER not going to the OM's wife and confessing that she's been riding her husband? Is this going to be part of the closure too? I'm guessing not. Or as long as your wife and you finish your transaction with the OM, then everything is nicely done from your side?

posts: 14   ·   registered: Feb. 26th, 2023
id 8787552
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 5:10 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Do not show her this site. I can see her manipulating you to stop visiting. Even though you don’t agree with its members on what your responses should be, you have to admit that this site has been good for you.

posts: 148   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8787553
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 5:19 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Oh no. Do not show her this site. That's one of the worst things a BS can do with a ws like yours. It will be a disaster.

However, you just proved what most of us can see. You believe she's been completely honest with you. But you've not been honest with her. You've been here,day after day, for weeks, talking about her, and the affair. Yet,you've kept it a secret. You've hidden it from her. In this marriage based on honesty. Where you believe every illogical things she has said,and done. If you are keeping secrets, why would you believe she isn't doing the same?

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787554
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 5:33 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hellfire, I see what you’re trying to do with your post but I fear we may have seen the last of Ozzie. Hope not.

posts: 148   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8787555
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 5:37 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Ozzy...

I just went to another website forum. I don't know if I am allowed to mention it here. I apologize to the moderators if I am out of line here. I Googled "R....t Open Marriages".

I glanced at a few things they were talking about and this old traditional, conservative brain of mine could not comprehend thinking that way. However, if you posted your story there I am sure that they could probably give you a lot more of the type of advice you are seeking.

Again, Good Luck to you. You seem like a great guy and the type of person that I would like to have a beer with one day.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 5:52 PM, Wednesday, April 19th]

posts: 273   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8787556
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 6:24 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Hellfire, I see what you’re trying to do with your post but I fear we may have seen the last of Ozzie. Hope not.

He's been on the verge of leaving since he got here. If me pointing out his flawed thinking causes him to leave, it was simply the excuse he was looking for. If that's the case, he will be back, after he figures out the affair was restarted. But I don't think he's going anywhere. Though in deep denial, there's a part of him that seems to be coming out of his fog.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787564
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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 8:36 PM on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023

Ozzy, in one sense I think there have been a lot of people here with similar situations: the common "pick me dance" approach that people do when desperately trying to save their marriage. Yes, it true that few people openly tell their WS that they can have sex with someone else but many people do the pick me dance while they know their WS are still continuing the affair. And do a certain degree that is exactly what you did, just a bit more openly than most.

You are mostly out of that mindset now and should feel good about that. Yes, you're giving in a bit with this "goodbye meeting" but many WS have that meeting anyway, whether the BS knows or approves or not. It's not the end of the world. The underlying issue though is serious... that your WW is still not fully accountable for the damage she caused the marriage and still somewhat pining for posom. But again, those two issues are not unusual for affairs. Quite a few WS take some time to come to their senses. And of course, some never do.

posts: 943   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8787572
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Freedomfighter ( new member #79609) posted at 1:02 AM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

Ozzy,

I have followed your story from the beginning. First of all, I thought my situation was unique too. I eventually found out it was not, and you will too. The thing is, every relationship has unique features; however, basic human lust/desires and the ways people protect those things, regardless of the object, isn't unique. "Nothing is new under the sun."

You need to confront her and tell her your true feelings if you want the marriage. It could result in divorce, but it is the only way to possibly save your marriage I believe. She can only respect you if you respect yourself and take that step in being firm and true to you. Your current wait and see strategy is doomed to fail.

In my case, she emotionally checked out, and only when I cut her off and said enough did she ask to reconcile. For me, we had no kids, so no thank you. You said you'd do the same if no kids, and I get it, I have them now too.

I wish you all the best.

Happily remarried with 3 awesome kids

posts: 21   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2021   ·   location: USA
id 8787602
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