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Completely confused and all over the place

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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 8:13 AM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

I meant that her deciding it is worth saving is a requirement for me to consider whether it is worth saving, rather than the other way around.

FFS, why are you having to 'compete' for your spouse?

If you have to 'compete'/'fight' for your spouse, you have already lost. The spouse should not even be thinking about 'comparisons', 'alternatives', etc. Even in poly relationships (no expert here, but there seems to be a couple of 'ploy' threads) the primary is never in competition, and the spouse will drop the alternative(?) like a hot potato if the primary(?) requests it.

This is based on mutual respect (which you do not have from your WW), which you can then build Trust with. Right now, you have squat.

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 1131   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8787626
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 10:04 AM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

This polyamory continues to feel like a red herring tbh. As well as all the other things I mentioned much earlier in this thread possibly at root cause for your WW’s sexual discontent/ time of life issues, I would contend, might also be the issue of daily familiarity breeding not so much contempt but a certain boredom in the bedroom. It’s a bit of an evolutionary design fault in a way. You’ve now got all the bonding hormone oxytocin optimised to bond and therefore keep care of your offspring but the very familiarity that can keep us bonded can be a bit of a killer in the bedroom as I say. So I’m surmising it’s not that she’s not sexually attracted to you, it’s more the thrill of the biochemical cocktail offered by the novelty/ mystery of the new that feels so ‘alive’, PEA, dopamine and the like kicking in as a bit of a drug high that has an intense hit compared to the [wonderful] but steady drip of oxytocin.

So I’d look again at the oxytocin health of the marriage, which sounds actually quite good, Ozzy (if you’re still there). If there’s also deep physical affection and fulfilled ‘attention bids’ (look up those, they’re crucial), then her dissatisfaction, not with you, but with her own sexuality is something that is hopefully relatively easily addressed, within the marriage, I would say, and your 180 is part of that process. But it’s not something you should be convincing her of, you have to keep with your 180 for your sake and not for that reason.

Edited to add that, even if it doesn’t feel like it (and good on you for keeping coming back, you obviously don’t lack courage) SI is your safe place and it would be very foolish to share it with your WW at this stage. Perhaps possibly when she is a FWH, but not now. You and your WW are both allowed to share confidentially with an IC, and that confidentiality is crucial to being able to explore one’s feelings; for me, SI has the same function, so I don’t agree with Hellfire’s analogy though I understand she was trying to show there was limits to full transparency/ honesty. Being on SI is part of your 180 journey to understanding yourself and your situation. It’s research and seeking other perspectives. And that is currently a solo endeavour as you and your WW are currently not in the same team.

[This message edited by Edie at 11:14 AM, Thursday, April 20th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6638   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8787629
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 12:59 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

I'm still here.

Abalone - thanks, good post and something that is being missed a lot I think.

Edie - spot on as always. She is having some sort of breakdown at the moment and she is starting to understand that. A chat at 4am seemed to make something click about the hurt I am feeling. I'll write more tomorrow after the meet up.

As for a couple of other posts, people are entitled to their opinions. I understand it's a forum and I will take the good with the bad, I have thick skin!

So basically she has no interest in sleeping with him again but wants to remain friends. I said that's not possible due to the trauma I am suffering. She is gutted but understands (gutted as she hasn't done anything "wrong" as far as our agreement goes). She is going to see him and chat about how they fucked up their friendship but they need to properly cut ties.

She will report back and if she says she can't handle not seeing him then we have a major problem that we will need to deal with. But hopefully that will be that and we can start the long process of R.

Thanks for the help everyone. A rocky road but I'm in such a better place than on page 1.

[This message edited by Ozzy1788 at 1:19 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

posts: 168   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787638
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 1:38 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

Not sure which ‘friendship’ she thinks they’ve fucked up, as didn’t seem to be one there. Anyhow, perhaps a moot point, am glad things continue to progress. She’s outnumbered by boys in your family, interesting how that might affect her also. 😊

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6638   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8787642
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 2:08 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

They need to meet,in person,to talk about how having an affair messed up their friendship, and they can't talk anymore.

There's nothing to talk about. Most fully functioning adults understand affairs mess up friendships,and when it's over,it's all over.

But..ok. Let's buy this ridiculous excuse she has sold you. This chat can't be done on the phone? Why not? Why does she have to physically see him again?

The answer is clear. The reasons she wants to meet him again, is because what she wants to do is SEE him.

I wonder,had his wife found out, and he went immediate NC with your wife,as he should,how would she find closure? Would she find ways to contact him,that his wife may not know about? Would she insist he talk to her about why it's over, despite his wife's wishes..and his? And if he stuck to NC, and refused,which by everything you said about him,that's exactly what he would do..how would she get the closure she claims she needs? She'd have to work on herself,and move on. Which is what she should be doing for her own husband, and her marriage. And herself.

She's like a heroin addict,looking for another hit. He's her supply, and you're her enabler.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:10 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787649
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 2:43 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

What about your marriage agreement, Ozzy? You know, the one that neither of you were coerced to accept?

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1899   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8787653
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 5:30 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

So basically she has no interest in sleeping with him again but wants to remain friends. I said that's not possible due to the trauma I am suffering. She is gutted but understands (gutted as she hasn't done anything "wrong" as far as our agreement goes). She is going to see him and chat about how they fucked up their friendship but they need to properly cut ties.

How does his wife feel about that? Is she okay with your WW keeping a "friendship" with her husband after the emotional and physical affair they've already had?

You know, it's one thing to not want to get involved in someone else's marital relationship. I get that. For some people, exposure asks too much of them; self-interest, internal boundaries, etc. And even though there is already one might argue that you are already complicit in your WW's transgressions against the OBS, there comes with betrayal a certain amount of paralysis and shock. But this? How is it possible that neither one of you can muster up enough empathy to imagine what woman's feelingsz might be regarding some tender parting-of-the-ways scene between her husband and his mistress?

But hopefully that will be that and we can start the long process of R.

The process of R has already started and you guys are complicating it in order to give your WW one last hit off the crack pipe of adultery. THAT's what we're trying to tell you. You're never going to be able to look at her and not know that she did this, that she was so supremely selfish that she couldn't work up enough empathy for either you or the OBS to NOT do this. That becomes your starting point. Supremely selfish, zero empathy, and no integrity to speak of. That's like taking your starting line and putting it ten miles in the other direction. If she were a serial killer, that's like letting her get one final victim.

I know you're probably so overwhelmed with all of this, but there is still time to say 'no'. For the sake of your own goals, for the sake of the R you want to have, you can set this boundary so that you don't have to know how far she was willing to go or how far you were willing to let her. You can spare yourself at least some pain. There's no such thing as "closure" in the manner that's being described. Closure comes from within.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 7019   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8787686
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NotJustAnotherGuy ( new member #82949) posted at 5:57 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

How does his wife feel about that? Is she okay with your WW keeping a "friendship" with her husband after the emotional and physical affair they've already had?


Nothing's going to change. IF OP was ok with keeping the other wife in the dark after encouraging his wife to sleep with the OM, he sure as heck isn't going to break a sweat for them to continue only being 'friends'.

How is it possible that neither one of you can muster up enough empathy to imagine what woman's feelingsz might be regarding some tender parting-of-the-ways scene between her husband and his mistress?


It's been pretty clear that both Ozzy and his wife have put their own self interest above anyone else; His wife for the preservation of the emotional and physical affair, and him for the chance of trying to please his wife to the extend of her not leaving him.

I know you're probably so overwhelmed with all of this, but there is still time to say 'no'.


If he was NOT going to go back on his word of letting his wife sleep with the OM, he's not going to risk upsetting his wife by saying no now.

Look Ozzy, I know you don't want to hear this and honestly outside of feeling bad for you I don't know you from beans however here's my take - from personal experience - on what's ahead of you:

- You wife will do everything to try and convince OM to take her and leave his wife at this 'closure' meeting.
- OM knows a good thing while he's got it so you can bank on the typical - 'I will always love you and think of the times we were together no matter how long it takes for us to sort out our relationship' and crap like that.
- She will NOT stop thinking about him - will continue the friendship (i.e. the emotional affair)
- Brace yourself for upcoming asks to meet him - birthdays, holidays, just a movie - but she'll tell you about them before hand cuz she's honest
- Tell you that since YOU let her be physical with him, she can't go back to not being physical now; and you've already started hearing the beginnings of that
- Meet him in person because the hurt is too much and confess to you - assuming she still wants to appear honest and manipulate you - that it went too far and they 'kissed'.

I can imagine the ego rush the OM is on right now. He's told your wife all she's going to get out of this 'relationship' is a long term sex and yet she keeps coming back to him and he knows you're game to whatever next they come up with...

posts: 14   ·   registered: Feb. 26th, 2023
id 8787689
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 6:38 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

How does his wife feel about that? Is she okay with your WW keeping a "friendship" with her husband after the emotional and physical affair they've already had?

Ozzy, I was getting off your back about contacting the OBS because it was a total waste of time, but CT brings up a good point. If your wife feels so guilty about sleeping with him (as she alleges) then how can she possibly justify remaining in contact or being friends with him while his wife remains in the dark? Will they be open about their friendship or conduct it in secret, just like they did their affair.

There's currently a post in General titled "Socializing With AP Before I Knew." That should give you a glimpse of the type of mindfuck and rage OBS will experience when she eventually finds out what her husband was doing with his good friend... your wife.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1899   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8787699
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Icedover84 ( member #82901) posted at 6:38 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

Ozzy... go with her to this meetup. Don't allow the two of them out of your sight at any point. If she agrees to that, you might be in good shape. If she does not, then you know it's over.

posts: 72   ·   registered: Feb. 20th, 2023   ·   location: NY
id 8787700
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 6:55 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

Where is this meeting supposed to take place? I assume a public place. Tell her you want to go. That you will even sit at another table. But you're going. Her response will tell you a lot.

Also,I don't know if you've mentioned it, but where did they have sex? A hotel? His home? I have a reason for asking,but I'd like you to tell us before I comment further.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787702
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NotJustAnotherGuy ( new member #82949) posted at 6:59 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

Ozzy... go with her to this meetup. Don't allow the two of them out of your sight at any point. If she agrees to that, you might be in good shape. If she does not, then you know it's over.


I'm pretty sure his wife would use the excuse of him being there as the reason why the two of them couldn't be honest with each other's feelings - i.e. reason for a second closure meeting. Maybe if he just waited in the car or happened to end up in the same neighborhood of the meetup - say parked right near their cars; assuming he knows where they are meeting.

Now me, given what's at stake here, I'd get a PI or a friend to be there and observe their interactions. Lots of hand holding, kisses, staring at each other with tears? I would want to find out IF she ended up going to where she said they would and IF they left anywhere together. Ozzy you might say this isn't trusting her but given where you are, I'd suggest this would actually work towards bolstering your trust in her. But I think Ozzy is insistent on playing the honesty card so lets see how she behaves and what she ends up telling him.

posts: 14   ·   registered: Feb. 26th, 2023
id 8787704
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 7:01 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

I had some of my best sex just hanging out with an ex saying "we shouldn't be doing this" the whole time (while I was single and she wasn't in a LTR/exclusive relationship). Your wife is almost 100% going to have sex with him and say something like "it just happened" or "one thing led to another". No in person chat for NC unless you are also there for it.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 7:32 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2599   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8787706
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 8:49 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

About to go to bed as very tired so will pick up on some of this stuff tmw.

But Hellfire:

Also,I don't know if you've mentioned it, but where did they have sex? A hotel? His home? I have a reason for asking,but I'd like you to tell us before I comment further.

First time was an airbnb, second was a hotel. I'm intrigued.

I'll try to explain again tmw but I am not in the slightest worried that anything will happen between them tmw. I've just had a slight revelation reading your latest responses but want to sleep on it to try and word it correctly.

Thanks for the concern though, it's much appreciated.

posts: 168   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8787729
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 8:58 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

gutted as she hasn't done anything "wrong" as far as our agreement goes)

🤷‍♀️ 373 posts later and she still apparently hasn’t done anything ‘wrong’…sigh

- You, Ozzy, continue wilfully to ignore any questions about empathy or implications for OBS and her empty nest also deserted by OM.

- You agreed to TRY with open marriage . Full stop. You’re allowed to change your mind.

- your WW with her ‘gutted-ness’ is still wholly thinking only about herself. Her gutted-ness is not your responsibility. it’s unfair of her to be passing it on. Please don’t take it on. It’s all a bit pouty anyway.

- You are her husband, not her brother or flatmate. Don’t get confused on the matter.

they just want the escape…

On top of others’ misery and at others’ expense.

[This message edited by Edie at 9:09 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6638   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8787731
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 9:17 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

Ozzy, have you read any threads here? Have you not learned how utterly devastating infidelity is? How can you and your wife continue to dismiss the fact that she is helping destroy another woman's marriage? You both seem to believe your wife is entitled to another woman's husband. You seem hyper focused on an agreement you made,uner coercion. Yet, there's a completely innocent woman who didn't agree to any of this. Do you have a conscious?

You said your wife got mad when you mentioned that the OBS should know. Because you agreed to it. However, she agreed to end the affair,and go NC, and has now renegotiated that. Why aren't you allowed to change the agreement?

Your wife is actively causing another person harm. Yes, the OM is completely responsible for his behavior. But your wife is completely responsible for hers. She is currently being a terrible human being. If you love her,why are you standing there,and helping her soil herself?

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned..she wanted to have sex with this man,after months of an EA..and a huge part of her is thrilled she managed to get you to allow it. I can also promise you,as a woman,she will eventually..once the shine has worn off of her affair..be hurt that you were so willing to give her to another man. That you had so little respect for,not only yourself, but for her, that you would be ok with another man using her. It will breed resentment. And cheaters who are unremorseful, don't work on themselves,and are resentful towards their BS,have other affairs.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787738
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bob7777 ( member #79867) posted at 10:16 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

Ozzy, you're still in denial, sort of. You were coerced into the agreement with your wife having an affair with her friend. Even if you gave your consent then you see now how wrong it was, not only wrong for you but also for OBS. You feel obligated to the terms of agreement, but the thing about consent is that you can withdraw it. If you were coerced into this whole mess, and you were, you had no idea what you signed up for, you were in panic, you didn't research the topic. You just did it because you thought you had to do it to save your relationship. Now you see how wrong it was, how wrong it was for the OBS. Maybe if you research that topic before you had made the condition to include OBS, that her partner had to tell her which had been the right move. You now see not only how wrong it was for you but also how your decisions wronged OBS. You not only made a coerced 'decision' for your life but also one which included OBS who never consented to you to do this for her. At this point you should withdraw the consent you've given previously and tell OBS. I guess you feel guilty and ashamed because of this realization but you should act and not shy away.

posts: 106   ·   registered: Feb. 1st, 2022
id 8787744
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BetterNowReally ( new member #77292) posted at 10:18 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

oops. wrong thread. thanks lurkingsoul for kindly pointing out my error. I think I am reading too many threads!

[This message edited by BetterNowReally at 11:54 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

Life is hard; get a helmet. Eric from Boy Meets World

posts: 24   ·   registered: Feb. 11th, 2021   ·   location: Pacific Northwest
id 8787745
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 10:28 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

What? But,he told her not to do certain things with OM, and she agreed. He said she abided by that. So..??

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8787749
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 10:37 PM on Thursday, April 20th, 2023

BetterNowReally: I believe you are on the wrong thread. The person who talked about his wife's reddit post is a different person. It's not ozzy. It's Piso.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 10:38 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

posts: 457   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8787752
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