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My Wife Had an Intense, Highly Deceptive Affair, Part II

Topic is Sleeping.
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 3:48 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

I think you need to be very clear on your definition of an emotional affair.

Many,many people consider having a flirtation with a member of the opposite sex,especially when messages are exchanged and deleted, and hidden from your spouse, it's most definitely an emotional affair.

Love doesn't have to be involved at all.

Also,at the very least,she was getting ego kibbles from these other men. She enjoyed it. That's emotional.

And she hid it from you.

And she was content with continuing to hide it from you,until she knew she would be caught due to a polygraph.

You've been very confident this was her first affair. It sounds like she's been having emotional affairs through your relationship.

We know she reads your thread. I think that's why she cancelled her dinner plans.

posts: 4669   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8742671
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 4:33 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

I think you need to be very clear on your definition of an emotional affair.

Many,many people consider having a flirtation with a member of the opposite sex,especially when messages are exchanged and deleted, and hidden from your spouse, it's most definitely an emotional affair.

Love doesn't have to be involved at all.

Also,at the very least,she was getting ego kibbles from these other men. She enjoyed it. That's emotional.

And she hid it from you.

And she was content with continuing to hide it from you,until she knew she would be caught due to a polygraph.

You've been very confident this was her first affair. It sounds like she's been having emotional affairs through your relationship.

We know she reads your thread. I think that's why she cancelled her dinner plans.

I spoke with a polygraph examiner and realize you’re right on EAs—impossible to test for without many different questions. And it’s not a top priority for me.

Ultimately, I don’t trust that I have the full story of *this* A—she claims to have given me everything on March 18 and I don’t trust that she has. I need her to essentially confirm the list of individual meetings with AP under polygraph so I can be sure that’s the extent. I can’t live with the idea that worse things may have happened (more frequency, sex in our house, etc.)

I also need to confirm that it was the only time she had sexual activity outside our M.

For a third question, I’m considering having her verify the extent of the bad mouthing, asking her about the morning after pill, or asking her if she has had any sexual communication in the past during our M.

I think the first two are critical and the next three are nice to have.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8742679
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numb&dumb ( member #28542) posted at 4:35 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

She also clearly feels her positive efforts aren’t being rewarded or acknowledged. I try to acknowledge the positives and tell her I appreciate them, but if I don’t mention one, she get passive aggressive until she shows her entitlement. So in the instance of the "I love you," she let it fester for two days that it was bothering her and then pointed out how she said a nice thing to me and I didn’t reciprocate or show her I cared that she did.

These are things I used to say to my wife when she wondered why I did not say ILY back. Feel free to leverage. Some are highly confrotational, use at your own discretion.

"I will say it back when I can believe your words."

"Stop lying. You don't believe that."

"Thank you."

When the unevitable, "I never stopped loving you."

"Love to me is a verb. Your actions during your EA/PA were clearly not loving to me.

If she said that she wasn't thinking about you at all during the A (BTW very common WS response).

"That is why I don't believe you never stopped loving me during your A. Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is. If you were indifferent to me you did not love me."

So those are if you want to engage. I've found the better to acknowledge she said something by nodding or saying yes and then removing yourself from the coversation.

Her little nips at your heels are an attempt to get a response from you. If you get mad, cry, etc. She knows that you are still invested emotionally in the relationship.

Indifference is what you want to reach and convey. You could care less, etc. This helps you by detaching, but also makes the severity of her actions clear.

To her it is a game. The only way to win at that game is to not play.


ETA:fixed some grammar.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 4:49 PM, Thursday, June 30th]

Dday 8/31/11. EA/PA. Lied to for 3 years.

Bring it, life. I am ready for you.

posts: 5050   ·   registered: May. 17th, 2010
id 8742681
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 4:51 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

For a third question, I’m considering having her verify the extent of the bad mouthing, asking her about the morning after pill, or asking her if she has had any sexual communication in the past during our M.

Bad mouthing is not really testable at all. Too much opinion. eg. Is it bad mouthing to mention that your snoring kept her up or is it just a statement of fact.

Morning after pill works. She either did or did not.

Last one you need to define what sexual communication is without wiggle room. Eg. (no politics)and I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

The bad mouthing really isn't what is going to make or break your marriage. Your WW has enough issues, stick to the make or break ones. I know it bothers you, but if she gets her thinking straight that will self correct.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:37 AM, Friday, July 1st]

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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 5:05 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

"Have you had any form of sexual communication with any man other than your husband, and OM, during your marriage?"

"Did you have sex in the marital home,with anyone other than your husband?"

Personally, I think the last one is critical. Having sex with another person in the home you share with your spouse, is the ultimate disrespect. It doesn't get worse than that. All the badmouthing in the world can't compare to that. That is a level that most cheaters,including serial cheaters,won't go to. If she did bring him into the house, that says an awful lot.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:07 PM, Thursday, June 30th]

posts: 4669   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8742683
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 5:10 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

Bad mouthing is not really testable at all. Too much opinion. eg. Is it bad mouthing to mention that your snoring kept her up or is it just a statement of fact.

Morning after pill works. She either did or did not.

Last one you need to define what sexual communication is without wiggle room. Eg. Clinton and I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

The bad mouthing really isn't what is going to make or break your marriage. Your WW has enough issues, stick to the make or break ones. I know it bothers you, but if she gets her thinking straight that will self correct.

The badmouthing one is specific to the bad things she said about me to AP. I had her list them out (below). So she'd read them to the polygraph examiner, sign the document, then confirm that it is truthful and forthcoming to the best of her knowledge. I've limited it to only what she said about me to AP.

Also, you're right, it's probably not critical, so that would be the first to be cut if I need to cut anything. Ultimately, I need to know if the sexual contact she told me that she had with AP is conclusive *and* that she hasn't had previous sexual activity with others in our marriage. Everything else on top is gravy.

**

5.Please list and elaborate on all the times you bad mouthed or down talked [BH] to [AP].

a.In January I told [AP] that [BH] was needy.
b.In January I told [AP] that I had to fake my orgasms with [BH].
c.I communicated that I was annoyed that my son kept getting forgotten on the bus by [BH] and his family.
d.I communicated to [AP] that [BH] and I argued several times during the holidays.
e.I communicated to [AP] that I was upset when [BH] provided grammatical corrections for an email to the PTA.
f.I communicated to [AP] that [BH] would be bored at [restaurant] if he was invited.
g.I communicated to [AP] that I did not want [BH] to be in the same room or at the same bar as [AP] because suspicions would arise.
h.I communicated to [AP] that [BH] was "off my guest" list when he made me angry at [restaurant2] on March 15.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8742685
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 5:11 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

These are things I used to say to my wife when she wondered why I did not say ILY back. Feel free to leverage. Some are highly confrotational, use at your own discretion.

"I will say it back when I can believe your words."

"Stop lying. You don't believe that."

"Thank you."

When the unevitable, "I never stopped loving you."

"Love to me is a verb. Your actions during your EA/PA were clearly not loving to me.

If she said that she wasn't thinking about you at all during the A (BTW very common WS response).

"That is why I don't believe you never stopped loving me during your A. Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is. If you were indifferent to me you did not love me."

So those are if you want to engage. I've found the better to acknowledge she said something by nodding or saying yes and then removing yourself from the coversation.

Her little nips at your heels are an attempt to get a response from you. If you get mad, cry, etc. She knows that you are still invested emotionally in the relationship.

Indifference is what you want to reach and convey. You could care less, etc. This helps you by detaching, but also makes the severity of her actions clear.

To her it is a game. The only way to win at that game is to not play.

That's good stuff. Thanks.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8742686
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 5:19 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

"Have you had any form of sexual communication with any man other than your husband, and OM, during your marriage?"

"Did you have sex in the marital home,with anyone other than your husband?"

Personally, I think the last one is critical. Having sex with another person in the home you share with your spouse, is the ultimate disrespect. It doesn't get worse than that. All the badmouthing in the world can't compare to that. That is a level that most cheaters,including serial cheaters,won't go to. If she did bring him into the house, that says an awful lot.

Agreed. I think if she did have sex with AP in our home, she'd never tell me, so the only way to get that answer would be through a polygraph.

My suspicion comes from her story about the screen door. He wanted to see her one night in late-Jan or early Feb. and she told him she couldn't get out of the house as I was upstairs sleeping and could wake up. She was so desperate that she popped the screen out of the downstairs window and climbed through it (thinking that was quieter than going out backdoor??). She claims he told her she was crazy and to get back inside, not wanting to risk her going out while I was home.

For me, that story demonstrates she'd have done anything he wanted her to do, including having sex in our house. The only thing stopping it from happening was him not wanting to do anything so risky.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8742688
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WalkinOnEggshelz ( Administrator #29447) posted at 11:07 PM on Thursday, June 30th, 2022

When you talked to the polygrapher did he discuss lines of questioning with you and help you come up with questions?

Typically you will get only 4 questions. Those questions can not be subjective. It is a "yes" or "no" question only.

I would honestly be skeptical if he is allowing a long line of questioning and having her sign a document after stating the specific things she said.

It doesn’t work if the questions can left up to interpretation.

I have personal experience with a polygraph.

Me: WS late 40’s
Him: BH (HoldingTogether)
D Day: 7/24/2010
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

posts: 15469   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: Texas
id 8742773
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 5:58 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

Big Update--this will be a long post as I'll try to cover everything descriptively.

Yesterday was a whirlwind. My WW was picking a fight on and off all day regarding the dinner with her friend--her position was it wasn't fair to her to give up the only potential friend in our town as every other person she knew has ghosted her post-A. I didn't disagree with her, all I could do was share how I felt about it and leave the decision to her. But she kept picking at it, trying to make me tell her that she didn't have permission to go; which I refused to engage in.

We had MC in the evening and sat through a largely quiet dinner at a restaurant beforehand. We arrived at MC early and she engaged again in the car as we waited outside--again citing how unfair this was to her.

We went inside for the most explosive (and probably best) MC session yet. We nibbled around the edges at the general problems we're having with our conflicts: parent/child dynamic, staking ground, blame shifting, defensiveness, etc. We went through an example from my WW's work for 10-15 minutes and my WW kept trying to deflect back to me and the MC kept probing as to why she was trying to do that.

Then we got to the friend dinner and dug in on it. Again, my WW kept trying to deflect--at one point when asked a question about the dinner, she yelled out: "Well he wants me to take a polygraph!" and I couldn't help but laugh--the MC got an up close examination on what it's like to have a conflict with my WW with her "whataboutisms." The MC kept her cool though and was impressive to watch honestly--she kept things on topic and kept probing deeper. It was quite something to see--my wife yelling and being defensive, sparring with the MC, who kept her cool and focus.

Eventually she got to something fairly interesting--the root of the conflict on the dinner. On the surface, the MC got my WW to agree that attending the dinner was bad for the M, but perhaps selfishly good for her. So why was my WW so locked in on it? Control. My WW said she felt that not going to the dinner would be giving me control over her and every fiber of her body was telling her to not allow that to happen.

Even though I wasn't asking her to not go to the dinner, she felt that me thinking it was the *right* thing for her to do meant she was compelled to do the opposite.

The MC dug deeper, asking her about those feelings of being controlled...which of course led right back to my WW's father. She talked about how controlled she felt as a child by her father; and that when she disappointed her father, he would give her the silent treatment, often for days. And she learned to adapt to that by toughening her exterior--not letting her father see he was hurting her with his silence. She'd never give in; right or wrong, she never wanted him to think he was winning and she was under his thumb. The MC said that was a common feeling when parents use the silent treatment on children--and it's especially cruel; psychologically similar to a child who learns not to cry when he/she is physically hit.

My WW doesn't want the rest of her life to feel like she's being controlled. The MC pointed out that I was not controlling her in this instance--but recognized the strong pull in her mind to *feeling* like I was. The MC said she would need to rewire those feelings of being controlled all the time to have a healthy relationship.

The MC turned to me and told me I was doing an admirable job trying different approaches out and that ultimately, as long as I'm communicating how I feel, especially on the big stuff, I'm doing all I can. She suggested I not change what I'm doing. Hearing that was frustrating as it's difficult for me to be told I'm doing everything I can do and still living the worst hell of my life.

I'd say I spent the first 60% of the session feeling more and more down on my WW. Her behavior and the things she was saying were truly breathtaking at times. I feel like I barely spoke the last half of the session though--just listening and absorbing the things she was saying. I transitioned from anger and disappointment toward her into empathy. I saw her as this wounded, hurt animal, cornered and entirely confused. She was fighting, but it was primal--the alternative was flight and she didn't want to run, so she just kept throwing blind haymakers at the MC as they went back and forth.

None of this was about the dinner, it was all about her trying to avoid a lifetime of feeling controlled by a man and that was the *only* vantage point she was capable of seeing it from.

We went back home and she was largely quiet, still dug in as a victim. But I felt horrible for her in those moments. We were locked in a fight that was entirely unproductive as we were fighting over different things. I wanted her to know how her actions were hurting me and she felt that my feelings were hurting her. We are living two different realities.

I wanted to retreat to another room, but I instead tried to take the temperature down in the room. I pointed out that we were spiraling into negativity over dinners and polygraphs and not at all focused on healing ourselves or our marriage. I suggested some wine, a TV show, a bath--anything to give us a little bit of a bond to remind us of why we're still trying to make this work.

She agreed on the wine (lol), but said nothing else. I opened a bottle and poured us glasses. I played a romantic song and asked her to dance with me in the kitchen. We danced and cried. We went to the couch and sat largely in silence, sipping our wine. I was comfortable with the silence--I was relaxing.

After nearly an hour, she did it again--re-engaged on the dinner. This time digging into how unfair the dynamic is between us that I can go out with friends and family and she has no friends or nearby family. I was surprised and decided to head upstairs rather than engage again.

I sent her a text from upstairs, telling her that she badmouthed me all over town, fucked and sucked another man, and is now criticizing me for trying to get my mind off things by going to a dinner with my sister--her cruelty and selfishness was shocking. I then went to sleep.

About 60-90 minutes later she came up and I woke up--I was really out of it in the moment and don't remember exactly what was said by either of us, but I recall thinking she probably came up to apologize to me, but instead she was angry with me over my text. I was dazed and confused as to what was happening and she went back downstairs.

I collected myself and went downstairs to confirm that she was not apologizing, but instead angry with me over the text. She confirmed that. So I told her this dynamic wasn't working at all--I couldn't relate to her behavior or thinking--at a minimum, we need to explore what a temporary separation would look like.

She got hyper defensive, first saying she's not moving out and I should go. I calmly said no. She quickly caved and then said there's nothing available in our town and she can't go anywhere, so I told he we'd find something nearby--she said she refused to leave the town. I explained how that might not be practical. She caved; then she said she wouldn't leave the kids with me and I told her we would share custody 50/50. I then disengaged and went back up to bed.

She came up crying and cuddled into me apologizing for how she was acting. We talked for an hour and I explained that she has two paths. She either get on the "coaster" and prioritize our marriage in every decision she makes, trumping everything else. And all her other efforts need to be on examining herself and fixing all the broken things inside her. Or, we separate and focus on ourselves first and then look to reconnect in a couple of months if that's what we want.

We went to bed and woke up early, resuming the same conversation. Ultimately, she wasn't sure she was capable of prioritizing the marriage first right now. I suggested that was an answer then. She agreed.

She left the bedroom and I stayed and briefly cried, absorbing this new reality--I collected myself after a couple of minutes and she came back, also crying. She said she "couldn't risk losing me over her stupid state of mind." I told her she wasn't losing me and that this could be good for both of us. We got the kids off to camp an returned back home.

We then had probably our best conversation yet. She explained how the dinner to her felt like I wanted her not to go (to be hurtful to her) and I was manipulating and controlling her by making her feel like she shouldn't go. She knew that wasn't what was happening and knew it was incredibly unfair, but that's how she's often felt when in conflicts throughout her life. It sounded to me like she was projecting something she does, but she said she never does that either, recognizes I never do it, and doesn't know why she thinks so low of me during our conflicts. Every conflict is a chance for her to win, so she purposely isn't entirely transparent on how she's feeling because she feels like if she is transparent, I'll use what she's telling me to control the outcome.

She felt silly dying on a sword over a dinner with an acquaintance; risking her marriage over something she doesn't even care about it. It was all principle to her--she felt like I was trying to hurt and control her and she didn't want that to happen. She acknowledged that she sees it clearly now and her thinking over the last two days has been bizarre. She had convinced herself that I'd never allow her to go out to a dinner with anyone ever again. She goes to these extremes with me as a super villain.

The conversation ended with her saying she is going to get on the coaster and prioritize the marriage over everything. And she understands that she will need to fight against how she feels sometimes to make that happen, but she wants to do it. I think we're both clear that failure to make this work means we'll have to try separation instead.

She noted at one point that she felt like she kept making progress with good days and then feeling sad when we reset everything with bad days. I told her I didn't feel that way--to me, we've never made any progress on the relationship this entire time because anytime she's had a choice between the M or herself, she's chosen herself--so the good days are just days where she never had to make such a choice.

She largely agreed with that and realized she's been selfish her entire life and being M-first now would require a complete change of thinking for her. She wants to try. She recognizes that in virtually all of our conflicts she arrives at a different way of thinking and that her initial defensiveness is illogical and unproductive. As many of you pointed out, she just hates the idea of not resisting my POV because she feels she's losing--even though she sees she's still "losing" and hurting us both tremendously in the process before she does.

For me, I don't want to ever frame this as me kicking her out of the house. I feel like she was close to choosing to leave on her own late last night and early this morning and she will leave on her own if she fails again. I told her she'll need to proactively anticipate these issues before they arise by filtering all her actions through a pro-M, empathetic lens--and when that fails, she'll need to be willing to have open, honest conversations with me without thinking I'm her adversary.

She claims she is now set straight and gets it. She claims she's on the coaster and is going to prioritize me and the marriage before her needs no matter what. I told her those are all just words and we're likely setting ourselves up to fail again, but from my perspective, one more bad conflict isn't that big of a deal at this point and her perspective is she desperately wants one more chance to show she deserves to be my partner for the rest of our lives.

**

When you talked to the polygrapher did he discuss lines of questioning with you and help you come up with questions?

Typically you will get only 4 questions. Those questions can not be subjective. It is a "yes" or "no" question only.

I would honestly be skeptical if he is allowing a long line of questioning and having her sign a document after stating the specific things she said.

It doesn’t work if the questions can left up to interpretation.

I have personal experience with a polygraph.

The polygrapher said she can't do a list of questions and have her sign off on all of them, but she did say she could look at a testimony and build two or three questions to ask in the process of confirming the entire document. My thought was I could have my WW confirm all the locations and activities she was alone with AP for, meaning if she was untruthful, it would mean they had additional hookups. I was thinking the same for the badmouthing list. And then I had 1-3 other questions.

Bottom-line though, I didn't like the polygrapher I spoke with--she was very crass and insensitive--so I'll be looking for another option.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:13 PM, Friday, July 1st]

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8743038
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sundance ( member #72129) posted at 7:26 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

DSL: After nearly an hour, she did it again--re-engaged on the dinner. This time digging into how unfair the dynamic is between us that I can go out with friends and family and she has no friends or nearby family. I was surprised and decided to head upstairs rather than engage again.

DSL: Bottom-line though, I didn't like the polygrapher I spoke with--she was very crass and insensitive--so I'll be looking for another option.

why, when something seems tough for you, is your go-to answer to disengage, or to seek out someone/something that makes you feel better about yourself/your position?

imho, you have this creepy way of making her feel safe with you (offering wine, putting on soft music, setting the scene), and then when she finally feels vulnerable enough to broach a subject she's struggling with, you flip-it to make it seem as if she can't let something go. then, you double-down by retreating to your room and texting her that she's a royal F-up.

she feels controlled. by you. i get it. i see it from what you've written across these many, many pages.

how long are you going to punish her and make her jump through hoops? she will never be who you want her to be because she is not allowed, by you, to be who she truly is: she is the wife who wants you to manage to get your boy on the school bus without her help. you are the man crying over the fact that your wife told the "world" that you can't get your boy on the bus without her help. why can't you get your boy on the bus? why does any thought of your own imperfection(s) seem to cut so deeply?

as always-- just food for thought. no need to answer.

Rusty: You scared?Linus: You suicidal?Rusty: Only in the morning.

posts: 142   ·   registered: Nov. 21st, 2019
id 8743045
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 7:58 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

In insisting that your W focus first on the M, you're boxing yourself into a corner that sucks; it's not materially different from the corner you placed yourself in before her A.

Your W has to focus on herself before she can effectively focus on the M. She has to get authentic to heal, and she has to get authentic to be worth staying with. If she focuses on the M, she'll be the same inauthentic, co-dependent woman she's been for decades. Energy she spends focusing on the M is energy taken away from changing from cheater to good partner.

*****

You talk about telling your W what you feel. What words do you use? If they're not words that name feelings (mad, sad, glad, scared, ashamed, wanting, loving, etc.), you're sharing thoughts, not feelings.

Also, you say, 'I wanted her to know how her actions were hurting me....' That sounds like thinking, not sharing feelings. It also is tinged with blameshifting - blaming your feelings on your W. That's a sign of co-dependence.

Even though I wasn't asking her to not go to the dinner....

You may be kidding yourself on this - note that people get more meaning from non-verbal communications than verbal comms. What have your non-verbals been saying?

I transitioned from anger and disappointment toward her into empathy.

You are describing a switch from Persecutor to Rescuer in a Drama Triangle. Wanting her to know how her actions are hurting you is also possibly DT stuff. I strongly recommend that you read about the DT, which is easy to find with a web search.

The way out of DTs is to become authentic.

Your posts say, from time to time, that you act in ways that will evoke the response you want. You are wrapped up in wanting your W to cancel the dinner, but she has to cancel for the right reasons.

All in all, I read possible co-dependence and lack of authenticity in you, as well as in your W. You can't heal while you're co-d and inauthentic.

That's meant as feedback, not criticism. Living in DTs is very much like living co-dependently. The cure is the same. And people have written about getting from DT/co-d to authenticity, so if you really are addicted to DTs or co-d, you have numerous guides for healing yourself.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 27617   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8743053
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 8:43 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

she is the wife who wants you to manage to get your boy on the school bus without her help. you are the man crying over the fact that your wife told the "world" that you can't get your boy on the bus without her help. why can't you get your boy on the bus?

Wow. If I recall, this incident happened while she was in a hotel room fucking another man. She then called her mom and ranted about that problem, to justify her being in a hotel room with another man.

Low blow.

Doc..never let anyone tell you that the pain and trauma you are dealing with is somehow a punishment, and that wanting a wife to be honest and show remorse is expecting her to jump through hoops. That's absurd.

posts: 4669   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8743059
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 8:57 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

I couldn't disagree with Sundance more.

Your wife is trying to hurt you on purpose. She wants to win. She wants to he the victim. She is lying through her teeth about whats important to her. She is saying what she thinks she is supposed to say. She wants control back. That is what is important to her. She keeps proving it, you keep not believing it.

Yes, I do think you're co dependent but it's fucked up to say that months out from your lying cheating wife fucking another man for months and badmouthing you, she has had enough punishment. She hasn't done ANYTHING selfless yet. Why are you comforting her while she is picking fights and hurting you? Why bring her wine? What does that do for you? Are you rewarding her or trying to pacify her?

You really need to separate or fully disengage. You're looking for answers that aren't there. Your wife isn't capable of being who you need her to be right now. Stop letting her be in control. She is hurting you on purpose and quite possibly ending you marriage whether you want it to end or not because she will not back off and try to heal. This is who she is and you have 10,000 ways to excuse her. You have got to take some space and stop forcing this marriage repair talk. You are no where near ready for that.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 9:06 PM, Friday, July 1st]

posts: 300   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8743062
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 9:00 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

why, when something seems tough for you, is your go-to answer to disengage, or to seek out someone/something that makes you feel better about yourself/your position?

I’ve spent most of my time post-DDay engaging in deep conversations with my wife. It hurt me and was unhelpful for her. A couple of weeks ago, I decided to disengage anytime a conversation has no reasonable path to resolution. In this case, my WW’s position was that it was unfair that because of the affair, all her "friends" don’t want to talk with her anymore, while I still have all of my friends and family as support. Not only do I not find that unfair, we had exhausted the topic over the last 24 hours and a grueling MC session.

As for the polygrapher, I went over my proposed questions for her and she responded: "Cut all the questions not about sex; all the other stuff is fine—no one can eat the same soup every day for the rest of their lives, you just want to know when she crossed the line."

I found her perspective grotesque, so I will not be doing business with her.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8743063
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 9:05 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

DrStrangeLove,

I'm not going to monday morning quarterback your specific set of actions.

What I do see is that she thinks the dynamic isn't fair.

It isn't fair. It is onesided.

What was more unfair and onesided was her affair.

Your relationship needs massive repair from damage she caused. If she doesn't get that it will be an unequal load that she needs to carry the majority of, then it's really not going to work out.

One issue I had, was trying to be positive when possible. To get some possitive cycle going. What that looked like to my wife was I was nice then angry. Nice and then angry. If you aren't happy, don't act happy. Don't try to have a good evening with a person you are mad at. Be mad. Be consistently mad. It will be easier for her to understand.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2116   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8743064
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 9:15 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

In insisting that your W focus first on the M, you're boxing yourself into a corner that sucks; it's not materially different from the corner you placed yourself in before her A.

Your W has to focus on herself before she can effectively focus on the M. She has to get authentic to heal, and she has to get authentic to be worth staying with. If she focuses on the M, she'll be the same inauthentic, co-dependent woman she's been for decades. Energy she spends focusing on the M is energy taken away from changing from cheater to good partner.

I recognize that is your view; and it makes sense to me. It is not the view of our MC or others on this forum (like PowerWithin).

I’m open to either path—my WW moving out and working on herself, or her working on herself in the house with me while she prioritizes our M. I’m not optimistic for how this goes, but I’m willing to give her a chance at it. I *really* like our MC and I’m very impressed with her (I’m hard to impress)—so I’m leaning in toward her advice and don’t see this path as a problem because if it fails, she will move out.

You talk about telling your W what you feel. What words do you use? If they're not words that name feelings (mad, sad, glad, scared, ashamed, wanting, loving, etc.), you're sharing thoughts, not feelings.

Also, you say, 'I wanted her to know how her actions were hurting me....' That sounds like thinking, not sharing feelings. It also is tinged with blameshifting - blaming your feelings on your W. That's a sign of co-dependence.

You’re right. It started on Wednesday with me telling her how I feel and through the endless conversation it developed into something different.

You are describing a switch from Persecutor to Rescuer in a Drama Triangle. Wanting her to know how her actions are hurting you is also possibly DT stuff. I strongly recommend that you read about the DT, which is easy to find with a web search.

The way out of DTs is to become authentic.

Your posts say, from time to time, that you act in ways that will evoke the response you want. You are wrapped up in wanting your W to cancel the dinner, but she has to cancel for the right reasons.

All in all, I read possible co-dependence and lack of authenticity in you, as well as in your W. You can't heal while you're co-d and inauthentic.

That's meant as feedback, not criticism. Living in DTs is very much like living co-dependently. The cure is the same. And people have written about getting from DT/co-d to authenticity, so if you really are addicted to DTs or co-d, you have numerous guides for healing yourself.

I’m not familiar with DTs, but I’ll look into it. Thank you for the feedback.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8743065
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 9:19 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

Doc..never let anyone tell you that the pain and trauma you are dealing with is somehow a punishment, and that wanting a wife to be honest and show remorse is expecting her to jump through hoops. That's absurd.

I’ll be honest, Sundance’s recent post shocked me. We had a recent PM exchange that makes it extra strange and cruel. It’s the internet though. I’ll be ok. And I appreciate you.

P.S. You and Clouds came up during my WW’s rant last night. She noted I’m being influenced by the two of you in wanting to separate from her. I have my own agency.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8743066
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 9:23 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

Your wife is trying to hurt you on purpose. She wants to win. She wants to he the victim. She is lying through her teeth about whats important to her. She is saying what she thinks she is supposed to say. She wants control back. That is what is important to her. She keeps proving it, you keep not believing it.

Yes, I do think you're co dependent but it's fucked up to say that months out from your lying cheating wife fucking another man for months and badmouthing you, she has had enough punishment. She hasn't done ANYTHING selfless yet. Why are you comforting her while she is picking fights and hurting you? Why bring her wine? What does that do for you? Are you rewarding her or trying to pacify her?

You really need to separate or fully disengage. You're looking for answers that aren't there. Your wife isn't capable of being who you need her to be right now. Stop letting her be in control. She is hurting you on purpose and quite possibly ending you marriage whether you want it to end or not because she will not back off and try to heal. This is who she is and you have 10,000 ways to excuse her. You have got to take some space and stop forcing this marriage repair talk. You are no where near ready for that.

I agree with you. I’m willing to try to M-first approach and see how it goes. I feel like I have nothing to lose at this point. Perhaps she wakes up and this gives her breathing room to focus on herself more anyway. Or perhaps it fails horribly and she moves out. I feel like at least now we have a path with defined outcomes.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8743067
default

 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 9:37 PM on Friday, July 1st, 2022

What I do see is that she thinks the dynamic isn't fair.

It isn't fair. It is onesided.

What was more unfair and onesided was her affair.

Your relationship needs massive repair from damage she caused. If she doesn't get that it will be an unequal load that she needs to carry the majority of, then it's really not going to work out.

Agreed entirely. But it’s worse—she doesn’t want fairness; she wants unfairness in her direction. This was the focus of the end of our talk today—she needs to pull a 180 from selfish to marriage focused over night and she claims she will. We will see.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8743069
Topic is Sleeping.
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