SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am 59. Found out in 2008 about my wife's online/phone EA with her high school BF. She maintains a vague line of innocence because he threatened to kill himself for her attention. She was remorseful and still feels bad about it but everything she did has some reason or explanation.

While we managed to live these years, there is one detail of contention about the affair. She says she never wanted to be with him and last week she told me, looking into my eyes 'I did not even want to touch him."
She has been very flirty and erotic on the chat but denies vehemently that she wanted to sleep with him after I caught her planning a trip and a five-star hotel stay. She maintains stubbornly that she fell in love but did not want even to touch him. I am struggling to believe her version because there is some truth to it, but I do not think she was not interested in meeting him. She had done everything she could on the phone and webcam (those days) and was moving to meet in person.
So, the problem here is not what she did but I just can not understand why she would maintain this. In some weird way, she thinks only doing something dirty counts as sex. But, her chat even gives me a hard-on at times.

For me, I keep doubting that she is telling the truth. Yes. I said it right. I am not worried about what she wants to hide. The level of sincerity and the depth of her affair trumps everything anyone can do physically. I do know for a fact she dodges responsibility for even simple things like making a wrong turn while driving. Should I ignore that she is lying to make her feel better rather than making me think the way she wants me to think.

I have been getting terrible flashbacks and nightmares. I am a psychiatrist, and I know I suffer from bad PTSD. Yet, my mind wants her to be honest and tell me the truth, and I feel that everything will be fine after. It feels stupid to think that way, but I am lost with what is right and wrong.

BTW - I genuinely believe that she forgot the other guy. After all, we found out that the guy was not dying from brain cancer (for which she would meet him in a 5 Star hotel).
For the n'th time we are discussing separation. She will leave if I ask her. I am seriously thinking about leaving. If you think I am stupid to carry on this long, I welcome your comments too.

Sometimes, cheating is just a deal-breaker. You report that you're a psychiatrist, so you have the tools you need. Further, you know that you can't force people to give you what you want. These events happened 14 years ago, correct? So, if you haven't become comfortable with your reconciliation and you've used your skill set to address the problem, maybe it's just not something you're ever going to be satisfied with. Divorce at 60 isn't a pleasant thing, but if you are miserable in your marriage, that's no way to live either.

Alternatively, I have a theory for you. I think it's possible that when we're reasonably satisfied with our R and then years and years later, suddenly become obsessed with the betrayal again, that we might need to "reprocess" the trauma. I think maybe it gets stored wrong, and that possibly techniques like EMDR might repair the problem. It could be that you've had some kind of trigger, maybe even at the subconscious level which made all this fresh for you. Bear in mind, I am NOT a psychiatrist. Just somebody who has dealt with a buttload of trauma. But this seems logical to me. When we're reasonably satisfied with our life one day and then suddenly re-living the trauma the next, it just seems rational that something has happened. I think these old experiences get reawakened somehow and the hallmark of trauma seems to me to be in how the past feels so fresh and present. That would indicate that we're dealing with a trauma response, which after quite a bit of time has past, seems like faulty storage or wiring.

Anyway, that's one theory, and worth giving a shot if you'd rather save the marriage. We've had so many people come through here with this issue, and all of them, fixated on "getting the truth". And that's fine, if you really think that there's some truth which could be provided that would fix this for you. Let's say she confirms what you believe she's been holding back. Are you square at that point?.. happy with her honesty and ready to move on? Most of the time the answer is 'no' on that one.

Hi Doc

You will have your own insights.

I think some posters here might help you see the forest for the trees, and learn how to call a spade a shovel.

My own guess is that your wife is a selfish person, who in 2008 wanted to feel like she was the heroine in a romance novel. I think you might be over-valuing how authentic her connection with the old boyfriend was. It may have been all tip, no iceberg. After all, did you say he pretended to be dying? That sounds like silly histrionics, not deep connection, but your wife liked it at the time.

Your wife may still be the same person now. You are feeling a lack of authenticity, depth and loyalty. Maybe she can provide that, maybe not. But my guess is that you should stop assuming that she gave that to the other guy.

And yes, she would have had sex with him if she could have, even if one reason was to keep the game going and the ego stroked.

My question for you. Do you like your wife? Do you want to stay with her if she can make realistic changes?

I’m in the minority perhaps, but I think issues like kids has a bearing on that decision. You haven’t described your circumstances.

Also Doc, my father was a psychiatrist (and had affairs). The job can cause some emotional wear and tear, including some PTSD in my father’s case from a siege situation. His colleagues tell me of his infallible and annoying ability to review a treatment plan momentarily, to say if it would work, and always be right. But doctors tend to make poor patients. My father’s personal ethics, responsibility (outside of work) and self awareness were a bit shaky IMHO, but I loved him. He has passed now. Could a psychologist colleague in a neighboring town provide support and perspective as you think and feel your way through this?

[This message edited by straightup at 10:05 PM, Wednesday, April 27th]

She's adamant she didn't want to touch him yet she was planning a FIVE DAY trip to a 5 star hotel with him.

Hmm... if she wasn't going to touch him, there would be no need to go see him.

Her saying she didn't want to touch him doesn't hold water, she knows it and you know it.

Since you know this OP, the only question is what are you going to do about it.

The ball has been and is in your court regarding this.

It's your life and your choice.

It seems clear to me the intent was there and what she did up to that point was bad enough to end things with her as well.

This comes down to your choice, you need to get off the fence you're sitting on and have been sitting on and land on one side or the other.

If she keeps holding onto to her lie about not wanting to touch him, tell her she's going to take a poly.

If she passes, maybe that helps you move on and stay with her.

If she doesn't pass, then you know she's been looking at you and lying to your face regarding that all this time and that should be enough to move you to the other side of the fence.

Of course you keep doubting that she's telling you the truth, because she isn't telling you the truth.

I have had triggers and flashbacks all along the 14 years. We lived with it and I do think she handled it fine mostly. The problem is not "finding the truth." I think we both understand that the details do not matter. Sincerely.

Well, even today she profusely apologized and we are on the verge of separation. But, I keep looking for her NOT to say that there was no sex. In fact, she uses the same wording "I did not WANT to sleep with him." She would refuse to answer if I asked, "Were you aware that you were heading in that direction?"

Again and again, she keeps the same line of talk and even prides herself on being consistent although she once blurted out while we were having a good time "I might have slept with him... especially in the mindset I was in."

However, I try to think without bias and consider this scenario. He was an old crush. She contacted him 10 years after marriage because it was bothering her that he attempted suicide after she married me (arranged marriage but this is common in India) and kept talking to him because he was threatening to kill himself. She reluctantly agreed to meet him because she says in spite of her protest he convinced her to meet.
What if, she really was not looking to meet him and she told him in clear terms not to expect physical intimacy because she feels guilty. Possible. But, I have no evidence. Sometimes it feels like she is gaslighting not fully knowing what she is doing. The other possibility is that she is trying to not reveal something else which explains the gaslighting.

The lack of trust is killing our relationship. We are fine otherwise.

BTW - when found out, she wanted to leave me and my kids, live alone in a nearby apartment, come home, cook, and clean for the three of us like a maid. How can I trust someone's judgement.

trust is the first thing to go when infidelity happens.
however, when the cheater continues to hide/minimize/evade and play word games, it becomes almost impossible to rebuild trust.
cheaters play a narrative in their mind to justify their actions. i think it's a defense mechanism for their happiness and survival. and after a while, they believe the made up narrative.
you would think after 14 years, she would be honest with you for once. for heaven's sake. either she doesn't trust that you would understand and forgive her if you knew the whole truth, or she doesn't value you enough to tell the truth.

WSs often talk about this "slippery slope." As if they're being compelled by some invisible force towards something that they don't really want but are powerless to resist. The slippery slope is a lie. Actually, it's a whole convoluted series of lies that they tell themselves to make what they're doing ok. "Ok, I will secretly meet him for dinner, but if he touches me I'll make him stop." "Ok he touched me, so I'll secretly meet him for dinner again, and this time if he kisses me, I'll make him stop." "Ok he kissed me, so I'll secretly meet him at his place and this time if he tries to have sex with me, I'll make him stop."

That was my W's "slippery slope." Each step of the way involved a two hour drive and lots of secret plotting. And, oh by the way, if the OM didn't make the next move she made it for him. But it was a slippery slope. An unavoidable series of tragic events.

They know what they want and where they're going but it's so wrong that they lie to themselves about it constantly to make it ok. Once they're caught and the thrill is gone and they're faced with the the reality of it, it's much easier to believe the lies than to face what the truth says about them.

OP, it sounds like your W never had any physical contact with the AP once you got married, but you're troubled by the thought of what was her intent? I think many of the BS's on this board probably would have moved on from that and forgiven. I mean shit, there are BSs on here that are willing to accept much worst... BJs, Anal, sex in the bed, the works just to get back to R. I think there are BS's on here that have repeat offenders, kind of like my wife had 5.

To me, it sounds like her flirty text and planned trip that never happened has been haunting you still 14 yrs later. Im sorry to say this but, its not going to change. Many of the BS's on here have been able to move 3, 4, 5 yrs on. YOu're still stuck after 14. And what's worst, it sounds like your wife is a gaslighter who cannot accept responsibility, but has the whoa is me mentality.

Are you kids old enough now to be out of the house? Given the wear and tear on your relationship and your wife still sticking to her tune, what needs to change?

Sincere thanks. Peer support is the best thing by evidence. I am a prescriber and researcher. Not a therapist but trained to do so.

First, some background: People generally do not have premarital love or sex where I grew up. Occasionally kids get in trouble for passing notes to the wrong girl. At age 15, she told her parents about such a note, and her brother went looking for the guy but found one of his friends and beat him up. That guy, later on, stalked her relentlessly, and she fell for him. She says they never met in person but saw each other every day in school and talked on the phone. Her parents found out, and her father beat her up. The only time she was hit. He fails in school, and she graduates at the top of the class. In college in different cities, he completely ignores her. He had done this on and off drama, and she assumes he found a new girl. He sends a letter written in blood and sends pages of scribble but disappears completely.
I married her in her senior year. Their parents did pressure her to marry me quoting her damaged reputation in her village. We married after a few phone calls and letters and met the day before the wedding.
As a teen, I saw one of my sisters go through something similar that caused a massive problem with my dad and the family. My other sisters and I made it a point to cause no trouble but arranged marriages are not that bad and we did well. We both liked each other and I was more than thrilled. But for a couple of small but potentially significant differences that could be manageable, we were happy. For example, my parents were happier about our marriage than my three sisters'.
After 5 years of marriage, she hears that the other guy who was out of touch for years apparently attempted (or threatened) suicide upon her decision to marry me - years ago. This haunts her for the next five years until she finds an excuse to get his cell phone number. After the third call, he proposes to her that they spend one week every year like the husband and wife that they were meant to be but for society. She felt insulted and ended it but he called her from a psychiatric hospital as a patient with a broken heart and was suicidal. Then the rest.

Am I bothered by what she did? Of course yes. The betrayal hurts like shit. And, when I am triggered it is all real. I understand that. My PTSD is not under control but I have learned to live with that. But, I am tired of answering questions about letting go or being preoccupied with scenarios, etc. Of the many sincere thoughts, I even wish she had some sexual fetish.
An affair like addiction follows the slippery slope and we find excuses to bury our guilt - to our own selves. Addiction recovery does not stop at the habit. Realization and redemption are major aspects of addiction recovery. Especially when others are hurt.

What is going on now between us is this. We lived through a cycle of flashbacks-fights-apologies-guilt trips-compensatory summers in Europe- then flashbacks. Therapy made things worse. Our kids are grown and out. They knew from the beginning.
I am triggered into crying spells often. We generally handle it well as long as we do not talk about the affair. The last major blow-up was in October and since then, when I am refusing to engage in a fight but made my mind clear about things I hesitate to bring up. We text when things get tense.

All my life, I have strongly believed that honesty is a key to happiness (and BTW I used to lecture on the science of happiness and honesty is the ONLY thing you can do to improve happiness. 80% is biological and decided on the day you are born. 12% is your circumstances and accomplishment and only 8% is under your control. After honesty, exercise comes as a distant second, and other factors depend on how much you are willing to pay the therapist who tells you how happy you are.)
So, I am trying very hard to be honest to myself, acknowledge my feelings, and stay very factual. Like someone said she does not trust or value me to open up. It is hard for me to see the benefits of separation but I long to be alone. It just sucks all around.
At this point, I am going by the minute. I am not letting my emotions, past or future, influence me and most of all not react. I follow what I advise my patients and I get advice from internet memes. (LOL - the best I have to see was -- Do not promise anything when you are happy, Do not say anything when you are angry, and do not make any decision when you are depressed).

OP,

You said:

"The lack of trust is killing our relationship."

You know you need to deal with that. If you don't address it, just end the marriage now as it will end after more pain, more crying, more distress between now and whenever the end comes.

And she won't be honest with you or herself regarding this, she hasn't all this time and she's not going to begin now.

Have her take a polygraph.

Now, don't tell her to unless you'll leave her when she says no, that you need to trust her.

Uh, how's that been working out for you the last 14 years OP?

Not good. Here is some of what you wrote:

"I have had triggers and flashbacks all along the 14 years."

"I am triggered into crying spells often."

OP, I don't want to see you choose to continue living this way the rest of you life.

Tell her that you can't, that it's killing you, tearing you up inside. Tell her she has the medicine you need. Ask her if she wants you to be in such pain for the rest of your life.

OP, it's actions. She'll either address this for you or she'll keep twisting the knife she placed into your back all those years ago, one that remains there to this day.

If she won't take a poly for you, you have your answer. That will be her telling you that it's too bad, but you're going to have to live like this the rest of your life, with triggers and flashbacks regularly, having more crying spells etc.

It's past time for her to step up and demonstrate her love to you, for you. Love is a verb, it requires action, not just words.

She'll either do this for you or she won't.

If she won't and you choose to remain with her, you've resigned yourself to a future of hurt, pain, misery, flashbacks, crying etc.

You will become depressed too, if you aren't already and from your profession you know that this will affect you physically in addition to mentally and none of us need things like this on top of old age.

I sincerely hope you find peace OP, in some way. I'm sorry you've had to live like this for so long and I truly hope you don't have to continue living like this the rest of your life.

Has she had individual therapy to help her understand why she had the affair? To understand why her story does not make sense to the casual observer?

If you think I am stupid to carry on this long, I welcome your comments too.

You aren't stupid, you're emotionally attached, which is healthy and natural. Unfortunately, you're attached to a bad apple, so it isn't going to work out.

I have been getting terrible flashbacks and nightmares. I am a psychiatrist, and I know I suffer from bad PTSD.

Yes, you have PTSD. I recommend you read Cheating in a Nutshell by Tamara and Wayne Mitchell, which really lays out the effects of cheating on the betrayed spouse. One point they make is that when a person is traumatized, the first step towards healing is to remove them from the source of trauma. You don't send a soldier with PTSD right back to the battlefield. Likewise, your marriage is not a safe place for you to be right now. Your daily interactions with the person who betrayed you is harmful. She isn't doing anything to make you feel safe or help you heal, so it's time to separate yourself from her. The good thing about separation is that, while acutely painful, it's a pain with a relatively short time limit once you've gone no-contact.

[This message edited by morningglory at 4:22 AM, Thursday, April 28th]

OP. When trust is questioned because the BS does not believe the WS is being truthful about whether she and the AP had sex or not, a polygraph is the way to go.

Some BS oppose using a poly, which to me is short sighted. The poly will give your your answer. Otherwise, you will simply continue to live unhappily or end up divorced.

If your WW refuses to take a poly then I would take that to mean she’s lying. At that point you should serve her with legal separation and/or divorce papers.

If your WW loves you and still wants the M she will either come clean with the real story or stick with her story and take the poly. If she is lying and/or doesn’t love you snd/or the marriage, she will readily agree to separation snd/or divorce right off the bat.

I’m so sorry you have been struggling all these years.

Gently you are trying to make sense of a situation that has no logic to it. Emotions contradict logic. Why your wife spoke to this guy is illogical.

You will never make sense of it. So stop trying.

I was where you are 3 years after Dday. My H was kicking me to the curb to be with the OW. I was shattered and devastated and angry 😡.

I was unsure if I should D him. I still had doubts.

Until I decided I was not going to let his affair ruin one more minute of my life. It was not going to define me or impact me.

I accepted it happened. I accepted he wanted to Reconcile.

We have been reconciled 9 years. We are happy. We have a good marriage.

Yes I could still be digging for the truth and acting like a trial attorney trying to connect the dots and get the "truth". I know the truth. I know what happened. I don’t need my H to validate anything.

I stopped living in the past. Best thing I could have done.

I hope this helps you.

Please do not sound harsh. I do not think there is any malice in her action. There is no truth that I need to find out or she needs to reveal.

She is not doing what she needs to do and I am not doing what I should have. There were many 'honest' moments and we did survive 14 years. It could have been better.

She just insists on the idea of being seriously emotionally involved with zero sexual attraction or intention - and this is the conflict of this season. We also have set a pattern of push and pull. I sincerely think her denial and minimization - like a drug addict's- have taken her on a path of lies she has lost track of. It has been a constant struggle from the beginning (we were just friends).
I do not think I can do anything at this point or I am expecting any change. However, I honestly think things will be much better if we talk to someone who successfully reconciled or a therapist who knows what they are doing. Unfortunately, like in addiction, peer counseling is usually much better than professionals. I do not think many therapists understand affairs like Esther Perel. Or at least she should talk to someone from here or a therapist.

It is true we are struggling but it is also true we try. She had a lucid moment after watching this but majority of the times she withdraws and fights. SI clearly identifies some who do not wish to change. My family advises me to tolerate the lies and pretend. I accept that but it is hard. It is a difficult decision to weigh the pros and cons of leaving or staying.

Hate is easy but meaningless and unproductive. Trauma is a tricky thing - sometimes it makes you stronger. Me, I do have symptoms of PTSD and I need to manage the triggers and mood swings. Listening to you is tremendously helpful.

The difference this time is that I am not taking the bluff and she knows it. Or I am seriously considering a separation.

Polygraph: I say this as a neuroscientist. Polygraph is NOT reliable or valid. I am not saying it is easy to cheat but the test is as unreliable as studying body language. When I considered an fMRI study that might show the brain activation in truth vs. lie (even the CIA was interested). But, lies are hard to replicate in a lab and I knew I could not study them.

The test looks at acute physiological changes related to the question and the associated anxiety. Of course, a person is going to be anxious when polygraphed and he or will show results all over the place.

It is also a bad idea to submit someone whom you suspect. It just destroys the trust that is not there already.

The question here is, can you forgive infidelity? Of course yes as it is stupid and silly. A mistake. But, it is hard to deal with someone who remains in the fog. The difficulty is to give up on somebody. Somebody you loved for years. Somebody, you desperately think will understand. I am failing on this. I repeatedly hear that I should not try to fix her. I understand. But, my heart and mind sincerely expect her to change. Change the attitude and stop getting angry.

I have been at the edge for 14 years. Now, I see no hope. It is very true that she is a trigger for my PTSD.

Interestingly, before the pandemic, I was traveling a lot with conferences and lecture tours. Life was good when there is a limited separation and some me-time. It was better but not ideal.
Overall, a near-death experience gives a huge perspective on life. Similarly, affairs give a completely new perspective on love and relationship. I am sure there is a part of her that woke up but not enough to save her marriage.

Today is a difficult day for me. Last two nights she has been sleeping in a different room. Having said all this, there is a tug-of-war going on and I am being drawn into arguments and fights.

I know for certain that she would rather not split. She will do everything to make me respond emotionally, including making me feel guilty, about how abusive I am by bringing this up all the time, how incapable I am to forgive, how sincerely she worked to save the marriage, she will sacrifice and live alone and my happiness is her only desire. They all have components of truth in them but are not very honest.
We are at a different stage of failing reconciliation. The decision is what is a better decision now?

I see 'psychiatrist' and Ann Arbor' - the first good therapist I came across was in training at the Neuro-Psychiatric Institute, and I hated to move away from him.

You can't change the past. You can only change your response to it. You can't change your W. You can only change yourself.

You know you're suffering from PTSD. The PTSD is the source of your pain. Why not address that? Why not do - not try - EMDR, CBT, EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique), meds, anything else that might help?

Stop being a physician - start being a patient seeking help.

*****

You say you don't think you have the truth. I don't even want to imagine living with a partner who lies about something important to me. But do your W's answers matter? Would any likely answers change what you will actually do? If not, does that change your thoughts and feelings about your distrust?

(Those are not rhetorical questions. I trust you know you don't have to answer them publicly, but I think it would be beneficial to you to answer them for yourself.)

I am treated for PTSD but PTSD does not have good treatment options. Not saying nothing works but a reasonable relief is not common. The main issue with PTSD is the trigger and I am living with the trigger.

I do think that we would have been or would be fine if she does what a WS needs to do. The more I talk to people, I understand that the recovery from an affair for WS does not happen naturally. She is living a lie and it is hurting me.

I also want to say that 'finding the truth' or 'why' are not useful at all. It is human nature to dig when we think something is hidden and we would stop digging the moment we feel everything is accessible. It is the cheaters' responsibility to make the other person feel not being lied to.

I meant to add this text. This touches the point more than anything in addition to the slippery slope. I sent a screenshot to my wife.

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you would think after 14 years, she would be honest with you for once. for heaven's sake. either she doesn't trust that you would understand and forgive her if you knew the whole truth, or she doesn't value you enough to tell the truth.
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Also, regarding the truth. It is just the obvious she wants to me not see.