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Off Topic :
I just do not understand why so much resistance

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 DragnHeart (original poster member #32122) posted at 6:41 PM on Monday, January 3rd, 2022

Here in Ontario we will be going back to a modified stage 2 of reopening. That means back to certain public health measures for 21 days.

50% capacity for malls and retail.

Closing of gyms, theatres, zoos, amusement parks, no indoor dining etc.

Remote learning until at least Jan 17th.

Cap on indoor gatherings of 5 people.

Capacity limits on funeral and other such services.

The list is long as usual.

The outrage at this just shocks me.

With covid numbers in the tens of thousands even if just 1% of those need hospital or ICU care, the reality is our hospitals will be overwhelmed.

What did everyone expect would happen with the numbers of people who went against public health recommendations over the holidays...!?!

I am happy there is a delay in kids returning to school! Many, like my 3 younger ones, arent vaxxed yet. Stick 30+ kids in a small classroom and pray that covid wont run rampant is irresponsible.

(I got my three scheduled for their shot tomorrow).

Its the third day of the year and already it feels like theres no end to how cruel people will be. Social media is swamped with conspiracy theories and people just raging. Anyone saying they approve of the measures gets a written beat down and called names.

Its just so depressing!

I don't understand how so many people can be blind to the obvious. Ignorance or just plain arrogance?

I feel helpless and hopeless and so alone.

Anyone else feel like this?

Me: BS 46 WH: 37 (BrokenHeart911)
Four little dragons. Met 2006. Married 2008. Dday of LTPA with co worker October 19th 2010. Knew about EA with ow1 before that. Now up to PA #5. Serial fucking Cheater.

posts: 24066   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2011   ·   location: Canada
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tushnurse ( member #21101) posted at 8:21 PM on Monday, January 3rd, 2022

People are pushing back because we are about to enter year 3 of thos bullshit.
We know for a fact that lots of what has been done previously doesn't really work.
The good news is that Omicron is NOT nearly as bad as far as level of sickness and duration of it. It is however super contagious.

That said last week I was pulled in to back up the Covid home monitoring program. Our numbers went from 250 entered 2 weeks ago to 1500 by last Monday. I personally am off today because of I took a day. But I suspect our numbers are at least 2500. I worked Covid only on NYE.

Here's my personal findings. Most new infections are starting out with a sore throat and a raging headache. Fevers are not nearly as high. Most people do not lose sense of smell or taste. They do lose appetite. Most are feeling better by day 5. Which is a HUGE improvement over earlier versions of it.
Most people aren't having the crushing fatigue too.

Now here's the interesting part.
Lots and lots and lots of fully vaxd and boosted folks getting it. Lots of previously infected people getting it too. I also didn't see a whole lot 9f difference in symptoms and severity between these groups and non-vaxd folks.

The one really positive thing I see with this is with these new of people with this milder version it should be reaching herd immunity levels soon. Hopefully this will soon be notch more than a cold for most of us.

The folks I have seen that are really sick have some sort of secondary infection like strep, influenza and RSV.

Hang in there and try taking a social media break.

Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 22 & 25
Married for 30 years now, was 16 at the time.
D-Day Sept 26 2008
R'd in about 2 years. Old Vet now.

posts: 19250   ·   registered: Oct. 1st, 2008   ·   location: St. Louis
id 8707174
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 DragnHeart (original poster member #32122) posted at 8:42 PM on Monday, January 3rd, 2022

While I agree that the data so far suggests omicron does not cause severe illness i do wonder about its long term effects. That data is just not in yet.

This virus is mutating within humans. This variant is highly contagious without severe illness. What happens if the next mutation is just as contagious but causes severe illness?

It will take mass death for people to get it through their damn heads to just wear a mask.

What bothers me most is how cruel people are. Everyone is sick and tired of this pandemic but thats NO reason to be as mean, rude, cruel and heartless as i have seen.

And yes i have taken a huge break from social media. If anything i watch videos from my favourite farmers and a few herp community pages. Other than that i stick to farm life. Its the only thing helping me keep my sanity (minus the goats...they drive me nuts daily!)

Me: BS 46 WH: 37 (BrokenHeart911)
Four little dragons. Met 2006. Married 2008. Dday of LTPA with co worker October 19th 2010. Knew about EA with ow1 before that. Now up to PA #5. Serial fucking Cheater.

posts: 24066   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2011   ·   location: Canada
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Candyman66 ( member #52535) posted at 1:41 AM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Reference to your question, we have a comedian down here in the U.S. and his name is Ron White. His take on this is, You can replace your shoulder or your lungs even your heart BUT You CAN'T FIX STUPID!!!!

You should check him out. My wife, when not running me down, says I have the same sense of humor. I think he is very funny.

posts: 1263   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2016   ·   location: SoCal
id 8707250
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 DragnHeart (original poster member #32122) posted at 3:10 AM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

I can respect peoples different views.

I can understand vaccine hesitation.

I have a You do You and ill do me way of thinking.

But.....i will never accept the atrocious behahiour of many ADULTS towards anyone with a different opinion.

My 13 year old asked "why cant people just wear their masks?!?"

How do i answer that?

One of my kids has reactive airway disease. A COLD put her into the hospital. A COLD! Any variant of covid could be devastating to her. Damn right i will keep my distance, wash my hands and wear a mask!

Its a No Brainer decision.

Being told i am stupid, a sheep, etc is not ok!

No we cannot fix stupid! We need to remove all of the warning labels on shit and let nature take its course!

Me: BS 46 WH: 37 (BrokenHeart911)
Four little dragons. Met 2006. Married 2008. Dday of LTPA with co worker October 19th 2010. Knew about EA with ow1 before that. Now up to PA #5. Serial fucking Cheater.

posts: 24066   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2011   ·   location: Canada
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PricklePatch ( member #34041) posted at 6:18 AM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

I don’t get it either. I just saw an article where a woman who had received treatment for cancer was asked to a card game. The woman asked if everyone was vaccinated and all said yes. She went got Covid and died from it one of the attendees a "friend" went to the card game knowing she was sick with Covid. She admitted it when the cancer survivor got sick. Her grand daughter gave the interview to maybe keep someone else safe.

I am very concerned with my daughter’s immune issues with respiratory illness. She was tested and that was a huge issue.

BS Fwh

posts: 3126   ·   registered: Nov. 28th, 2011
id 8707288
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FaithFool ( member #20150) posted at 6:59 AM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Just reading a tweet from someone who said she and her family were super careful at Christmas (all vaxed) and only met up with her mum and sister one time "when we had what we thought was a cold" (excuse me, what??)... Turns out her sis was asymptomatic and gave everyone Covid and now the poster is in the hospital.

I stayed home and cancelled just the one get together with one couple I was going to hang with at a restaurant because I could read the writing on the wall that gathering with ANYONE even after a booster (had mine on Christmas Eve) is/was extremely risky. Omicron doesn't have any fucks to give, it just loves a juicy host, and with people flying around and gathering in unmasked groups it's a veritable buffet. Now bracing for the tsunami of "poor me" stories from people stranded on their Caribbean holidays. duh

It's going to be an interesting few weeks and I'm hoping the system doesn't collapse completely before it's over.

DDay: June 15, 2008
Mistakenly married Mr. Superfreak
20 years of OWs, WTF?
Divorced Dec 26, 2011
"Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget
to sing in the lifeboats". -- Voltaire

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Loukas ( member #47354) posted at 9:41 AM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

For almost two years now, I’ve read thread after thread talking poorly of those who don’t agree with the mandates taken during this pandemic. Not once have I read a single thread disparaging those who agree with the mandates. A couple posts, maybe, but that’s about it. The ignorance and arrogance is not one sided, DH. Especially here.

Being told i am stupid, a sheep, etc is not ok!


My province has 85% vaccination rate (2 doses) and flying through boosters as we speak. The unvaxxed are beginning to be fired from their jobs/careers. They aren’t allowed to eat a burger in a restaurant. Go to a gym, play sports with their friends. They aren’t allowed at a house with more than one family in it or go watch a hockey game. They can’t fly anywhere, or drive between provincial borders without having to quarantine. Finding good work is becoming increasingly difficult because more and more businesses aren’t hiring unvaxxed.

Then there’s my personal favourite: My province has the Canadian Human Righrs Museum. A museum who’s mandate reads as follows "Inspiring a global dialogue. As the world's first museum dedicated to human rights, we are centred around the idea that respect and understanding of human rights can serve as a positive force for change in the world." Except the museum doesn’t allow the unvaxxed to enter.

There’s plenty of ignorance and arrogance to go around.

But with our massive vaccination rate and compliance with mandates, we have tripled our highest ever COVID cases, a number that was set while the vast majority of our population was unvaxxed. So the mandates stopped nothing. The virus spread anyway, faster than ever and right through the vaccines. But apparently now the vaxxed only need to isolate for 5 days when they test positive. Of course it’s still 10 for the unvaxxed though. Because, logic.

So if you don’t understand the resistance, I have to assume it’s because you don’t want to. Calling you stupid or a sheep pales in comparison to how the unvaxxed are being treated.

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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 10:10 AM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Lots and lots and lots of fully vaxd and boosted folks getting it. Lots of previously infected people getting it too. I also didn't see a whole lot 9f difference in symptoms and severity between these groups and non-vaxd folks.

Tush – we have been on the same track regarding covid so far, but the stats I see give me a different picture, especially regarding the last sentence.

Well… maybe I’m seeing some trees in amongst the forest. I’m a stats freak and monitor some WHO and European sites, mainly because they offer a more consistent and consolidated result.

With Delta the rate of infected that needed hospitalization was about 2% but seems to be under 1% with Omricon. Even as low as 0.5%. However, the spread is logarithmically greater, so the number of infected is greater so without the NECESSARY precautions that 0.5-1% would fill up needed hospital beds really fast.

2% of 1000 = 20 but 0.5% of 5000 = 25

Therefore, the need to slow down the spread of Omricon to an acceptable level. "Acceptable" might best be described as to keep the infection-rate at a level where the medical facilities can deal with the percentage that needs their services.

The most striking stat I have seen is from Scandinavian countries that have a really high vaccination ratio (over 85% of adults vaccinated + booster) where the ratio of those in ICU hospitalization is 80% unvaccinated (!!!!). In other words: if 15% are not vaccinated those 15% are the group from which 80% of those needing ICU are found. THAT is IMHO a noteworthy difference in symptoms between vaxed and non-vaxed.

Another worrying trend is that now the age spread of those requiring ICU is greater. Originally with Covid and Delta the average age of ICU/Covid was over 65 it’s now at around 50.

If those stats alone aren’t enough to convince people to get vaccinated, I don’t know what’s required.

On the positive side then MOST that get Omricon show few or even no symptoms and recover in a week or less. There seem to be fewer with long-term effects (loss of taste, smell…). Those that do show symptoms generally experience typical flu-like symptoms – vaxd or no-vaxd. However – as the stats clearly indicate – non-vaxd are more likely to get severe ICU-requiring symptoms.

Another positive is that those requiring hospitalization now spend less time in hospital. This is probably due to increased knowledge in how to treat covid. This does not apply to ICU patients though – the average stay is still +2 weeks in ICU followed by time in a normal recovery ward.

From the beginning of this pandemic the theory has been that eventually this virus will mutate into a less harmful variety and the spread of that virus might give us the immunity required. A lot of scientists have said that maybe Omricon is that mutation. It’s not as mild as we would have wanted but that is IMHO the crux of the issue: At what point do we simply release the beast into society and accept the cost? IMHO that cost would clearly be lower if more people were fully vaxd.


Edited to add:
Just found an article on bbc.com that more-or-less goes over comparable data as I shared. I won't post the link so I stick to the site rules but the article is about "Omicron stats are huge, but look beyond them"

Two things I noticed in the article: Rise in hospital usage irrespective of covid. I guess everything that could be postponed 2020-21 is catching up on us and that the issue is not least the lack of trained medical workers.

[This message edited by Bigger at 11:06 AM, Tuesday, January 4th]

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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 DragnHeart (original poster member #32122) posted at 1:15 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

But with our massive vaccination rate and compliance with mandates, we have tripled our highest ever COVID cases, a number that was set while the vast majority of our population was unvaxxed. So the mandates stopped nothing. The virus spread anyway, faster than ever and right through the vaccines. But apparently now the vaxxed only need to isolate for 5 days when they test positive. Of course it’s still 10 for the unvaxxed though. Because, logic.

My original post wasnt vaxxed vs unvaxxxed! The rude comments (that i did not post because they are vulgar!) was from both vaxxed and unvaxxed. The rage is equal, or seems to be.

"Because logic". Hmmm wouldn't it make sense that unvaxxed would have a higher viral load, meaning MORE virus in their system so they would be sicker and more contagious than vaxxed? I mean that was/is the whole point of the vaccine. To REDUCE SEVERE ILLNESS. It makes sense that if the vaxxed already have an army ready to fight covid (antibodies), that they would be less likely to get severely sick and would have less viral load to spread.

Seems logical. No one ever said that the vaccine was a cure. It just prevents severe illness requiring hospitalization. The mandates do the same. Stop overwhelming our hospitals.


So if you don’t understand the resistance, I have to assume it’s because you don’t want to. Calling you stupid or a sheep pales in comparison to how the unvaxxed are being treated.

Perfect example of not being able to see through ones own views to listen to anothers.

I assume you have had your immunizations and attended public school? What about a tetnus shot? Flu shot? Whats the difference? Why the resistance?

IMO to many people confuse rights with privileges.

Hanging out at a friends house, drinking beer and watching a hockey game isnt a right.

I am all for choice, i am. But choices have consequences and when we live in a society i firmly believe the well being of the many outweighs that of the few.

Me: BS 46 WH: 37 (BrokenHeart911)
Four little dragons. Met 2006. Married 2008. Dday of LTPA with co worker October 19th 2010. Knew about EA with ow1 before that. Now up to PA #5. Serial fucking Cheater.

posts: 24066   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2011   ·   location: Canada
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 2:05 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

It’s not really the spread of Covid that’s the issue. If we could get an infectious variety that had a >0.0001% rate of hospitalization, I guess government would be staging "get-covid-parties" to get this over with.
The BIG defining factor is access to medical facilities – especially ICU units – and the hospitalization rate.

Adding beds because of an influx of covid patients might be doable. Could even ramp up production of life-support systems to meet demand.

Adding trained staff to manage people in assisted breathing and/or ICU is not doable. The present staff has been overworked for the past couple of years and the ratio of new fully trained is still lower than the drop-out rate from burn-out and exhaustion. There is a world-wide lack of nurses and even if we could triple graduation rates it still takes an absolute minimum of 12 months to train an ICU nurse.

I don’t think vaccinations are doing anything to stop the spread per se. I even doubt it will impact the number of infected in any significant way. But the stats are beginning to pile up that confirm that a higher number of un-vaxd require intense hospital care (ICU) than those that are vaccinated.

What my big fear is that if we limit restrictions the ICU units will fill up within a couple of weeks, mainly by those refused vaccination, and that doctors will have to once again start playing God regarding who get’s treatment and who gets to die. I guess if people could sign a wavier allowing medical staff to remove them off life-support if the bed is needed, I would have more understanding for those that refuse vaccination.
After all – wouldn’t it be against principle to depend on the same science you refuted to save your life?

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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 DragnHeart (original poster member #32122) posted at 2:32 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

In a report published Dec 15th 2020 talking about the number of ICU beds available in Ontario it said:

that many of those beds exist "on paper" only because overburdened hospitals simply don’t have enough nurses and other personnel to staff them.

The system is already stretched to its limits.

Me: BS 46 WH: 37 (BrokenHeart911)
Four little dragons. Met 2006. Married 2008. Dday of LTPA with co worker October 19th 2010. Knew about EA with ow1 before that. Now up to PA #5. Serial fucking Cheater.

posts: 24066   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2011   ·   location: Canada
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Want2BHappyAgain ( member #45088) posted at 2:40 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Thank you Loukas smile . All anyone needs to do is read anything on this site that says "Covid" to see the hypocrisy. I am not vaccinated and that should be that. I know the risks...and I take precautions. I have never gotten Covid and I have never spread it to anyone. Yet I am lumped in with this group labeled the UNVAXXED...like we are some kind of conspiracy theorists who only want to KILL people duh . There are fringe groups in EVERY category...but no one seems to even want to know WHY I have not gotten vaccinated. I am just labeled STUPID for not doing it. I don't have a problem with that...I have been called worse smile .

No one ever said that the vaccine was a cure.

Oh yes ma'am they have...MANY times. Main Streem Media has been saying this for a LONG time! The further back you read on the threads on here...you will see people stating it too. NOW people are finally seeing that this vaccine is not the end all be all that it was touted to be. Yet unvaccinated people are losing their jobs for not being vaccinated...when it has been shown that it doesn't MATTER whether a person is vaccinated or not. It really doesn't make sense duh .

Thank you tushnurse for posting about the symptoms smile . We really NEED to have some kind of dialogue to help FIGHT this virus. I don't understand WHY the monoclonal antibodies or the other therapeutics are not still readily available. I read where the monoclonal antibodies can't attach to the spike protein in the Omicron variant...but the CDC showed that Delta is still out there...and these antibodies DO help. I am not understanding why the therapeutic pills aren't readily available either. Thank God that this variant doesn't seem to be as deadly...but patients are still being admitted into the hospitals at alarming rates. These therapeutics can HELP in keeping people out of the hospital...and it boggles my mind that the federal government has STOPPED making the monoclonal antibodies available.

When we can stop being so divisive...maybe we can actually HELP each other.

A "perfect marriage" is just two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other.

With God ALL things are possible (Matthew 19:26)

I AM happy again...It CAN happen!!!

From respect comes great love...sassylee

posts: 6036   ·   registered: Oct. 2nd, 2014   ·   location: Southeastern United States
id 8707318
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zebra25 ( member #29431) posted at 3:07 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Our hospitals have been running at over 100% capacity.

91% of ICU covid patients are unvaccinated. The remainder have compromised immune systems. This supports the vaccine keeping people from getting very sick and out of the hospital.

Our ED wait time is 10-15 hours. Patients are in beds in hallways waiting to be moved. Same day surgery beds have been converted to in patient beds. At times ambulances have not been able to unload their patient.

There is a shortage of medical staff. Where are the staff/nurses supposed to come from to administer these extra treatments plus handle the extra patient load in the hospital?

The medical staff is doing a great job and should be commended for their efforts.

"Don't let anyone who hasn't been in your shoes tell you how to tie your laces."

D-day April 2010

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 DragnHeart (original poster member #32122) posted at 3:18 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

It was NOT my intention to create a vaxxed vs unvaxxed debate here.

I simply see unnecessary rage by both sides directed at officials for imposing restrictions and mandates again.

Restrictions and mandates meant to prevent a collapse of a medical system already stretched to its limits.


...but no one seems to even want to know WHY I have not gotten vaccinated.

 

I have asked. A few times actually.

Why the resistance?


Some people cannot for medical reasons. I get that. But what other reason is there not to?


Why can one accept the science behind the flu shot, immunizations we have all had (polio, measles etc), tetnus shot, monoclonal antibodies to treat covid but NOT the science of the vaccine proven to reduce your chances if needing hospitalization?

Me: BS 46 WH: 37 (BrokenHeart911)
Four little dragons. Met 2006. Married 2008. Dday of LTPA with co worker October 19th 2010. Knew about EA with ow1 before that. Now up to PA #5. Serial fucking Cheater.

posts: 24066   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2011   ·   location: Canada
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Want2BHappyAgain ( member #45088) posted at 3:35 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Deleted because I realized I was jacking this thread. I apologize DragnHeart. I will start another thread smile .

[This message edited by Want2BHappyAgain at 3:39 PM, Tuesday, January 4th]

A "perfect marriage" is just two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other.

With God ALL things are possible (Matthew 19:26)

I AM happy again...It CAN happen!!!

From respect comes great love...sassylee

posts: 6036   ·   registered: Oct. 2nd, 2014   ·   location: Southeastern United States
id 8707330
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Want2BHappyAgain ( member #45088) posted at 3:55 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Why the resistance?

That's the issue Dear Lady. There is NO resistance from me and countless others who are not getting vaccinated. Yet it is SEEN like there is resistance by MANY. The question I ask is WHY is it seen like this?

YES...I have seen the fringe...on BOTH sides. It shouldn't be this way. It is just as FRUSTRATING to me as it is to you to see it from MY side. I don't get WHY so many people are quick to judge like this.

I can show CDC statistics as to WHY it isn't safe for some to take the vaccine...as well as talk about family members who have ended up with life altering issues BECAUSE they took the vaccine. It doesn't seem to matter. It ONLY seems to matter that I have NOT taken the vaccine. WHY?

YOU have very valid reasons for taking the vaccine for you and your children. I completely understand that and think you are making a GOOD choice for doing it smile .

All I have asked others is to PLEASE understand why there are some people who feel they are making a GOOD choice in not doing it. It isn't black or white...or the choice would be very simple.

A "perfect marriage" is just two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other.

With God ALL things are possible (Matthew 19:26)

I AM happy again...It CAN happen!!!

From respect comes great love...sassylee

posts: 6036   ·   registered: Oct. 2nd, 2014   ·   location: Southeastern United States
id 8707334
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 4:12 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

But the therapeutic pill by pfizer is 90% effective in keeping Covid patients OUT of the hospital. The monoclonal antibody treatments have proven to be very effective as well. Yet NO ONE is talking about them rolleyes.

Thank you for that. And you thank me and your neighbors and your fellow taxpayers, because they and I are paying for treatments that are much more expensive than the vaccines.

But how do you make amends to the the people who suffer more than necessary - and even die - because ERs and ICUs are filled with unvaxed people?

Who in their right mind thought vaccines would cure or totally prevent Covid? Certainly people saw successes expressed as percentages. Certainly they knew vaccines just reduced the chances of getting infected and limited the impact of Covid. The testing for the Pfizer and Moderna vaxes showed much higher success rates than expected, but I have a hard time with anyone who saw 96% and turned that into 100%.

The 'mainstream media' never gets it completely right. But each element of alternative media usually has an agenda, and a half-way intelligent human being knows that and reads/listen/looks critically at what the alternatives are putting out. And a lot of alternative media is simply filled with demonstrable lies.

Health care workers fired for not getting vaxed? Who in their right mind would want to be in contact with an unvaxed service provider when dealing with their own health? My vaxed but not boosted son is recovering from Covid - worst sore throat ever, and he still isn't back to normal after 2 weeks. I'm happy to wear a K95 mask in enclosed public spaces even though I don't expect more than a small increase in preventive effect. I'm retired, so I just want to avoid the pain. If I were raising kids and going to work, I think I'd be wise to take even more care. That small increment of protection may just be the difference between getting and not getting infected.

IOW, it's your health and your comfort that we're dealing with.

Why the resistance?

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 27113   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
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zebra25 ( member #29431) posted at 4:33 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

"Health care workers fired for not getting vaxed"

This is not always the case so don't assume all health care workers have been vaccinated. Hospitals have allowed exemptions for employees wishing to remain unvaccinated.

What does that mean that people are not talking about the monoclonal antibody treatments? Who isn't talking about it?

"Don't let anyone who hasn't been in your shoes tell you how to tie your laces."

D-day April 2010

posts: 2762   ·   registered: Aug. 25th, 2010
id 8707347
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 DragnHeart (original poster member #32122) posted at 5:45 PM on Tuesday, January 4th, 2022

Deleted because I realized I was jacking this thread. I apologize DragnHeart. I will start another thread 

Its perfectly find!

We can have open dialog here.

Me: BS 46 WH: 37 (BrokenHeart911)
Four little dragons. Met 2006. Married 2008. Dday of LTPA with co worker October 19th 2010. Knew about EA with ow1 before that. Now up to PA #5. Serial fucking Cheater.

posts: 24066   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2011   ·   location: Canada
id 8707372
Topic is Sleeping.
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