SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Wow. Just Wow.

I have just seen this, and read it all in one sitting.

It is overwhelming.

Me same What'sRight.... just fucking WoooooooooWza.

Sigyn I have been a part of SI since Nov 2018 - 13 days after my first dday. I have read thousands of JFO stories and posted tons of responses/replies. And I have never ever been more sure of a BS than I am about you honey. Your grace with all of this (ALL OF THIS still just smh over here) is truly awe-inspiring. Even if you feel like you haven't handled things perfectly and been a badass, you are fucking amazing and you are gonna be okay.

I'm glad you're moving forward with the separation (and eventual divorce) - I think getting some true physical distance here will be very good for you and give you some much needed clarity and emotional processing space. My situation wasn't even a quarter as horrific as yours is, but when I separated from my xwh it was the first time since dday that I felt like I could breathe a whole breath, it was the first time I felt like part of me wasn't drowning. I hope it does the same thing for you.

Sending you and your son so many hugs!!

I’m a broken record on here about what happens to people like your husband. Either through an accident of birth or a rotten childhood of a combination of both he has basically split into two people. He’s not mentally ill. It means he as an adult has the capacity to stop at red lights, take out the garbage, pay taxes on time, get ready for work, and a myriad of other things that we do every day. On the other hand this child inside of him has messed up his sexuality so now he is a kid with a group of toys and he gets playmates but instead of just playing inside the playpen he is having sex, all sorts of it.

Sometimes, it is not what he’s doing away from you but what you have you witnessed in him through the years. A child does not pay taxes on time, a child does not stop at red lights and a child does not care about car tags, expired licenses. Does he get along at work? Is he always the victim? Does he react to life as a child? An adult pays attention and does the right thing most of the time and a child often times does not. There is an experiment that was online about parents leaving their young children with candy or cookies and being told not to eat them until the parents come back. Depending on the age and the maturity of the child they either ate the stuff or they did not. I would assume that’s the emotional age your husband is right now and he’s never going to get any better.

The word narcissism is almost trite now because we use it all the time. What I think is much more telling is that you are dealing with someone who never emotionally got out of a very young age.

I said he was not mentally ill but there is tragically something very wrong with him and it spilled out into your life in a very toxic way. I always think you need to look at reality very clearly and that’s what you’ve done. He will be a child forever.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 11:13 PM, Monday, February 6th]

I respectfully disagree.

"Child" does not necessarily mean selfish and cold. And "adult" does not necessarily mean responsible, empathetic, and giving.

I would guess that a very large percentage of us on this site have children who would never behave in this way. Perhaps not the sexual nature of the issue, but the disregard for the feelings of others. My boys, who have all had birth issues and substance abuse issues from their birth mothers, have had / have problems, but have never to my knowledge behaved this way.

And, TBH, I don’t believe I am a child, but sometimes I file my taxes late, sometimes I don’t come to a full stop at stop signs, and I have gone to court on more than one occasion for completely overlooking keeping my car tags up-to-date. With a lot on my plate I can be scattered and even irresponsible regarding those things. But I don’t believe I’m a child.

And more on point, I think to equate this man’s behavior to that of a child is a disservice to children everywhere. I think he makes free choices, and he doesn’t seem to care who it hurts. That doesn’t mean he’s a child. It means he Mean. Uncaring. Selfish.

But we do agree about one thing. We don’t believe he is going to change in any meaningful way.

ETA: I don’t mean to imply that I know your husband personally, I’m just basing my input on your characterizations of him.

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 4:44 AM, Tuesday, February 7th]

After reading about your basement find, I go back to additional to secrets. My husband had some clothing and I asked him too dress in it. He did and that was that,mit wasn’t exciting due to the secret being out. My husband realized through therapy the transference from his mother to me.

I sadly think your husband is to far gone to be honest about anything. I know for a short time he did stupid stuff like buy old fashion razors and shared the secret with my daughter, she ended up not realizing it was a secret and bringing it up to me. I would talk to your son’s therapist about your ex not grooming shared secrets. I hope this makes some sense.

T/j. Whatsright, I think we are dealing with semantics here. When I say "child" I am not imagining a kid in a hamster wheel. All of his emotions are stunted. He is basically a hologram. There is no there there. She describes a man whose entire life is one of secrets and lies revolving around sex because humans are sexual creatures. His issues are buried so deeply because except for a handful of folks people have little memory of childhood. Maybe a trip to Disney land/world but most of it is not retrievable unless a therapy like EMDR can pull out what they are. The problem is his sexual issues are probably fixed, as in permanent. He appears to know his childhood is responsible for his mess but it doesn’t appear he is capable of finding a solution.

I don’t see any way this marriage is salvageable.

The to~ing and fro~ing feeling like you are healing then being plunged back into despair is I think from my armchair psychology degree akin to extinction burst.

Each time it does get easier to come back from.

I have strange waves of euphoria at times like I've been freed from prison which I suspect is some part of the healing process.

Likewise the narcissist goes through extinction burst once primary supply is removed, making more and more desperate grabs to get back what has been lost ~ hence why the riskiest time for someone in an abusive relationship is immediately after they leave.

You'll recover from this it just takes time ~ your husband will always need others to validate him.

It is very sad but best thing you can do is remove yourself from his purview inasmuch as it is practical.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 9:56 AM, Sunday, February 12th]

Ugh. I’m so sorry. I feel so much rage on your behalf.

Get away from this man. Far, far away. Lean into the Zillow search and do what you need to do to get yourself and your son extricated from this sick, rotten-to-the-core, unrepentant narcissist.

Once you are safe do not hide his ugliness from people. Be blunt and direct and open about who he is. People need to be warned away from him.

Checking in, Sigyn. I hope that your absence means that you are moving forward on your path and that you haven’t had any more major bumps. Your thread continues to be such a source of insight and wisdom from so many on this rotten path we’ve all shared. Hoping that you, your son, and your new pup are finding peace and joy on your way. Sending hugs, sister.

Thanks for the messages everyone, I really appreciate it.

February was so sucky and I'm glad it's over.

Rewinding, I might not have explicitly said that I found out WH had been going to sex clubs - this is on top of the sex workers and the longer term OW that called themselves "girlfriends"! The box I found in the basement with the men's lingerie and straps and dildos and lube was very likely his stash of fetish-ware for his sex club trips. So we can add that on to the pile of grossness I'll never get out of my mind! Thanks, WH! Based on my detective work after finding the business cards in his sex stash, I also now feel very strongly he was with men as well as women.

Meanwhile WH spent February writing me these LONG emails that were I think supposed to be love letters, filled with memories and nostalgia about our marriage and compliments to me and alleged transcriptions of his personal journal entries over the years about what a great wife I was and how much he loved me! He also wrote me two original songs and recorded himself playing and singing them and texted the videos to me.

I actually had to explain to him that I actually never doubted that I was a good wife or that he loved being married to me, HE was the shitty HUSBAND! I don't need reassurance that he thought I was a good person, HE was not a good person! My character does not need rehabilitating here! Even in his attempts to woo me back, it's like he still thinks that I need to hear that he loved me, or that I was a good wife instead of the reality, which is that he loved me/had a great wife while also actively spending our money on sex workers and sex harnesses and sex clubs and girlfriends and that was the part of the marriage that was not working.

He will never, ever understand that every protestation that his life was objectively good while he did those things is another nail in the coffin of our marriage. He was not reacting to stress, he wasn't showing poor coping mechanisms when times were hard. He was demonstrating who he was under the best possible circumstances. How can he not see this?? Someone explain how he can think this puts him in a better light! I actually don't want to know.

In other news WH moved to a new rental house March 1st, and he said he picked it for ME. Because our separation agreement included language about WH getting the right to live in our marital home if we should divorce, something I eagerly conceded (he doesn't know how eager I was, my attorney used it as a bargaining chip), WH I guess expected me to swap homes with him 'in the event of divorce' and in his reckoning I would therefore move into the rental home he chose. So he generously chose the home 'for me'. And of course besides that being a completely weird thing to do, his rental home is nothing like anything I would ever choose for myself!

And this highlights the patterns that have existed forever between us. WH does things 'for me' that are clearly for himself, based on his needs and not mine, and just uses the words 'for you' to make it seem like he's being generous. Even his valentines gift to me left on the front stairs this year was a bouquet of roses (his favorite, not mine) and chocolates (also his favorite, not mine).

But meanwhile he's telling everyone including my family about all of this work he's doing to win me back. Agreeing to move out, picking a house for me, love letters, original songs, chocolate and roses.

None of which I want! None of which any person who knows me would think that I wanted.

All I wanted was my husband to not be living a secret life. Absent that wish, that he would have admitted to me what he was doing 15 years ago. Talked to me about his urge to have sex with the entire world. Told me when he knew he wasn't a monogamous person. Respected me enough to give me the choice to stay in our actual marriage rather than a fantasy. Respected my body. Respected my pregnant body especially. Respected our marital money. Responded to my pain with compassion and honesty. Written a time line! Itemized his sex work spending. Told me he was sorry. Accepted responsibility for his actions.

What a shitty wish list that is! My marriage was so trashed that 'how about not going to a group sex dungeon!' would have been an appropriate Anniversary gift to me. Unbelievable.

On the positive side, I am going away on a solo vacation to see the Northern Lights! I've never seen them before and have always wanted to spend the night in one of those glass domes where you can lay in bed and look straight up at the sky so that's what I'm doing! I'm really excited!! I need time alone pretty badly right now, but more than that I need something to look forward to, something that is just for me, something that makes me feel like I still have a place in the universe, that I can still feel anticipation and hope and awe. And if the lights don't shine upon me, I bet the stars and sky will still be phenomenal. I need this so very badly.

Also I told my therapist that when I get back, I want to move forward with the divorce. I want to feel ready right now, and in some ways I do, but the day to day pain of living in my house and the insanity of the neverending revelations make me feel sick and stuck in amber. I need to feel like I have momentum and that there's some part of me, the person I am other than a wife, that is worth liberating. As brave as my words to my WH were about how I know I was a good wife and that he was the problem, the reality is that inside I struggle with feelings of worthlessness and a lot of shame. I know I didn't do anything that warrants what he did, but feelings aren't always rational. I want to do something that reminds me of who I am inside. So - I want to be cuddled up and warm and safe and ponder the universe, hopefully with some magical lights and if not that then gorgeous sunsets and beautiful stars.

And this highlights the patterns that have existed forever between us. WH does things 'for me' that are clearly for himself, based on his needs and not mine, and just uses the words 'for you' to make it seem like he's being generous.

Color me shocked that a man delusional enough to pick out a house for you during the utter breakdown of your marriage has routinely given you things that you don't want and expect credit for it! You don't say!

He will never, ever understand that every protestation that his life was objectively good while he did those things is another nail in the coffin of our marriage. He was not reacting to stress, he wasn't showing poor coping mechanisms when times were hard. He was demonstrating who he was under the best possible circumstances. How can he not see this??

Because it's not about you and looking good to you. It's about him. Don't worry, HE still thinks you're an amazing wife. HE still loves you. HE is still fighting for you with love bombing. And HE is also narcissistic enough to think that some flowers and a couple of songs make up for YEARS of disrespect and lies. This is why HE will play the victim when anyone asks because look at all these lovely things he's done that you didn't ask for! How ungrateful! All this over a little sex without emotions!

You, your feelings, and your thoughts aren't anywhere in this equation otherwise maybe he'd be able to remember your favorite flowers and chocolates for once. Maybe he'd reflect a little on how much his efforts now measure up to what he has actually done to you. Flowers, songs, and chocolate ever day doesn't even begin to fix it! He is like many people with narcissistic behaviors. He's the protagonist of the story, the star of the show, and you're lucky to be a supporting cast member who should settle for his words of love and devotion while turning a blind eye to his misdeeds. He barely even registers other people as having feelings, needs, and wants outside of his own. That's why he gets you things that HE would like and doesn't put any thought into what you may want as if you should just be happy with what he likes and what he wants.

The trip to see the Northern Lights sounds lovely. Good luck and I hope for your sake he stops harassing you with all these unsolicited acts of selfish good will.

I want to be cuddled up and warm and safe and ponder the universe, hopefully with some magical lights and if not that then gorgeous sunsets and beautiful stars.

That sounds absolutely fabulous! I hope the lights are out in full force for you.

Oh, your STBXWH sounds like he's doing lots of "work". Just about anything EXCEPT focusing on himself and making changes to him. And he picked a house for you, how kind. See how much work?

Hang in there and I'd love to hear about your trip.

But meanwhile he's telling everyone including my family about all of this work he's doing to win me back. Agreeing to move out, picking a house for me, love letters, original songs, chocolate and roses.

Image management.

Doubt very much the "work" he's supposedly doing is based on ANY realistic hopes/goals he may have. It's all about controlling the narrative. He has to edit the script 'cause it's all about him - he's the star in his own play. So what can he do to recast his current role (liar, cheat, thief, hypocrite, etc. etc.) with minimal effort? Hmmmm. In his simple, self-centered mind all it takes is a few easy peasy romantic flourishes to make himself into the hero.

"See people - look at what a great guy I am!! And what an ungrateful meanie Sigyn is. I'm trying soooo hard to woo her back. Roses! Songs! Chocolate! See how haaaaard I'm trying? ME ME - I'm the prize here."

And this highlights the patterns that have existed forever between us. WH does things 'for me' that are clearly for himself, based on his needs and not mine, and just uses the words 'for you' to make it seem like he's being generous.

Of course the roses and chocolates aren't what you prefer. Or the house you now live in. Or the rental house he's telling everyone he chose especially with you in mind. And on and on. Your wants and needs don't matter. He only wants (or knows?) what HE thinks are the most effective props in HIS story. Sorry to say, I bet gifting his extra curricular girlfriends with stereotypic "romance" props like roses and chocolate was a standard bit of staged theatrics he performed.

His self-made world seems so pathetic, narrow and sad. So disordered. You deserve so much more than to be treated as a two dimensional bit player he thinks can be manipulated to fit his script. Once you are free from the deception and this warped version of what he thinks a marriage should be, I know you will create a new REAL, meaningful life. It will come naturally because you are authentic - unlike him, you are, and always have been nothing but your true self.

Sigyn, have a great trip! Cozy up and cherish you. Keep doing things for yourself that YOU like.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 4:23 AM, Thursday, March 9th]

Wow, Sigyn. So good to hear an update from you, and glad you are making progress on getting your life back.

Your soon to be ex WH Just Does Not Get It. Any of it. I imagine facing his truth might cause an epic meltdown that may take a lot of therapy to piece back together. I also imagine he will protect himself at all costs so that reckoning will not come.

I hope you find your way to controlling the narrative of the sordid story he thrust you into. I couldn't help but think as I read this last update how happy I was for you to head into this saga with forewarning, eyes wide open and seeing what he was doing so clearly. You may not feel like it now, but you have managed to save yourself so much more agony and confusion with your steady and studied approach to getting out of infidelity and getting your life back on track.

I also couldn't help but cringe a little at the love bombing, the songs, the wrong gifts, the presumptuous house. It is so tone deaf, and so far from anything he should be doing if he were really interested in getting you back in his life, if he truly knew how to love you. You are coming to the realization that you aren't as important to him as the idea of you is. You truly deserve so much more than you have gotten, all the way through your deceptive marriage. I believe you will find yourself in your best life ever, once you are clear of the mess he made of it all.

I hope that new pup is still bringing you and your son joy and a lovely distraction. Mine is a handful and I am thankful for the love and laughs she brings me every day.

I think your trip sounds like the absolute perfect gift for yourself. I'll be hoping for a spectacular light display for you, but agree that the stars and sky and quiet alone will do wonders to heal your soul. Safe journeys. Stay strong.

My husband had some clothing and I asked him too dress in it. He did and that was that,mit wasn’t exciting due to the secret being out.

I pulled this excerpt because it speaks to an epiphany I had after spending months (ok, years) in trying to understand the two so apparently contrasting sides of my XWH. After I processed so much of the "trash" side I was still stuck trying to reconcile all the good sides. How could these extremes exist so comfortably in and for him?? And damn it, I missed the good side of him.

But that was when I realized that the good could exist only because of the bad. The good stuff was the catalyst for the bad. The yin and yang of him, if you will. He was so terribly uncomfortable with anything that actually resembled real intimacy that he had to secretly create experiences that destroyed it. IOW, it was NEVER going to just be good…there was no therapy or self-work that was going to change that. Because it was the good that ultimately felt so displeasurable/threatening to him.

Way too much time spent trying to understand an extremely dysfunctional perspective…but recognizing the good as being the catalyst was what finally put my dissonance to rest. I’ve often referred to all the kind things he did as the "cyanide" in my coffee he so generously fixed each morning - because the good was MY hook. It’s what kept me in an otherwise obviously abusive relationship. But it was also his hook that then required his secretive, naughty behavior. In that regard, there was then no longer any good.

I am so appreciative of you all here, you really, truly get what's happening inside and out in a way that even my closest friends and family can't (and thank god they can't, I think it only comes with experiencing it first hand), and I'm so sorry you all get it because you've walked this shitty awful path. But I'm also grateful you're willing to keep sharing that understanding with me.

Sorry to say, I bet gifting his extra curricular girlfriends with stereotypic "romantic" props like roses and chocolate was a standard bit of stage business he performed.

I don't know if I ever mentioned this but I actually asked the Whistlesucker OW if she got gifts from him! She said in a way yes because he always paid for the place they stayed, but he'd never gotten her a gift per se except the first time they met in person, when he gave her (drum roll) "fancy chocolate truffles from a local shop". I'm positive it's the shop that is indeed local to our house, and is also where he got me the Valentine's gift chocolate. So yes, his efforts in winning his wife back are just about on par with his efforts to impress his internet side piece.

I realized that the good could exist only because of the bad. The good stuff was the catalyst for the bad. The yin and yang of him, if you will. He was so terribly uncomfortable with anything that actually resembled real intimacy that he had to secretly create experiences that destroyed it. IOW, it was NEVER going to just be good…there was no therapy or self-work that was going to change that. Because it was the good that ultimately felt so displeasurable/threatening to him.

This is another moment when I'm completely blown away by things clicking into place in my mind. The bolded part... I feel like this is something completely critical to my WH as well, but I can't quite put the pieces together with examples that show this - but reading it rings SO MANY bells in me. Thank you for writing this and would you mind if I wrote this down and shared it with my therapist as something someone wrote that resonated with me?

Also I'm so sorry you had/have a husband like mine! It's bewildering. The joy of secrecy, the power they crave and get from hiding parts of themselves from the one person who they were supposed to trust. Like the very intimacy of marriage required them to have a second life. The potential to be their real selves scared them into a secret room in their own mind, in their own life. It feels paradoxical. Power from secrecy, security from evasion and disguise.

I also couldn't help but cringe a little at the love bombing, the songs, the wrong gifts, the presumptuous house. It is so tone deaf, and so far from anything he should be doing if he were really interested in getting you back in his life, if he truly knew how to love you.

It's somehow not shocking, because he's never been a good gift giver but he prides himself on being one so I always made sure to appreciate the effort, rationalizing that that's what gifts are about. The intention. I think in my uncharitable moods I did think that the reason he's a bad gift giver is that he buys things not just for me but for everyone based on his own preferences - but I always shrugged it off as we all have flaws and that was a minor one - so I thought - and totally low stakes. But it's not, is it? It's not low stakes if the reason he failed to think of what the other person would like is because he failed to think of the other person at all. Or because the gifts are a symptom of his blindness to who I am. Or maybe his indifference? I don't know yet if it's that he can't see me for who I am, or if he sees who I am and just doesn't care. Or if he just sees a reflection of himself when he looks at me. All equally dehumanizing, in the end.

I don’t really come on SI much these days other than to see whether Sigyn has updated, and how you are going. You are really on the road to recovery, and smart enough to edge him out of your life whilst he somehow believes he is in control. The gift anecdote reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons where Homer buys Marge a bowling ball for her birthday. She suspects he really bought it for himself as the ball has "Homer" written on the side. I dont think Homer had a secret sex basement but same principle applies.

On a separate but related issue, I’ve been following the Murtaugh trial, like the rest of the planet. The entitlement is astonishing, but familiar to anyone who has lived with a disordered person. He used every trick in the book to avoid responsibility and conceal his real self, but eventually got his comeuppance.

Enjoy your travels.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 10:12 AM, Thursday, March 9th]

I cringed so hard, too, at your husband's grand romantic gestures.

It's like everything he knows about relationships is based on what he's seen in romcoms... or pornography. It's all a performative representation of what he thinks love and passion are supposed to look like. In reality, he's only capable of lust and the desire to "possess" people.

He is pathetic. He lives with such a bad addiction that it has made him delusional. His delusions are that he’s a good husband to you, and that you love him, and will forgive him, and that everything will just go back to being OK. He no more realizes the damage he has done to you and your marriage than a two year old would know. He has no concept of reality and yet you can’t call him mentally ill, but he is sick in his soul.
Thank goodness you are moving on, slowly but steadily.
This reminds me of Pandora’s box. To open it is to allow evil to escape. Every time you open another box more evil you see.
Your IC is so necessary right now.

My marriage was so trashed that 'how about not going to a group sex dungeon!' would have been an appropriate Anniversary gift to me.

I know there is pain behind it, but that's also pretty damn funny and I'm glad you have a strong sense of humor.

Hi Sigyn,

As a fellow member of the "Damn! my marriage was a sham/ didn’t know what my husband was upto" club , you have my utmost respect. You have handled all the blows with your head held high and a clear mind.
Your recent update got to me since I just told my WH this morning that I am barking up the wrong tree expecting him to do the right things. He just doesn’t get it. He is not capable of getting it.

I am glad you are taking time to travel and clear your mind. I need to plan something soon !

Take care !