SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You can take yourself out of the equation of being the one that made him the way he is. He was this way, already this way, from the time he was a child because he’s never gotten past that. It’s probably somewhat genetic and somewhat parenting but you had nothing to do with this. He could have married anybody and would still be this way. Please don’t blame yourself for his behavior. He brought that along with him like the color of his eyes and the size of his feet

You are an incredible lady ~ you have an Evelyn from Fried Green Tomatoes vibe going on ~ Towanda!

It would have been cathartic to read you had gone scorched earth, but since life isnt a b grade midday movie (although my life and most of the stories I read on here sound like the plot from one) I think you've taken the correct path. Ross Rosenberg says do not expose the covert narc as it is a dangerous move. You've let him exit with his public reputation still intact.

I can completely sympathize with wanting to exit the fakery, rather than divorce the person. I was sick of pretending this person wasnt who they really were ~ I had become the lie too.

One thing I would say is to accept that his relationship with his child is about his needs, not your son's. Just keep an eye on it. If there are no consequences, he will revert back to previous patterns of behaviour, but with and through your son. Make sure in your contact agreement there are rules in place regarding not just times and dates, but basic caregiving requirements. It sounds patronizing but he probably hasnt really ever cared for your son beyond the superficial when someone is watching and praising him up.

There is a guy called Robert Torbay on Quora who has some ideas about getting these sort of people to do what you need them to. It's not for the faint hearted. I prefer minimal contact/grey rock (Or one moms battle suggests yellow rock).

I'd love to know how therapy goes. Some of the books I read about trying to work with someone like this I cant believe it could work. They are driven by something different to us.
It would be a game of manipulation but I suppose we would take a bullet for our kids so it is worth a try.

All the best!

The complaints about you that arent even about you ~ the "who are you even talking about". It sounds like you havent gone down the rabbit hole of researching personality disorders (good for you because theres two years of my life I wont get back), but there are logical explanations about this provided by Sam Vaknin and Richard Grannon. The short explanation ~ your husband actually has no idea who you are, what your actual faults are (ironically you were both in the same boat there). It is irrelevant to his existence who you really are, he doesnt care. They really operate within a fantasy world. It's their comfort zone.

Being dishonest and selfish is egosyntonic ~ they feel comfortable with fakery and bullshit.

I will exit my armchair psychologists's chair now and again bid you adieu!

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 10:29 PM, Sunday, January 22nd]

hey sigyn, i’m steppin in the conversation a little late, but i don’t wanna give you advise as much as i’d like to share my experience with you if it helps. i know you’re into bullet points, so let’s do some bullet points (based on things that i’ve sorted through)… how about questions, answers, and triggers?

•questions

my questions always turned into rabbit holes for me. i didn’t ever feel like the answers were enough. i just always felt like it led me to more questions and i would never get to the bottom of my questions until i could feel like i was a fly on the wall in the room of all of the crimes that she was committing against me.

•answers

answers were always grueling punishment for asking. even if they weren’t the whole truth, they were always crippling, and there was always more answers… they weren’t ever the ones i wanted, they just took me deeper into the rabbit hole of more questions.

•triggers

all of the questions and all of the answers led me to a firing squad of triggers that i had no escape from. every time i went to town, i’d pass somewhere i was deceived…. i couldn’t walk through my own home without feeling like this is another place i got fucked over…

when i got to that place, i realized my only option was to (as you’ve said) cut my fucking arm off so that i could live

[This message edited by reborn07 at 3:56 AM, Monday, January 23rd]

This one below spoke really strongly to me, after all these years I do think that this one speaks very true:

your husband actually has no idea who you are, what your actual faults are (ironically you were both in the same boat there). It is irrelevant to his existence who you really are, he doesnt care. They really operate within a fantasy world. It's their comfort zone.

Being dishonest and selfish is egosyntonic ~ they feel comfortable with fakery and bullshit.

Your WS has lived such an ENORMOUS double life, much more then just the truly horrible stuff we all have lived thru with just one or possibly two or more affair partners, that you just have to understand that he lives a life where he does not know HOW TO TELL THE TRUTH. His dishonesty is his life. It might come from his childhood but who cares? It has gone on for his whole life and is a dysfunction that HE lives with.... he does not know you, the real you. He just yes'd you all the time, which seemed to feel like things were OK. When you live with someone who leaves all the decision making up to you (family life and home) and you live your life thinking they are telling you the truth so you feel like all is OK, until its not, then it becomes just a whole great big huge lie of a life that WAS OK on your end, because the person you trusted was telling you it was OK and you believed them.

When you love someone you feel you should trust them. Until the day you can't anymore.

Not only did you not really know him (cuz he never really let you know that) he was so busy with his multiple other lives that he never really knew you. Or does he know you now. Because if they did they would not be able to do what they do.

This is all so much to process.

Not only did you not really know him (cuz he never really let you know that) he was so busy with his multiple other lives that he never really knew you. Or does he know you now. Because if they did they would not be able to do what they do.

and

One thing I would say is to accept that his relationship with his child is about his needs, not your son's. Just keep an eye on it. If there are no consequences, he will revert back to previous patterns of behaviour, but with and through your son.

and

answers were always grueling punishment for asking. even if they weren’t the whole truth, they were always crippling, and there was always more answers… they weren’t ever the ones i wanted, they just took me deeper into the rabbit hole of more questions.

Because it's true, all of it - it's not "just" affairs, and it's not "just" the holes in my knowledge about everything he did, and who he really is. There's so much more to it than that. It's who he will be to our son, as a father and a coparent. It's someone who wasn't engaging emotionally intimately with me for the last 20 years. I've said this before but it's like a blemish on your skin and you think it's a pimple and instead it's an abscess that runs so deep it's systemic, septic, too far advanced to treat.

It would have been cathartic to read you had gone scorched earth, but since life isnt a b grade midday movie (although my life and most of the stories I read on here sound like the plot from one) I think you've taken the correct path. Ross Rosenberg says do not expose the covert narc as it is a dangerous move. You've let him exit with his public reputation still intact.

I want to be a badass, I really do, but I'm going to have to be a badass in slow motion! Honestly at first it was about getting my own emotional feet under me, has increasingly been about the practicalities of my son being supported and planning out where I want us to live next. I've been on Zillow nonstop and I'm actually daydreaming about a future life in one of those houses. I'm trying to envision what my life will look like. I have this fantasy vision of myself like the scene in Sleeping With The Enemy where Julia Roberts escapes from her abusive husband in their gorgeous modern home and moves into a dusty modest little rental, pulls the dust covers off old chairs and puts cheerful plants on the window sill.

My family has done a 180 (they had been asking me to try to work it out, before I shared many details) and now that they have more of the story they're encouraging me to move forward with the divorce sooner rather than later. My son has a lot of support and so do I. I honestly don't know why I'm still stuck in amber in this limbo between my old (fake) life and my new real one.

If anyone has any words of wisdom to snap me out of this and get some emotional momentum back, I'm open to it. I feel like the last few months of anger and outrage drained me.

I want to be a badass, I really do, but I'm going to have to be a badass in slow motion!

A badass in slow motion is DEFINITELY still a badass. Real life isn't a movie or a tv show. Its fun to watch people make snap decisions with witty remarks and much fanfare, but in real life it pays to be careful, deliberate, and sure. I'm not sure of a lot Sigyn, but I am sure you're a badass.

You've had the rug of your life pulled out from under you. It makes sense that its taking you a little time to get your head straight. The fact that you're envisioning your future without him means that you're headed in the right direct.

I have this fantasy vision of myself like the scene in Sleeping With The Enemy where Julia Roberts escapes from her abusive husband in their gorgeous modern home and moves into a dusty modest little rental, pulls the dust covers off old chairs and puts cheerful plants on the window sill.

Love this!

If anyone has any words of wisdom to snap me out of this and get some emotional momentum back, I'm open to it. I feel like the last few months of anger and outrage drained me.

We could invoke Kubler-Ross stages of loss blah blah blah, but I'm feeling your Sleeping With The Enemy fantasy, so let's run with that.

What did Julia's character do to fake her own death?

She made a PLAN (bet she made a list!), and then executed that plan:

Saved up some cash.

Bought and hid supplies.

Learned how to swim. In secret! Under an alias!

Scouted the terrain.

Did a practice run through.

Then, on a dark and stormy night, she swam out into the ocean and disappeared.

You won't have to do anything quite so dramatic to grow into your new, REAL life w/o him. A great start is to simply do what Julia did and START making a plan. You mentioned you like bullet point lists....... How would it feel to make some simple, short and direct lists? I luuuuuv spreadsheets :-), BTW. Doesn't mean you have to start checking off items on those lists right this minute. Writing down to-do items might help to make it more real. Then take it slow. Clean out a drawer. Then another drawer. Go drive by a few of those houses on Zillow. Just for fun. And so on, and so on, until things feel real and you're ready to act.

Then, on a fine and sunny day, after a montage sequence of you doing a little light house cleaning, you'll pull dust covers off your own Shabby Chic chairs. Voila! A magically decked out Victorian cottage worthy of a feature spread in Country Living! With scruffy - yet handsome - Kevin Anderson living next door!

Seriously, envisioning a new life is a GREAT first step. You're already headed towards that new REAL life! Cut yourself some slack and take this journey as slowly as you need to. One drawer at a time.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 9:55 PM, Thursday, January 26th]

hey sigyn, think about this like a road trip to a good place.. we’ll have fun with bullet points on the way.
•you’ve been driving for 12 hours and your butt hurts.
• you have to pee and the next exit is 50 miles away.
• you stopped at zaxbys 8 hours ago, and all you have to drink is melted ice, and it’s kinda luke warm.
• everything sucks on the radio.

it’s a shitty road trip, but it’s not where you’re going, it’s just where you’re at at the moment. i can’t tell you what you should do, but i can tell you what worked for me. i started removing everything from my life that connected me to that relationship. when i sold our house, the last time i drove away… it felt like someone took an anvil off of my chest. build a life that’s yours.. completely independent from what your life was when he had control. make your own life. when you finish letting go, you’ll enjoy YOUR life better than the one he controlled.

•don’t focus on the trip
•do focus on the destination

Hugs to you Sygn... I just read back through your latest posts and just wanted to say that you are not moving in slow motion.

You are five months from discovering a horrific betrayal and in that short time you have determined what is true, what matters most to you, where you stand and have fiercely protected your son and yourself. You know what you need to do and are going to do, and are just processing and accepting that you can't have what you thought you had or thought you wanted. There is much to mourn and let go of to allow you to move forward. It is a lot to process, and at five months out I was a delusional confused emotional mess with no plan but playing pick me and clinging to a fiction. You are rewriting your life with the truth laid out.

You are regrouping completely in a major way and there is nothing you need to apologize for or feel judgement toward yourself for your pace on this journey. It is great that your family is onboard and supporting you. Anyone who knows half of your story would not want to see you try to rebuild anything other than manageable coparenting with your troubled WH in his current state. Sadly, your husband seems stuck there, with no interest in growth or change or redemption and you are on the path you need and deserve, away from the disorienting disrespect and dishonesty. You will only get steadier on your feet and stronger as you work through the mess you did not make.

I always thought I was a badass, and would handle whatever life threw at me like a boss, and I mostly did, until this. Intimate betrayal brought me to my knees, and really made me question myself and my resolve. I'm happy to report I am getting my mojo back. Sometimes being a badass is about the long game, strong and steady, and not so much the dramatic showdowns or movie moment quick resolutions. Real life is so much messier. It takes strength to take your time and do what is best for this new version of your family, putting your son first and learning to put yourself second and not third or worse. There is so much strength in navigating life with your dignity, morals and sanity intact after such trauma.

Keep looking for that dream house, it will likely find you when it is time. Plan all the details, make a list of the must haves and know you can't have it all but you can come close. I did, and it was not the house I was looking for but it is the house I needed. Make sure you think about sunshine and windows and lovely nooks and spaces to call your own, and spaces to share with your son for the precious years you still have him home with you. He will grow up so fast it will make your head spin.
Celebrate letting go of things that remind you of what was lost, and fight to keep the things you want to take with you, that honor who you are.

You have a hard journey to get to that healing destination, but you have everything you need to get there. Lean on people who love you, and vent here or get advice from others here who have travelled your path. You deserve so much more than this crappy hand you have been dealt.

Take care.

Omg I found a hidden stash of things in the basement. Lingerie, at least some of it, maybe all of it, is for men, and sex toys that are also clearly for WH or for use with WH. A LOT of sex toys, like in the dozens. Lube. Souvenirs. Two notes. Business cards. I am so so sickened, WHEN will this end?? When will there ever be an end to the extent of his sexual life outside our marriage??? Why didn't he take his stash of memorabilia with him when he moved to the apartment or at any point since???? What was he doing with his body all of these years? How could he make love to me after whatever sex dungeon shit he was doing with other women? Why was I never given the option to consent to having sex with someone who did these things??

I'm so revolted, I'm just soul sick, I want to tear my own skin off to get away from the memories of him touching me after doing whatever he was doing with these other people.

I was literally gagging looking through this stash. I don't know what to do with it. I haven't told anyone yet.

Why didn't he give me a choice to opt out of this? Why did I not even have the chance to say no to being in his chain of sexual indulgence??

He must not have seen me as human! He didn't even give me a chance to keep myself safe! What kind of person DOES this to someone else?

{{Hugs, Sygn}}

Their sick psychopathology doesn't see humans/people. All are tools to be manipulated for their own purpose.

I was watching a couple of YouTube videos with Dr. Ramani, and I wrote down 2 things: Fundamental truths in your life have been totally violated and I don't know how to think.

These stuck out to me because she was talking about what infidelity trauma can do to the brain and dissociation. The trauma can blow the circuits in your brain so you really don't know how to think. It's part of the reason why I think infidelity is abuse.

I'm so sorry that you found the box of gross. I'm thinking there are a couple of reasons he didn't take it. He may have forgotten about it, he thought he could grab it later when you weren't around, or he left it so you would eventually find it.

Can you burn it? Sell or donate the lingerie?

leafields is absolutely correct. I am so sorry you keep finding out more and more hurtful things about his past. For your arrogant WH the world is a stage and people are just pawns to be manipulated for his pleasure. You only existed as a prop to make him look like the respectable, faithful family man, while he pursued whatever sexual perversions. I believe he took great pleasure in being able to fool people, you included. He left those items behind because the gig is up and he is not fooling you any more. Unless he makes a super effort to deal with his failings, he will just move on to the next unsuspecting victim and do the same things. I would destroy the gross items.

Yikes. That has to hurt. When I found out more after we had S, it helped solidify my decision. To D completely. It was a horrible blessing that propelled me to finally walk away for good. Maybe it will help you that way.

As always, focus on you and be gentle with yourself. This is so hard but you are doing great. You will get to the finish line.

I'm so sorry Sigyn I've kept up with your story and first let me say you are an extremely strong, capable, and level headed woman. I know that you'll pull through.

Secondly, you are right that he doesn't see you as a human. Like everyone else has said, you are a tool, nothing more. You're an accessory to him, the beautiful, faithful, loving wife and mother. He uses you, your marriage, your son, to project to the world what he wants them to see: A nuclear family worthy of envy and him, a classic family man. He does that so he will never have his morals or his values questioned while he pursues his revolting second life. I'm sure everyone who learned about his infidelity and the scope of it was shocked, right? Well of course they were, look at the life he shows off to everyone on the surface, look at all of his beautifully cultivated props (Again, you, your son, your marriage, your house).

I'm so sorry that someone has made you feel like this, it isn't fair.

In my rage for you my mind goes to revenge thinking: "Document it, all of it, take pictures to keep and have clear evidence that all of that grossness belongs to him. Maybe after the D is finalized (Should you go through with it) you feel like going scorched earth and revealing the depths of his depravity, who knows." Because he is the type of person who NEEDS control over how people view him, having that control over his warped narrative is the ultimate one up imo. Do you think he wants everyone to know the kind of perversions he's been indulging in behind his family's back? Probably not. Odds are that he forgot about it. With all of this going down and his grasp on you and his control over his secret life shattering, it's probably been harder for him to keep all of his secrets and lies in order. BUT this just my own anger for your sake speaking

Whatever you end up doing with it, I definitely agree with @fareast to destroy it in the end. I think the mere idea of these things EXISTING in the world (Should you sell or donate anything) will nag at the back of your mind, so completely obliterating them might offer you the best healing? Only my opinion though.

Again I'm so sorry you keep having these wounds torn open.

[This message edited by WonderingGhost at 4:49 PM, Wednesday, February 1st]

The thing is he hasn't ever gone through a real confession of what he's done. He verified only what I told him or implied that I already knew, and then ONE time he added (staggering) numbers to the number of sexworkers he's seen. He hasn't ever been open with me about it beyond talking about how he's a victim, he needs my help, he needs professional help, he needs understanding from me, he 'acted out sexually' because of a million reasons that aren't his fault.

He's never actually said what the extent of his actions were. So it's all a black box for me. If the OW hadn't contacted me and I'd stumbled across some other evidence like his firefox phone tabs, I would never have known most of the things I know.

And now I know that the things I don't know will never end. He wears lingerie? He is into bondage? We had a very healthy sex life and we did a lot of kinky stuff over the years, but he never said anything about these preferences! He didn't even hint, suggest, nudge me to try it, nothing. It's not like I'm a prude, we do have toys, outfits, I'm not shocked by the fact that he's into them but what I found is all very fetish, very dark, very suggestive of a world that he's been living in that I know nothing about.

I'm trying to calm down but the reality is he wanted a separation between me and his real self. He didn't tell me he wanted to try fetishy things NOT because he thought I'd say no or judge him - he knows I'm open and also we're married! All of this is completely on the table in a marriage! He always said he loved that about me. So the reason he kept this from me was just for the pleasure of keeping something from me. Yes I already knew this, that he gets off on keeping vital info away from me, but now I'm seeing it could be literally ANYthing! He could have a second family, he could have boyfriends too, he could have built a bunker in our yard and the reality is I don't even know what I don't know. And I might never. I might never know.

I'm so sorry Sigyn. The sad truth is no, you will NEVER know everything. Based on everything I've read about your WH and how he acts, especially on and after Dday, you will very likely never even know a fraction of everything And that is hard, it's very very hard. Please continue to make sure you are taking care of yourself as best as you can during all of this.

He hasn't ever been open with me about it beyond talking about how he's a victim, he needs my help, he needs professional help, he needs understanding from me, he 'acted out sexually' because of a million reasons that aren't his faul

Oh boy DOES he need help, but not from you. He is not a safe partner, and honestly I don't know if he ever could be, at least not for you. The depths of the lies, narcissism, deceit, is honestly mind-boggling. This kind of behaviour is something that requires years of therapy before he should even consider being in a relationship.

I don't even know if I'd say he gets off on keeping info from you, I'd go as far to say he just doesn't see you as an actual human being, so why bother telling you anything? It's kind of like, from my perspective, he sees you as a particularly sentient plant. He keeps you watered and taken care of enough for you not to wilt, and he likes showing you off to his friends and family ("Look how beautiful my plant is! Aren't I a good gardener?"), but you don't need worry about lying to a plant, you know? It's only there for looks and for what it can provide to him.

[This message edited by WonderingGhost at 5:30 PM, Wednesday, February 1st]

Oh god how disgusting. It will certainly make it an easy choice to stay the f away from him. I have no problem with out of the ordinary sexual practices in the context of a committed relationship, but in the context he did them in? That is nasty and unforgivable.

What a stranger he is turning out to be.

In my rage for you my mind goes to revenge thinking: "Document it, all of it, take pictures to keep and have clear evidence that all of that grossness belongs to him.

I was thinking the same thing. Blow his secret world UP!

So the reason he kept this from me was just for the pleasure of keeping something from me. Yes I already knew this, that he gets off on keeping vital info away from me, but now I'm seeing it could be literally ANYthing! He could have a second family, he could have boyfriends too, he could have built a bunker in our yard and the reality is I don't even know what I don't know. And I might never. I might never know.

That feeling of not knowing is crazy-making. I remember how frantic I felt and how putting together the story of what had happened felt like the most important thing in the world. But when you get down to the bare bones of it, what could you ever find out that would tell you more than this you've posted above?

It's possible that your WH is never going to answer all your questions, but maybe what you do know can be enough.