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I just don't believe anyone has any right to question his love for her or even imply it.

Like I said earlier.. no dog in the hunt. So, it's not about ME questioning his love for his WW. But it would probably be a stellar idea if the OP questions it. Sometimes, the love doesn't survive the betrayal, and when a BS really drills down to whether or not that love still exists, the answers become clearer. A lot of the time we don't think to check our preconceptions. We assume we still feel the same way because we have for so long. But then, when we do a really thorough gut check, we sometimes find something we weren't expecting.

It's not easy to break up a family. But if it turns out that the love is gone, he can do it with a clear conscience knowing that it's not just the best thing for him, it's better for her too. If, OTOH, the love is still there, it's not too late to save the relationship.

If the 2-5 years for the love to return is too long for the WS, they should start seeking better. The AP is probably available....oh wait..never mind.

[This message edited by 66charger at 1:44 AM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

Hi,

I am not sure how to react without being pulled into this (which I really don't want to). But thank you all for your input, no matter if your are pro R or pro D. It's good to hear both sides.

CT I love my wife (please, do not question it and don't use that love as a beater's bat and don't hold it over my head in a "if you rally love her, then you would/wouldn't" way), I think it's pretty obvious from my responses but I would be lying if I told you that unconditional and trusting love is not gone. But I love her, still. The problem is that love is not enough for a relationship work - it needs trust, respect and compassion. And I lost a good chunk of these for my wife after what she did. And I believe she didn't respected me during her A. She professes her love for me everyday, but it's just words, words from somebody who is (or was) able to lie while looking into my eyes, who tried to blame her A on me, who tried to make me apologize for rising my suspicions. So her words mean nothing to me now. I think you understand.

She does many things every day to undo the damage she did, but you can't simply wave a magic wand and say POOF, it's all gone and I am a new me. She's working on this with her IC, I can see some progress, but again, damage already done.

One of the battles I am currently fighting is to decide why she told me. It was either because she knew she's done if she goes to poly and wanted to come clean on her own rather than to fail poly or she finaly came to a point when she fully understands what her lies do to me and to us and came clean on her own as an attempt to repair the damage already done or to prevent further damage down the road. She tells me it's the latter, but as you can tell I have troubles believing this.

So yeah, I am focusing on D now, getting our things in order for it to be as clean as possible, without any unnecessary drama. My STBXW tried to backpaddle a few times during last few days on her promises, but all attempts were promptly nipped in the bud. Other than that, she's very quiet and I have a feeling she is trying to stay out of my way as much as possible without it affectioning my/our time with kids. We both spend more time with them than we ever did before. Not that we were neglecting them, but especially me - I was VERY focused on my job and it took me some time to change my focus on my kids who are the most important part of my life now. My job has now become only a way of how I support my family and not how I measure my worth. It's sad it took me so long, but I am finally there.

And when it comes to R, I am not completely closing door on that. I do not plan to date or anything, I don't think that's a good idea, but I plan on spending some time apart and focus on my kids and myself. If I feel like her remorse is genuine and she becomes a safe partner again I can see a future with her down the road. But I would probably never marry her again. Or anyone else for that matter.

Again, thank you all for your input and have a great day. And sorry for a wall of text.

Mr. F out

One of the battles I am currently fighting is to decide why she told me. It was either because she knew she's done if she goes to poly and wanted to come clean on her own rather than to fail poly or she finaly came to a point when she fully understands what her lies do to me and to us and came clean on her own as an attempt to repair the damage already done or to prevent further damage down the road. She tells me it's the latter, but as you can tell I have troubles believing this.

It's normal to ask yourself this question, but it doesn't make much sense at this stage.

First of all, you have 2 possibilities in your mind and both of these are based on the assumption that you know the whole truth. If she is still hiding something from you, this question and its possible answers lose its meaning. If you look at it this way, maybe you can let go of the fight in your mind. I think the question you should ask yourself at this stage is whether you know the whole truth or not.

Secondly, you are currently not open to believing answers that don't involve bad possibilities. So much so that if you get an answer with bad possibility, you may not believe it, thinking there might be worse and this is absolutely normal.

And when it comes to R, I am not completely closing door on that.

AS some other members said, I also think you are inclined to R, if there is not more than you know now, of course.

In the beginning even less than you know now was a dealbreaker for you. It is clear that nothing could bring you here except your love for her. Therefore, I think your love can't be questioned. On the other hand, who said love is superior to pride? I and many people live for our honor. I take care that there is nothing to violate my pride and if I was married, I would like my wife to take care of it too.

About R, again, you can think about that only once you are sure you really know the whole truth. In the current situation, you have to choose between the woman who goes to her AP's house to have sex and the woman who couldn't do it. But poly test maybe eliminates this choice altogether.

The problem is that love is not enough for a relationship work - it needs trust, respect and compassion.

I believe this wholeheartedly. Love is not enough. I hope you can finally find some peace when it's over and done with, and you can move forward. You so deserve it.

One of the battles I am currently fighting is to decide why she told me. It was either because she knew she's done if she goes to poly and wanted to come clean on her own rather than to fail poly or she finaly came to a point when she fully understands what her lies do to me and to us and came clean on her own as an attempt to repair the damage already done or to prevent further damage down the road

That's a question that can be answered with a polygraph.

Mrs F, did you tell him the truth about xxxxx, because you knew if you didn't, he would find out when you failed the poly?

That's a question that can be answered with a polygraph.

Mrs F, did you tell him the truth about xxxxx, because you knew if you didn't, he would find out when you failed the poly?

Reasons are murky , think multiple rationale adding together, and therefore poor poly questions. Reasons are more feeling based which are also somewhat flexible and shifting. You can mentally reframe rationales rather easily. You are better off to sticking to true factual yes/no about events sticking to those that matter most to Mr. F.

Did you have sex, as defined as x, with AP?
Did you have kiss or have sex with any other individuals while married to Mr F?
Is your timeline factually correct?

Those should have pretty black and white answers without ambiguity.

Mr. F - in your particular case you may want to consider dating after you divorce your wife and she moves out. First, it will help repair the damaged pride issue. Second, you can actually see if you prefer what’s out there as compared to your cheating wife. Third, and not to be underestimated, it will help with the current imbalance you feel in the relationship.

None of this happens to be about revenge. Instead, all of these things can serve a purpose. You will either want to and be able to gift the gift of reconciliation. Or, you will be able to move on. IMO, you owe no chivalry to your WW in that you vow to not cheat on her by dating. You will be divorced and it’s not called cheating if you date. Also, if your WW elects to date other people, then she’s helped make your decision here as well to move on. There are consequences to cheating and your WW hasn’t suffered any as of yet. Her being upset at herself for destroying you and your family is not a consequence. Just some thoughts.

"It's not easy to break up a family. But if it turns out that the love is gone, HE can do it with a clear conscience"??

If MrF decides to divorce his wife, it will NOT be him that "breaks his family up"!!

To imply that this would be on him his utter BS!!!

Nope this is on his wife who should have thought about this when she brought another man into their relationship.

Also, if MrF decides to move on and D his wife, why does that mean "the love is GONE"?

He obviously loves his wife, and as he's said (and others as well) sometimes love isn't enough to continue on with each other. He'll always love her but that doesn't mean that he'll feel she's a safe partner moving forward.

MrFibble is making his choice. That's great. SI was founded to help BSes find their way through this mess.

But others will read this thread. In CT's view and mine, people will be better off examining themselves and their motivations before making decisions. People will be better off if they transcend their dysfunctions. The closer people get to their core wants, and the closer people get to perceiving their realities, the better off they will be.

*****

his wife's neurotic pride was more important to her than the person she claims to love....

Yes, if pride is driving her, Horney probably would call it 'neurotic pride.' I'm good with that.

...but she's the damsel in distress and he's the villain and abuser.

I simply cannot understand how you see that as the only - or even the most likely - corollary of the sentence quoted above.

Being betrayed often brings real emotional issues for the BS to the surface. A BS's issues in no way mitigates the pain of the betrayal - it is more likely to exacerbate it. Issues in the BS in no way make the WS's actions at all excusable. It DOES give the BS an opportunity to heal old pain.

One big problem with neurotic pride is that it stands in the way of one's getting what one wants. In general, NP leads people to reject offers that they would be better off accepting. WRT infidelity, NP can cause someone to reject possible R when that person wants R; it can cause a person to hang on too long to an R that can't succeed. In some sitches it can even help a person go in the right direction.

A BS who is letting their own neurotic pride drive them, however, is doing themself a disservice. The best thing that BS can do is to learn to give up the neurotic pride. Only the BS can do that, and the BS's best bet, IMO, is to do it, irrespective of what the WS does.

The only way I can understand getting to 'she's a damsel in distress and the BS is an abuser' from 'the BS might be operating out of neurotic pride' is for 'neurotic pride' to trigger a defense, probably against an internally generated charge of neurotic pride.

Look, none of us is perfect. Most of us experience neurotic pride at many times during our lives, especially at times of ultra-high stress like during an A and the first few years after d-day.

It's not a problem when a person notices what's happening and changes behavior if the NP isn't helping. It's a problem when one lets NP drive one's life. It's a problem when a BS's or WS's NP keeps the BS or WS from healing.

*****

I have no intention of belittling anyone here. My intention is to remind people to look inside, to know what they're doing, and to make mindful choices.

Let's go back to Karen Horney:

Genuine self-esteem is based on realistic attributes and accomplishments and is generally expressed with quiet dignity.

Neurotic pride, on the other hand, is based on an idealized image of self and is usually loudly proclaimed in order to protect and support a glorified view of one's self.

Genuine self-esteem is available to all of us. We're all loving, lovable, and capable, and that's enough. Neurotic pride just gets in the way of living authentically.

Why the hell would you want to date a proven cheat and backstabber?

Westway - I think you misunderstood my post. Not date his WW. I was recommending that mr F date other people.

One of the battles I am currently fighting is to decide why she told me. It was either because she knew she's done if she goes to poly and wanted to come clean on her own rather than to fail poly or she finaly came to a point when she fully understands what her lies do to me and to us and came clean on her own as an attempt to repair the damage already done or to prevent further damage down the road. She tells me it's the latter, but as you can tell I have troubles believing this.

There comes a point at which you just have to choose what you're going to believe. That's hard to do when one is confronted with a history of deceit. We've been hoodwinked once, right? So we don't know whether we can trust our judgment after that. The thing is though, that your judgment is still good. So it's not about trusting her. It's about trusting YOU and allowing yourself to make the call.

What helps is KNOWING that if you're wrong, you've gained the strength to deal with it. If there's one thing infidelity has taught me, it's that I'm stronger than I knew. I'm NOT afraid of lies or of disappointment or of an unknown and nebulous future. I know that I can (and will) handle whatever comes my way. I got crushed my my WH's adultery.. but now, I'm uncrushable. And that's because I've got ME and I am enough. You'll get there too. Trust yourself.

The problem is that love is not enough for a relationship work - it needs trust, respect and compassion.

True. And if you're ever interested in how to rebuild those things, open up a thread in the Reconciliation Forum and I'll be glad to help with that as much as I'm able. In the interim, if you're looking for a reference, try What Makes Love Last: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal by John Gottman.

I recommend, if he files for divorce, that he spend some time healing,and working on himself before he dates anyone. I don't recommend that he use other women to make himself feel better.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:04 PM, Wednesday, March 17th]

Why would she confess when she had the outcome she preferred right in front of her. You were going to divorce her from the beginning. Divorce clears the ENTIRE slate. You stated you were not interested in a polygraph. Mrs Fibble approached you with the possibility of R after D and you embraced the idea. She knows you still love her and intimacy began once again. All she had to do was keep her mouth shut.

Then she chose to go against her best interest and blew it all up with 2 confessions.

The reson may be in your own timeline. The poly was not in play at the time of confessions. The catalyst was a conversation you recently had about honesty.

Her conscience roared its ugly head and she talked. Nothing else makes sense.

She doesn't appear to fear the test (at the moment). If she is begging for a polygraph, put your questions on hold and schedule the test right away. Your wife WANTS to prove this to you. She is either a complete idiot or you may have something close to truth.

The poly was not in play at the time of confessions

The poly was very much in play. For a few weeks,prior to her most recent confession. It was delayed, because of covid. They were calling places, to get one scheduled. Then she confessed to the burner phone, going to his house etc.

She didn't appear to fear the test, for weeks as she was lying. She was eager, insisting he knew everything. So the fact that she doesn't seem to fear the test NOW, doesn't mean much.

She knew he was going to find out, so she told some of the truth.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:15 PM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

My understanding is similar to Hellfire's:

Consecutively/simultaneously, there was a woman showing a great deal of interest in Mr Flibble which seems to have jarred loose a piece of the story from Mrs. F, which got Mr Flibble to asking further probative questions as he was slowly coming around to the conclusion that a polygraph might be a possibility he needed to explore in order to feel satisfied he had enough of the truth.

That pressure appeared to push Mrs. F into further action of releasing additional trickle-truth.

***

I am not seeing (Please don't take offense Mr Flibble) a lot of what I would describe as "conscience" from Mrs F, and frankly, looking back at her behavior from the cheating episode through present, I am seeing what I would describe as instability and lack of personal ethics.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 5:50 PM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

As for the polygraph, I am considering it. I originally thought that if she offers and has no problem with it I should take it as a sign she is telling the truth, but after reading Lifedestroyer's thread I am starting to have a lots of doubts. And I have confirmed everything is closed at least for next 3 to 4 weeks, so it looks like I am stuck for a month or two. We spoke again yesterday, went over her timeline again and she is still adamant that's all, two meetings and I know everything (which "you know everything now" is it? Third?). I am starting to feel a growing resentment

He was considering it,and had called a few places to get it scheduled, only to find out it couldn't happen for a few more weeks.

And, a few weeks later, she confesses more.

It is the classic " parking lot confession."

To which I would advise OP to continue with the test. The confessions are typically to ward off the test,hoping the BS will think they have the truth. And, very rarely, is that the case.

He was considering it,and had called a few places to get it scheduled, only to find out it couldn't happen for a few more weeks.

And, a few weeks later, she confesses more.

It is the classic " parking lot confession."

To which I would advise OP to continue with the test. The confessions are typically to ward off the test,hoping the BS will think they have the truth. And, very rarely, is that the case.

This right here. ^^^

Plus, she also trickled out that OM grab her hand and placed it on his junk. I don’t remember if this before or after he posted what HellFire quoted. I also believe that her “confession” during a lockdown bought her some time at home and not get her ass thrown out!

I know why she told me now, it's because of the stalker. I told her some time ago that in order for this to work I offer full honesty and expect it in return. I informed her right away about this other woman and I told her that this is how I want to do this, no hiding anything and full disclosure. I guess this pushed her to tell me. She understands it obviously makes me question if this is truly it (TT at it's best), and she again offered a polygraph.

This is the conversation I was referring to.

Maybe I am reading it wrong and maybe you are. Either way,even though the BTWs are almost always correct, let's all hope that this doesn't go sideways.

Back to work. The curtain is yours.

[This message edited by 66charger at 7:36 PM, March 17th (Wednesday)]