SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

And I sorry, I understand that all this back and forth with my STBXW must be very maddening for you all to read. You try to guide me and I often just piss all over your advice. But trust me, I try. I beat myself over every little slip I do, but it's hard to be so close to her. She sent me today a list of available appartmens to look at so I will do it tonight. At least a small step forward.

There's no reason for you to be sorry. For the vast majority of BS's, it's a back and forth process with lots of second-guessing. And in actuality, I don't think that's always a bad thing that we question our choices before we do irreparable damage.

I'm going to be honest with you right now, you've got a bit of a "burn the witch" drama going on with lots of pressure to make sure your cheater gets hers. You came here with a mind toward saving your marriage and keeping your home intact for your kids. Now, that's off the table because your WW lied. But what did you really think was going to happen when you applied the kind of pressure on her that you did? divorce and then maybe reconciliation? Trickle truth is ubiquitous and more so when the WS is desperate. It happens in almost every incident of infidelity. It's not surprising that she withheld the details. It would actually have been MORE surprising if she hadn't. But here you are, being wound up to think it's the worst thing that ever happened to anybody ever.

Right now, you're angry, and justifiably so. But you told me once that you had every intention of honoring your commitment to R, that it wasn't a "maybe someday". You've said more than once that you love your WW. But here you are, not even interested in finding out whether she's telling you the truth about whether the EA became sexual or not. R can't work when we stand on pride. It demands empathy. It insists on connection. It requires that we bend rather than break. And if you can't do that, if your pride is of more value to you than the woman you claimed to love, she's better off without you. She'll cry for awhile, but eventually she will recover and move on. And you'll do the same. But THIS moment, the moment when you could have saved it... will be gone.

Don't apologize for wavering. IMHO, you should be looking very, very carefully at what you really want right now. You don't answer to anyone here because no one here is going to have to live your life. That's going to be you, and if you stay on your current path, it's going to be without her. Make sure that's what you really want.

Wise words from ChamomileTea. Also, just my 2 cents, but NOW would be the time to get that polygraph done. You may think you don't need to know now, but there's a good chance you will want to know at some point in the future. An informed decision is a wise, intelligent decision.

Sorry I’m on mobile so can’t directly quote ChamomileTea but the stuff about trickle truthing being par for the course is only half of what she did that got us here.

It’s combined with her behaviour before D-Day. Saying she was just friends, gaslighting and blaming MrFlibble for being controlling and invading her privacy. Seeing how it was making him feel, being told how it was making him feel, and still going ahead with it all.

She stuck to her guns on it being nothing right up to SH texting her infront of him. I don’t wanna put words into MrFibbles mouth but people are focusing on stuff that isn’t specifically the issue anymore. Coming at this from their own angle. All the stuff she has done to protect herself and their marriage (no matter how misguided) from D-Day, All the physical stuff is secondary to the fact she maintained such an elaborate dishonesty whilst married, being coached and buying burning phones... secret meetings and so on whilst telling him nothing was going on to his face. All that is the nail in the coffin. This isn’t about how she behaved as a discovered WS. This is about what she did when she was his wife.

Mr. F

Count to ten. Get poly. go to IC and MC.

You are here now, only once. DEFCON 4 and you hold all the missiles. You can nuke everything later.

Divorce sucks. You may or may not use that option. If you do, I and many others can tell you, it is not a cake walk, family-wise, financial-wise, children-wise.

Take your time. Know everything you can about her, her actions and most importantly about yourself.

What do you expect her to do? She lied and left to her own dumbass devices she lied to protect lies. Why? maybe to save the marriage? Fear?

Empathy can flow both ways. Maybe the Golden Rule applies here?

You cannot get divorced.

Your appear to be all over the spectrum here. Patience. Learn. Understand. Make a choice of action and avoid reaction to emotional injuries.

(you may learn things that force divorce or you may learn you WW made some really dumb choices she regrets)

Seriously? Trying to guilt this man into reconciliation?

She lied for the same reason every other WS lies. And she lied until she knew he was going through with the polygraph. Does it really matter why she lied? Her husband was begging for the truth. She withheld that truth, until she knew she was going to be caught in her lies.

He should feel sorry for her because she cheated and lied to him?

MrF CAN get divorced. Sure, it's hard to divorce. It's also very hard to reconcile, and many of those who attempt it, do not succeed.

How about we all stop telling him what to do? He is a grown man. He can make decisions without being told what to do.

And we certainly don't need to shame him for those decisions.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:18 PM, March 15th (Monday)]

I very much agree with ChamomileTea. I’ll just add that the process is messy and not at all linear. Overall, you’ve handled this really, really well. Your WW has made some really poor decisions that countless other WW’s have made when floundering trying to save their M. At the same time, you continue to be hurt and want the quickest way out of your pain. Neither one of you have a roadmap for this and we don’t get to practice for this either. Now, I think you’re at a real crossroads and the decision you make is most likely going to irrevocably alter the course of your life forever. I think it’s time stop listening to others and the decisive action they want you to take and listen to yourself. What is it that YOU truly want? If you need time to fully answer this, take it. This may be the biggest and most important decision you ever make. Choose wisely.

[This message edited by Unsure2019 at 5:30 PM, March 15th (Monday)]

R can't work when we stand on pride. It demands empathy. It insists on connection. It requires that we bend rather than break. And if you can't do that, if your pride is of more value to you than the woman you claimed to love, she's better off without you.

At a loss for words. Wow. Just wow. Apparently to CT, your WW is the far better person here.

Some serious "Damsel in Distress" rationalizing and trying to guilt a betrayed man going on above!

Let's clear something up folks:

- Holding cheating women accountable for their cheating and lying is not "burn the witch"

- A betrayed man who has boundaries and doesn't want to let his wife walk all over them is not "burn the witch"

- People advising a betrayed man that he should to get to the truth before deciding to reconcile is not "burn the witch"

- People who express distaste for continuous lies and manipulation of a loyal husband from a female cheater is not "burn the witch"

***

MrFlibble:

You have done nothing wrong. You have behaved admirably. You have been more than fair to your wife, far more than she has earned.

Your wife has betrayed, lied, and manipulated you. She continues to do so.

I have noticed that when you recount her stories here, in many ways it sounds like you believe her: "She put the brakes on" and so forth.

One thing you can be pretty sure of, is that cheaters lie, and then they lie some more. Even team "Damsel in Distress" acknowledges that.

Cheaters lying is completely normal! I've been telling you that from the jump.

But that doesn't mean you have to accept it.

***

Some of the posts not far above have it completely wrong:

Empathy can flow both ways. Maybe the Golden Rule applies here?

You've been plenty empathetic. Overly so if you ask me.

But understand this. "The Golden Rule" is not to eat shit and smile.

The Golden Rule is: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

I think you have met that bar and surpassed it tremendously.

What is it that YOU truly want?

That is not the question. You know what you want: A wife who is loyal and does not cheat on you, who does not lie to you, who can be trusted.

That is not what you have, I am sorry to say.

The real question is: What can you live with?

Do the polygraph, and make the decision, according to your principles and boundaries.

Not my principles and boundaries, not the principles and boundaries of other betrayed men who may be a little salty, and certainly not people who show up on thread after thread defending cheating women and try to convince betrayed men to stay with them no matter how shitty they treat their husband.

Good luck to you.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 7:34 PM, March 15th (Monday)]

I think Mr F issue is that he has loved his wife 100% for a very long time up until the affair. It's hard to stop that completely. After all of her post D-day shenanigans and trickle truth he may be down to loving her 20% and that may stem from good memories of the ideal family and his deep love for her...

But the way she lied and conspired with the OM by using a burner (the mark of a pro cheater) going to his house at least twice. It is always "twice" because if the truth is four times there is no coming back from that, twice? That is a believable half truth that may be not so bad.

But Mr F seem like he feels he will never get 100% of the truth. So he is filling in the blanks with logical conclusions.

Mrs. F wrecked her chance at R with the lies and TTruth.

My prediction is that after a divorce and a separation, the Flibbles may end up in the same house again in the future.

Stranger things have happened.

Mr Fibble when it comes to infidelity, no WS is owed a second chance, not even the right to earn one, the gift of R is something the BS may or may not offer and even withdraw at any given time for any reason.

Before and after Dday you gave your WW multiple chances to come clean, she refused to do it and continued with TT (very common) despite your insistence and probing, so after she blew it, don't feel guilty for getting D, again you can always change your mind before it's final if you think it's worth it, or not.

I get the impression that you think that deep down this PA (PIV or not) is/was a deal breaker for you and if that's the case, that's fine too.

And if you can't do that, if your pride is of more value to you than the woman you claimed to love, she's better off without you.

Wow. This is the first and hopefully last time I see a BS shamed like this for their choice to D.

Mr. F, it's okay to D. It's okay to change your mind and R. You are NOT required to give your WW another chance if you don't want to. You weren't required to seconds after DDay. You're not required to if she is telling the truth. You're not required to if she is the most remorseful WW to ever exist. And that isn't and will never be a reflection of you or the love you had for her pre-DDay. Your only job is to make the decision that is best for you.

Mr. F,

Whichever route you take (R or D), make it he best for you. Not for anyone else; your WW, your kids, other posters.

The reason I say this, is that unless you are 'settled', everyone else will not be 'settled'.

Now, since your WW seems to be in the 'taking accountability' mode, ask her if she would have continued the A if you had not found out.

IIRC, her initial answer to that question was 'No', and she was quite adamant about it.

The reason for asking her this question, would be to see how honest she is with herself... this may give you some insight as to how she is approaching issues now.

If she is still answering with a hard 'No', then she could still be deluding herself. If she answers with some uncertainty if it would have continued (or gone further if it hadn't already), then she would have been doing some self-reflection (which is a good thing, as it would indicate some self-awareness).

On another issue, her vomiting of the new info could be that she finally realises that in order to even have another chance at R, she would have to throw everything out, and hope for a good outcome for her.

This is the first and hopefully last time I see a BS shamed like this for their choice to D.

I am most certainly NOT trying to shame the OP. I'd never do something like that. No WS is owed a second chance, and D is as viable an option as R... so long as it's what the BS really wants. But my question is... is it?

I can't help but notice that he's come to a point where he feels like he needs to apologize to this board for wavering, even though that kind of back and forth second-guessing is par for the course. It's completely NORMAL for this situation. He just posted a few days ago about his WW falling asleep with her head in his lap and how he's still very much attracted to her. There are still tender feelings there. But he's had less than two weeks to process these additional details and his feelings are quite likely still raw from anger. This too is normal. I don't see how it's "BS shaming" to check in and make sure this is REALLY what he wants, because two weeks ago it wasn't. How is he going to feel when his rage resolves? Will he be fine with it or is he going to wonder if he went too far? Who knows?

I've got no dog in this hunt. It's not going to change one day of my life if MrFlibble gets divorced and if his family dynamic ceases to exist. I won't have a hair out of place if that happens. But if he does decide to do a gut check and if it turns out that it's not what he wants, there are people here, like me, who can help him find his way through the healing process. He has said many things on this thread. He's said he's sure he wants a divorce, but that he also wants R, and now he's saying that he doesn't want R. But what stands out for me is that he said he loves that woman.

This may be an anonymous message board, but the people behind the keyboard are REAL. That's a REAL family. This isn't a game show and there aren't any prizes or do-overs. If there is ANY love left, if there's any chance left, there are a couple of people who love each other and some REAL kids who stand to benefit. I read so many hopeless cases here on these boards, this does not necessarily have to be one of them. And if it puts a few noses out of joint for me to say that, what can I say, I'm sorry. Certainly no disrespect was EVER intended toward the OP.

You cannot get divorced.

Fucking. Please.

Certainly no disrespect was EVER intended toward the OP.

Well then, mission not accomplished!

And way to gloss over this gem of a statement:

You've said more than once that you love your WW. But here you are, not even interested in finding out whether she's telling you the truth about whether the EA became sexual or not. R can't work when we stand on pride. It demands empathy. It insists on connection. It requires that we bend rather than break. And if you can't do that, if your pride is of more value to you than the woman you claimed to love, she's better off without you.

I am most certainly NOT trying to shame the OP. I'd never do something like that.

Um, that’s EXACTLY what you did by saying if he didn’t go full steam R then “she’s better off without you” - a clear value judgement against him. That’s precisely what shaming is.

Rather than deny you shamed the BS, how about simply recognizing what you did, admitting it here, and apologize to the BH for doing it?

This....

And if you can't do that, if your pride is of more value to you than the woman you claimed to love, she's better off without you.

Yea, no shaming language there at all.

But MrFlibble, does not seem like the type of guy susceptible to such language. So it’s probably moot point.

Flibble, the sooner she gets out of the house the better. You need distance, both physical and emotional, to clear your head.

That was really fucked up.

The decent thing to do would be to apologize.

And if you can't do that, if your pride is of more value to you than the woman you claimed to love, she's better off without you.

Speechless. Needless to say this wouldn't be an advice to a woman.

Classic misandry: if a man cheats it's his fault, let's hold him accountable. If the woman cheat's, it's still her man's fault.

She's a fragile damsel in distress, let's protect her from the predator and abuser.

This is why some men today avoid women like the plague. Don't agree but understand.

Some empathy for men? No way! Empathy for women? All the way.

It's called the empathy gap.

Just to vomit

MrFlibble, I followed your story. Stay strong, stay the course and stand your ground.

Throw a cheater; gain a life.

Even if it's a woman.

And you are entitled to whatever rules, terms and boundaries you set.

That's not pride, that's common sense.

[This message edited by QuitOrNotToQuit at 3:08 AM, March 16th (Tuesday)]

This is also one of the most classic anti male shaming tactics. It's a subtle variation of what is caled Charge of Misogyny!

The target is accused of displaying some form of unwarranted malice to a particular woman or to women in general.

The prime examples of this would be:

“You misogynist creep!”

“Why do you hate women?”

“Do you love your mother?”

“You are insensitive to the plight of women.”

“You are mean-spirited.”

“You view women as doormats.”

“You want to roll back the rights of women!!”

“You are going to make me cry.”

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate or force him to do something. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks like the one here.

[This message edited by QuitOrNotToQuit at 3:21 AM, March 16th (Tuesday)]