SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Deal with the facts of what you know. Her words are full of lies and meaningless.

She’s in sorry I got caught mode.That’s all this is.

Your wife is an accomplished liar. In order for her lies to work she needs you to talk to her.
She likes eating cake at your expense of course and will continue to push for more talk. She needs to tell you more lies to try and cover her previous lies.

If you talk you lose!!!

Get and keep a VAR on you at all times. False domestic violence claims get filed in these situations all the time.

I’ve seen a couple in the last few weeks. Don’t get caught flat footed here.

Fantasy is a two way street.

The wayward fantasy a lot concentrate on is not real blah, blah blah. Yet it’s real enough to lie, hide and deny. The deceit, sexual intimacy with their shiny new lover is real enough or they wouldn’t be engaging in it would they? My sister was a wayward. After many years later she’s sill glad she cheated, blew up her family and changed her children’s lives forever. That fantasy lasted awhile, huh.

Then there’s the fantasy of the betrayed. This isn’t really who they are. They would never do this to me and their family. Many live in denial because it’s a comfort zone. But the waywards actions show they did do it. Didn’t they?

Those that get strong quick come out of these situations best. Deal with realty and move forward.

Easier said than done. Use your brain because your heart will betray you.

[This message edited by Marz at 8:08 PM, Sunday, September 12th]

Congratulations, you're finally standing up for yourself.
I was #2 once myself. I finally had enough and told my FWW that either I became #1 or I'd file for divorce, her choice. That was seven years ago, now I'm her #1.

I think she is lying

No, you "know" she is lying.

OP, you have enough to make a decision to D. She isn't a bit remorseful. The VAR, the poems and all that are her unfiltered views of her marriage and her relationship with the AP. Don't let her white wash with these non sense of that it wasn't what it meant. It is like you caught in the fact of fucking the AP and she said it is not what you think..

Good luck.

You are playing a very dangerous game and the results can be disastrous for you.

You wife is clearly unstable. The fact this is getting physical usually does not work out we!! For the man. Also is using a recording device legal where you live?

You need to see an attorney and start protecting yourself.

Your WW has been manipulating and controlling the narrative for so long, lying successfully to your face for so long, that now she is losing that control she could do desperate dumb things to get that control back, this involves lying and manipulating a wider scope of people, the law is what I'm thinking about here.

I know how easy it is to lash out when trying to 180 or NC, it can be hard because they just don't get it and that both hurts and pisses you off, unfortunately when you do lash out a wayward can twist this, we've seen it before, "look how abusive the BS is" etc.

What helped me was not trying to NC (it was impossible for me because my WH was always in my face, lying and gaslighting), not 180 but "the grey rock method". This method teaches you to detach in a healthy way and to minimize confrontations and conflict. I recommend this method to anyone, not just in a infidelity situation, who are dealing with a difficult controlling personality like drama bombs, selfish &/or narcissist personality, manipulative (gaslighting) &/or controlling personality or liars.

I honestly think you will get more success from implementing the grey rock method over trying to NC or confront this unremorseful manipulative WW of yours.

I'm unsure if this is allowed but I'm going to cut and paste the cliff notes from a counseling website on how to grey rock....

How Do I Use the Grey Rock Method?

Disengage

The first rule is to disengage yourself. You gain the upper hand by recognizing that when someone says hurtful or inflammatory things about you—it’s to control you and get a reaction. When using the grey rock method, rather than become defensive, you would simply become nonreactive. Keep your face neutral, your tone bland, and your responses vague. By avoiding eye contact and giving noncommittal responses like "meh" or "mm-hmm," you become an incredibly boring target. No matter what you actually feel, stay focused on preserving your peace and disengaging from damaging interactions.

Stay distracted

Another helpful technique when using the grey rock method is to remain distracted. You can try carrying a book, using your phone, or simply keeping your mind focused on your favorite person or pet. This not only helps create some emotional distance, but can also make it easier to weather the storm if the person escalates their attempts to engage you by saying cruel or hurtful things. It can be difficult not to defend yourself when you feel attacked, but ultimately, you’ll minimize the damage by not engaging. Emotional detachment serves to undermine a narcissist’s attempts to lure and manipulate, causing them to grow uninterested and bored.

Keep it brief

Whenever you can, keep your interactions brief and limited. This means that you shouldn’t share too much about your life, and your responses should be short. You are protecting yourself by avoiding unhealthy behaviors. Use one-word answers and focus on boring mundane topics. Avoid revealing anything good or bad about your life. You should also avoid asking the other person about their life. In general, keep your opinions on matters to a minimum, use brief and nonverbal responses, be aloof and unengaged.

Don’t tell them what you’re doing

Never reveal to the person that you are using the grey rock method. The goal of grey rocking is to become an undesired target to the other person. If they know that you’re attempting to make yourself seem boring on purpose, they can use this information to further manipulate and control you.

A narcissist needs to surround themselves with individuals who fascinate them and who keep them entertained at all times. A narcissist needs to have complete control over others and will use manipulative tendencies to get what they want. They require those in their lives to shower them with attention, reverence, and admiration. The grey rock method is a technique that removes the fascination and entertainment from a narcissist’s life.

Risks of the grey rock method

When done well, grey rocking will create distance between you and the other person. This may be a painful experience. Furthermore, grey rocking requires you to suppress your needs for love, validation, and attention. Make sure you continue to have healthy outlets in your other relationships to fulfill these needs for you. You can always talk to a counselor about dealing with difficult relationships when grey rocking is not an ideal solution.

Final Thoughts

Dealing with relationships characterized by manipulation, gaslighting, and drama can leave you feeling emotionally drained. Using the grey rock method deprives emotionally abusive people of the drama they crave and alleviates you from unhealthy engagements. Cutting off toxic relationships is always ideal but using the grey rock method can preserve you from emotional harm when interactions are necessary.

(tried to link but wasn't able too sorry but just google 'what is the grey rock method' if you want more info, it's a great method)

edit:
Also be as unresponsive about the VR discovery as possible. Tackle questions of "how long" with answers like "long enough" and questions like "what did you hear" with "it's unfortunate you have a poor memory" and leave it at that, don't bait with what you know nor bluff over what you don't. I'm all for bluffing but your WW is too much of a wild card to predict what a bluff would evoke so keep it monotone and uninformative.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 4:16 AM, Monday, September 13th]

So reddy, what are you doing to get yourself out of this mess.

It still sounds to me that you are Playing The Victim. Until you file and move on, you haven't really done anything. Participating in your WW's fights isn't accomplishing a damn thing.

Dear Reddy,

First of all, let me state for the record, a male librarian is really my idea of the perfect mate.

However, I came here to say that you were not plan B, you were plan A, meaning, the person who had to handle each and every detail of life, the person who had to pull his weight and more, the person who would be responsible, loyal, and fulfill the letter and the spirit of being a husband. Plan B was finding some jackass to fool around with, so she didn't have to put all her eggs in one basket.

With my husband, I was helping him run his business and also running our lives. So, I was doing all the paperwork, working behind the counter, making bank deposits, monitoring all his credit cards, paying all the bills for the business and our personal bills, doing all the housework such as laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, cleaning, etc.; renewing vehicle registration, leases, doctor's appointments, prescriptions...you get the picture.

I may not have measured up to the other woman because I was always exhausted; I may not have been as "soignee" as she was, not dressed up, made up, or had my hair done; I may not have been awake when he finally came home because I was too worn out...

If I had had another woman to do all these things for my man, and all I had to do was receive him in my home, if all I had to do was cook a nice dinner if he were coming over, if I only had to take him in his leisure hours while someone else did the heavy lifting...I would expect to be the shinier choice. I would expect that I would far outshine the loyal and dedicated person who did all those things, and if I were that shallow, it probably wouldn't occur to me that this was the definition of love and loyalty. If I were that shallow, I would think I was much better than the spouse, and I would think I merited far more than she did.

It may be that my own husband could make a list of why that trashy husband poacher is better than I am. It might include things mentioned above. If my spouse made such a list, I would be congratulating myself that I was getting out of a relationship in which some horse's ass would swap my loyalty and all that I have done for him, for a homely, and what will turn out to be a very expensive, piece of ass.

reddy -
you’ve updated with some things that are very encouraging and very concerning.

I need out, like yesterday.

Then BE OUT. Tough love coming … Are you starting to understand the only person keeping you in this situation is yourself?

She says she is trying to make "us" work, but how can you make something work on a foundation of lies? Or am I crazy, could she be telling me the truth? I fucking hate this self-doubt.

Yours is a classic example of no matter the amount of evidence, some BS choose to live on hopium. You have your wife in writing and on tape bragging about cheating on you & detailing how she’ll manipulate you & yet you —

Look, your wife is mentally unwell. And if you choose to believe she could be telling you the truth, after all the evidence to the contrary, then you’re a match made in heaven.

I just have no genuine feelings for her left.

This isn’t true. You wouldn’t be existing on hopium if this were true.

I just don't want to do life anymore.

Please stop MC & engage in some intensive individual counseling. If not for yourself, for your kids to have at least one halfway sane parent.

reddy, when was the last time you were genuinely happy in this marriage? Do you think this marriage is healthy for your children?

These are the facts: your wife is a cheater, your wife likes being a cheater, your wife enjoys manipulating you, your wife enjoys humiliating you, your wife likes being married to you because you do whatever she wants, your wife wants to maintain the benefits of staying married to you while having sex with other men. You have 3 options: 1. continue down this path of misery 2. Divorce 3. Accept that your wife is who she is & let her cheat in peace.

I’m truly sorry, I really am. I hope I am not minimizing the pain you’re experiencing.

Reddy, when was the last time you were genuinely happy in this marriage? Do you think this marriage is healthy for your children?

These are the facts: your wife is a cheater, your wife likes being a cheater, your wife enjoys manipulating you, your wife enjoys humiliating you, your wife likes being married to you because you do whatever she wants, your wife wants to maintain the benefits of staying married to you while having sex with other men. You have 3 options: 1. continue down this path of misery 2. Divorce 3. Accept that your wife is who she is & let her cheat in peace.

Hey Reddy, I'm sorry you are struggling. As Alethiea suggested, stop MC and continue intensive IC so your kids can lean on you as the sane parent. Maybe looking at the big picture and not perseverating around the betrayal will help to motivate? To strengthen your resolve -- why don't you make your OWN list of her pros and cons? I bet you'll come up with a lengthy list of glaring character flaws that you've dealt with the entire marriage. I read through your posts and came up with a list of damning behaviors/dynamics - in your own words. Hope this helps. Not my intention to bring you down. Yeah, I get it - a marriage can drift into a rut where someone ends up with all the power because it's easier to placate and play along rather than fight for equal time. I was guilty of this myself. Pre DDay I swallowed a lot of s*** sandwiches to keep the peace with my H.

Reddy, even if the betrayal/lying/post DDay lying and grifting are left out of the equation it sounds like your marriage functions with an uneven balance of power skewed in her favor? A marriage is supposed to be an EQUAL partnership based on MUTUAL love, trust and respect. Apparently she straight up disrespects you, takes you for granted, uses you as her scapegoat, and BULLIES you. And it's all about HER. Not you. Not even YOUR KIDS. What kind of mother weaponizes her children against their Dad and is "jealous" = blames the children for deficits in the marriage? "She's jealous of them and the attention I give them" WTF! Think about these statements:

She gets me to back down........... I tend to be one who doesn't stand up for himself much).

She is continually invalidating my feelings, trying to make me feel like I am crazy, not to mention paranoid

She argued with me while I made supper and will not let it go. Alternating between crocodile tears and "I love you" and plain old bullying.

I have always been pretty non-confrontational, doormat frankly.......

.....she is a snake.

.....this matches a longstanding pattern in our relationship where she tells virtually anyone who will listen all about our problems. The second I misstep she is on her phone texting everybody about what I did/didn't do. Mutual friends, coworkers, even the fucking neighbours.

...she tends to be a steamroller

The talk with her friends and coworkers has always gotten to me

I went for all ten sessions, she came for about four and quit. She quit because she approached it as though the problem was me, and that we were there to fix me and not us. When the therapist pushed back on her, she quit

...... she just wanted their attention.

My STBXW seems almost proud of her actions....... She seems totally unconcerned by her reputation

......she thought she would feel guilty, but doesn't - at all.

She texted me during this time called me fucking moron and said I took the kids so you could see what it’s like to be without your family.

I have always made things so easy for her.

I am the primary parent - was even stay at home parent for three years - and I cook, clean, let her sleep in, etc. She is quite literally on easy street as I ask very little of her.

I "do whatever she wants"

.....to her and her friends this means I'm gay, or something less-than.

On top of this, she has me second guessing my interactions with the kids. She is jealous of them and the attention they get from me. In particular my daughter.

......she is the steamrolling, badgering type.

These statements don't describe a healthy marriage (with a mentally stable partner) built on a foundation of mutual respect. I bet you've been unhappy for a while, but being the stand up guy you are, you were faithful to your commitments, and put your children's needs front and center above your own. You deserve better. Heck, being a single parent would be easier for you, and better for you and your kids than continuing to dine of the s*** sandwiches served up by your STBXW. I'm rooting for you to get out of infidelity and rebuild a better life for you and your kids!

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 1:11 AM, Tuesday, September 14th]

Thank you for your responses. They are adding clarity to my thoughts and helping to break through the confusion and self-doubt.

The manipulations continue apace.

So, she texted two of the coworkers who are in cahoots with her a long text message about how she was just lying to them and that her and AP never actually had sex, and when they were together they just sat and talked about life, family, etc. No big deal right? She just wanted the attention, and the fact that they had boyfriends made her feel left out. Sounds good right?

Of course, they texted back with no questions of their own, just messages like no problem, apology accepted, no judgements, etc. "Marriage is hard" says one of them, LOL. You're telling me!

I had the feeling, however, that since she knows I read her texts, that these messages were just part of the game and that she scripted them carefully for my benefit and coached her friends on what to say in response.

Was I right, or was I right? LOL.

VAR is money well spent, much better than showering her with gifts. I have a feeling the lawyer will be money well spent, too.

Just a fucking game to her. Her laughing about it just adds insult to injury. Despite feeling a little triumphant right now, I can't but be even more disgusted by this.

Wow! I wouldn't feel safe around her. Since she knows you can read her messages then she knows that you also read the messages with AP, correct? She knows that you've already seen what they talked about. How they plan to move forward when everything's been settled down. I'm thinking she will lie low the next few weeks.

My stars she is a Piece Of Work. Piling lie upon lie just to keep gobbling cake. And she underestimates you - which isn't surprising since she doesn't seem to respect you. Glad to hear your resolve to D isn't wavering!
Reddy, you are a single parent already. Think about it. You are the primary parent, you take care of the house, etc. etc.
Yes, her paycheck will be missed. But I bet when you are 100% in charge of YOUR family budget there will be more $$ available than you expected. She is obviously a selfish person so wouldn't be unusual if her $$ priorities are also working in her favor. Hope your lawyer is sharp!
Hang in there and take care of yourself. Continue to play your cards close to your chest and be careful. Many posters have warned you about the likelihood the s*** will hit the fan when the D paperwork drops. Practice up on grey rock and carry a VAR with you at all times.

Hey there.

Sorry you're going through this.

Just wanted to say that I 100% think that your stbxw and her friends are definitely gaslighting you with those texts.

I caught my ex conspiring with her friends using a VAR. (1 of many times I "caught" her).

Take it from someone who's been in your shoes- it only gets worse until you begin the divorce process.

Then things begin, very slowly, to get better.

Hoping things get better for you soon.

And you'll probably find a text on her laptop that she's been lying to herself.

Watching this story as a movie would have been fun, but experiencing it personally is not. You need to get rid of such a personality as soon as possible.

That list had nothing to do with you as a plan A or a plan B. It is a list of her values. The fact that there is even a list is all that matters.

The same thing goes for her recent text. Instead of focusing on the words, the real question is who does shady sh@t like that?.

This behaviour is way beyond lying. What she says or does means nothing. Who she is, is what you should pay attention to.

Your wife should not be plan A or Plan B. She should be plan zero.

[This message edited by 66charger at 1:03 AM, Wednesday, September 15th]

Reddy,

How did your STBXW find the VAR? Just a word of advice, if she is on to you and your surveillance, make sure she doesn't find this site, or your login info. There have been WW that have found this site and been able to figure out their spouses. So if she is on to you, you should be very careful with your post and electronics.

Other than that, you are absolutely correct. She somehow figured out how you snooped on her text, so she thinks that she can outsmart you just like she has in the past. You can use that info to play her game back at her, but even better.

Drop hints of what you're going to do, or maybe just enough of what you've seen, but know you shouldnt have, just to throw her off your trail. In the meantime, get your ducks in a row with your attorney, your finances and keep monitoring her. Play the long game, and you'll get out from under her in no time. She will be thinking WTF just happened and realized that you outsmarted her.

Keep moving forward, you are on the right path out of infidelity.

[This message edited by HalfTime2017 at 1:43 PM, September 14th (Tuesday)]

Hey Reddy

Remember the good old days when you married your WW and said the vows to Love Honor Cherish Respect your spouse, "except when you feel like flirting with another man, telling all your friends you fucked him, writing love poems to him, and making lists of the benefits of both men and using it to demasculate my husband because of his career"? Ah good times, that was a beautiful day….

Wait, you don’t remember those vows? Yeah because you didn’t agree to that of course. But that’s exactly what she did. And even if she didn’t have sex or intimacy with him if any kind, what I wrote above is enough to destroy a marriage. And that is just what she did.

I hope you laugh in her face when she tries to tell you they didn’t have sex even though she explicitly described it to her friends. It just doesn’t matter.

If she were truly all in, should would never be talking to those friends ever again. If she were truly all in she would absolutely be telling you truthfully what she did.

She’s not ALL IN. Not one bit. She in ass covering mode to make you the bad guy here.

It doesn’t matter. I’m pro-R when there is a WW who is obviously remorseful. She is not. Not one bit.

Keep on your path away from her and you will find your way out of her infidelity.