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Username, I'm going to quote something that I've already shared with you regarding this on the questions for WS thread, I don't know if it would make you feel better or if it will stick to hear it again, or even have more WSs chime in. Not gonna lie, its exhausting, but we are here to help and share experiences after all.

You asked,

I get that a remorseful WS looks back at the whole affair with disgust, but find it hard to fathom they would have so much sex, or invest sometimes years with another person, and have zero fond memories of some of the sexual things they did.

And here is how its possible,

I have a different opinion, it can lessen those feelings. Facts and feelings are very different. It could be a fact that it was the best sex ever or better than with your BS. But, feelings can change how you look back on the fact. Again, I thought that was the question here? Who in their right mind can look back after taking one's life and FEEL good about the cause? Logically it just doesn't make sense to me unless you are a psychopath.

You know, I didn't understand the pain of infidelity, I didn't know how it effects people, I had zero experience. I mean don't get me wrong I knew it would hurt, but I didn't know it was so traumatizing and I didn't understand the levels of abuse. So, it was easy to have a good time and feel the excitement it was easy to compartimentalize...until I found myself in a crash course and remorse can be a real kick in the ass.

I can sit here and state a fact, it was good sex, I can also sit here and state my feelings about how repulsed I am for ever having sex with that guy, it makes my skin crawl, I cannot for the life of me muster up those excited feelings I had during my affair for my affair having been the death of my spouse.

find it hard to fathom they would have so much sex, or invest sometimes years with another person, and have zero fond memories of some of the sexual things they did.

My affair was a year long so falls into that LTA category. I can say without a doubt that I have zero fond memories of the sexual encounters I had with my AP. I can also say that hands down my husband is the only one that has given me mind blowing orgasms. I am fortunate that he believes me too. I think the reason why he believes me is 2 fold. He is definitely confident in his own skills, but also because of the amount of communication we have had on this topic. Early on in our reconciliation we agreed to leave no stone unturned. The level of communication we have had has led to a deep understanding of each other.

Looking back on my actions during the affair doesn’t make me smile. The sex I had does not bring back fond memories. It only brings back shame and embarrassment. I felt so much disgust for myself that I offered my body in exchange for validation. It’s not something to be proud of or reminisce fondly over. It was the lowest point in my life.

The mind movies or fantasies I tend to replay are the ones that I wish I could change. For example, I replay the moment HT found out. I think about what I wish I had said and what I wish I had done. I did everything wrong and made our reconciliation so much harder because of it. That’s what I replay because that is what I struggle with. I caused so much pain and destruction that there is not a single thing for me to be fond of in regards to my affair. Not. A. One.

I do find it interesting that despite so many people saying that they don’t think fondly about their APs, so many have such a hard time believing it. I can see it if the wayward has not done the work. The ones that have, have gained a new perspective on their feelings and actions that allow themselves to see the affair through a clearer lens. Once you shine light on it, it is hard to hide the truth. When it comes to affairs, the truth is pretty ugly and painful.

To make staying in a marriage more difficult - the WS does NOT remember the affair negatively. Some time later - some times not so soon and sometimes much later after DD, they do begin to have some negative emotions about their dalliance with their paramour.

What baffles me is why BS stay when the WS still has "fond memories" of what they did. Not to mean everything they did while in affair, just some or a few things. For example: "He/She treated me nice."

WalkingOnEggShelz,

You said "I do find it interesting that despite so many people saying that they don’t think fondly about their APs, so many have such a hard time believing it."

I think the reason we as BSs have a hard time believing this statement is because we have never personally experienced a change in perspective about past sexual encounters and it sounds convenient for the WS maybe a little too convenient. Also, being in pain makes it difficult to internalize anything. Finally, our trust in our WS is zero so believing anything they say is difficult especially if it is something they are saying to get themselves out of trouble.

I just want to add here that for me as a man that I do believe that a lot of ww do not look back favorably in hindsight AFTER they've been caught and realized the pain they have caused.

My problem is that at the time they VERY much enjoyed the sexual aspect of the affair.

I look at like this (im sure some of you won't agree with this)

Let's say you have been on a diet for 6 months, doing great, losing weight,etc. You then have a weak moment and go to your favorite steak place and eat a huge steak. The next day you weigh in at weight watchers and have to explain to the class what happened. Maybe you feel shame,remorse, etc.

Does that make the steak bad?

So I think a big disconnect as Ive had a sit and think on this topic between WS and BS is honestly I cant think of a single thing I regret that taints what I regret doing in the first place? I dont have such life shattering actions that cause me to look back on it and it ruins all that happened. I wouldnt be surprised if the affair is one of the only things a WS has that causes such tremendous shame and pain that the regret from it shapes how they viewed the actual action.

I feel like this could be applied across the board, I think most BS dont have something they so intensely regret that it mucks up their memories. I mean what do I regret? Not saving more of me money when I got into the trade at 18, but that doesnt change how i view those years as fun and adventure filled. It doesnt make me look back on vacations I took and ruin it for me. I truly cannot comprehend that level of regret, and in turn I fully cannot understand how remorse could so utterly obliterate any positive feelings like that. Im not saying I dont believe it, I just havent experienced it.

find it hard to fathom they would have so much sex, or invest sometimes years with another person, and have zero fond memories of some of the sexual things they did.

This quote was originally mine. There was recently a thread about those whose marriages were better after infidelity. I went into it believing that it was impossible. Yet there were enough stories from posters that I respect that got me to change my thinking that it was possible.

I think this falls into the same category. I can’t imagine a WS after choosing to have sex with someone repeatedly doesn’t look back at the sex part of it with some fondness, even if they view the affair with disgust. Yet, I have enough trust in the posters here who have responded to modify my thinking.

I think the issue becomes for most BS however it becomes like an episode of “To tell the truth”. Almost everyone who wants to reconcile says they don’t look fondly at the sex, but how does a BS distinguish those who are telling the truth, and those who are lying to save their marriage.

I always thought my EX must have had some sort of fond remembrance. The first time he took off his shirt and instead of a middle aged man she had been with fir 25 years, was a young fit guy with big muscles. Who knows. She also had sex that was far different than what we had. He did things specifically to humiliate her to get back at me. Exciting at first I’m sure, but maybe you guys are right that in the end that now become revolting. The thing is you never know

As for the mind movies, she like WOES had actual nightmares of when the PI came into the room and found them together. I do believe that was as a traumatic experience that would never go away.

One of the things I read over and over in my WS’s correspondence with her married AP in the last 6 months of their affair was “I wanted friendship, you wanted sex”, as he dumped her. So what does that really mean. Did she really give sex in every possible way (including many denied me) just to have his attention and presence in her life? Did she have such low self esteem that she used her body to negotiate time with him. She now says she hates him, but trying to re-connect after 25 years says other wise and feeds the mind movies even more.

Yet, I have enough trust in the posters here who have responded to modify my thinking.

Thanks for that. I've experienced a similar evolution.

It's clear that what works for some doesn't work for all. There are multiple honorable ways to handle betrayal. Sometimes a person has difficulty finding the best path for them. When SIers are at their best, though, we help each other find the best path, however long it takes.

*****

There are ways to determine truth from falsehood that are close to 100% effective. We can all learn them. We can all use them.

Often there are reasons to believe someone is lying, even when one can't define exactly what the reasons may be. That little gut feeling is usually reliable.

A person gets an emotional payoff by refusing to believe, after several years, the WS who says the sex wasn't great. What is it?

The answer is specific to each individual, but I think in all cases, refusing to believe an answer beneficial to the questioners almost forces the questioners to feel awful about themselves.

For some, the refusal pretty clearly comes from uncertainty about their own ability to discern truth/falsehood.

For some, the refusal pretty clearly comes from a fear or other unwillingness to address their own issues.

It's normal and healthy to assume lack of truth for the first 1-2 years of questioning, whenever that starts.

If it takes longer than that to figure out if the WS has become honest, though, I believe the problem is in the BS, and the BS needs to get help.

Maybe the help needed is in learning to detect the difference between truth and falsehood - that is, maybe the BS needs to improve questioning techniques.

Maybe the help needed is figuring out if one's perceptions are reliable - that is, maybe the BS needs an objective observer to help evaluate the answers the BS has gotten.

But maybe the BS needs help knowing and loving themself.

If you refuse to believe your WS, I urge you to ask yourself some questions like these:

Is there something in the way your WS answers questions that makes you doubt your WS's veracity?

What happens to you - externally and internally/emotionally/psychologically - if your WS actually is telling the truth?

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:28 PM, March 1st (Monday)]

If it takes longer than that to figure out if the WS has become honest, though, I believe the problem is in the BS, and the BS needs to get help.

Sissoon, I really respect you, but the way this is worded could be seen as BS blaming.

Perhaps if you had personally experienced being lied to for years upon years upon years, followed by a WS who failed miserably at even the "traditional" steps of rebuilding honesty (eg not breaking NC, timeline, polygraph if asked, not changing passwords w/o telling BS, etc), you may see this differently (along with the 1-2 years part).

Now, bc my WH has not done his work to repair/rebuild trust, I suppose I can say that I've "figured out" that he is NOT honest. But TBH (pun intended), I really have no clue. There are plenty of BS who have "done the work" and still don't trust their WS, or worse, are still hoodwinked by another dday after they DID "figure out" that their WS had "become honest".

Lizard brain works HARD to protect us.... and there seem to be a fair amount of "generalizations" in that post

[This message edited by gmc94 at 6:11 PM, March 1st, 2021 (Monday)]

The mind movies, for me, are probably the worst part of being betrayed. I knew my wife’s AP very well. I had been in his home, where they had sex. I had been in his car, where they had sex. I don’t have to imagine the scene, I’ve seen it.

The mind movies hit me when I have sex with my wife. Whether I should have or not, I demanded a full confession of the details of their encounters. I see in my head during sex with her what she confessed they did.

She swears the sex with him was largely unsatisfactory owing to her own guilt, his selfishness, the fact he finished very quickly every time, and the lack of real intimacy. It is small consolation to me that she clearly does enjoy sex with me.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 8:05 AM, March 2nd (Tuesday)]

Sorry for the T/J here and above - Thanks for pointing that out, gmc. I didn't see 'blame the victim' when I posted, but I can see it now.

This isn't about blame. It's about where to put energy to solve a problem. The most direct way to solve a BS's discomfort is for the BS to work on themself. The most direct way to solve a WS's discomfort is for the WS to work on themself.

When a person is recovering, I think that person senses internal movement.

If a person gets stuck - no movement - and stays stuck after doing what the person can think of to get unstuck, I think the person's best option is to get help - not because the person is necessarily doing something wrong, but because the right help will get the person unstuck.

Inappropriate

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:03 PM, March 2nd (Tuesday)]

Well, that settles that, we have an all knowing person who can speak for us all! Our forum is now no longer needed, enlightenment has arrived!

"He seems happy. But our relationship although wonderful (seriously!) is changed forever."

What did you expect? After my wife's A I didn't touch her for awhile, felt grossed out by the OM, you'd know what I mean if you saw him,

After my A years later Wifey wanted sex constantly.

Each person is different in how they approach real sex/intimacy after an affair.

(NSFW Alert) my wife has always loved they way I give her oral and for many months I avoided it after her A. Didn't want my mouth anywhere the OM had been with his $^#%*). But After my A my wife wanted to know what OW did that was special so she could do it with me. It made me feel like POS for making her feel like she needed to be better. My wife is AMAZING in the bedroom.

Jeez BloddyEddie, thats fine if you can't imagine a WS actually telling the truth. Understandable considering.

But leave our "idiot spouses" out of it. Thats not very fair to judge a BS so cruelly. Way to slap every BS in R across the face 🙄

I think for me one of the things that would help the BS with ending the mind movies would be the willingness of the WS to explain in detail what it was in the relationship that shifted their thinking, commitment and desires to someone other than their spouse. Not blaming them, but honestly explaining that moment in time when they said “I quit you to the BS and I chose you to the AP, and this is why I shifting my reality.” That moment would be a precious gift for me after 30 years of twice being tossed to the side to engage with her married AP who was as using her for his gain regardless of what it did to her or her family.

WTL wrote,

I always thought my EX must have had some sort of fond remembrance. The first time he took off his shirt and instead of a middle aged man she had been with fir 25 years, was a young fit guy with big muscles. Who knows. She also had sex that was far different than what we had. He did things specifically to humiliate her to get back at me. Exciting at first I’m sure, but maybe you guys are right that in the end that now become revolting. The thing is you never know

I suspect that's how it worked with OM1-b, but he was a throwaway person like a paper towel so she could do things with him and not feel like she was soiling her reputation or had to live with him for any length of time.

She also didn't have to do them with me for years or decades which might have been the case if she had ever done them with me.

However I also think that what really turns women on is often something they don't want to admit to, my W used to orgasm more intensely if I spanked or fingered the butt. Yet in normal conversation she would not say she likes those things.

I agree Survrus. When she first told me about being with him she made a point of describing how different he was from me...from his physique, to his intelligence, to his prowess, his income and his career...but oh, nothing is going on, he’s just a friend who I just met, and we might have had too many drinks together, danced a lot of slow dances, and um, we kissed. But nothing else happened. LOL, I was so stupidly trusting then.

I think for me one of the things that would help the BS with ending the mind movies would be the willingness of the WS to explain in detail what it was in the relationship that shifted their thinking, commitment and desires to someone other than their spouse. Not blaming them, but honestly explaining that moment in time when they said “I quit you to the BS and I chose you to the AP, and this is why I shifting my reality.”

Obviously, every situation is different. For me, and I suspect for many WS, I was looking to fill some empty place in myself. Why wasn’t the BS enough? Because it wasn’t about the BS. It was about MY issues, my insecurities, my failures to communicate, my weaknesses. When I was able to rectify the problems within myself, and figure out why I behaved as I did, I saw the person who was there in front of me for who he was. I choose my BS every day because of his honesty and his heart and he has seen the worst in me...and still stand by me. WTF is that about. Seriously in awe of that sort of understanding and forgiveness. Not sure I have that in myself. We never really know until we are faced with the thing.