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I don't have access to the search function or past threads. There is a thread in wayward which discusses these subtle behaviors. I will try to find it.

Asking me to do something is fine. Not understanding that I am home alone with three children and completely managing every single aspect of life Monday-Friday....moved 9 times. No help from nannies, day cares, parents....never a break or a vacation. And forgetting something doesn't mean acting like I am an imbecile. I am highly intelligent. More so than my WH. I am an extremely hard worker. I managed his whole life down to scheduling his dentist appointments and doctor appointments. Going with him to these appointments. Seriously!' Keeping our home clean. Children have great grades, involved, well mannered.

Little issues like about forgetting something with zero help isn't deserving of the attitude he gave me.

I have a lot of history with controlling men, from a dangerous psychopath to a pouty-lipped man child.

The difference between control and concern? The tone of your voice, the intent, the mood in the air.

When men have wanted to control me--whether in big or small ways--I could feel that they wanted to reduce me or limit me or keep me down or put me in my place. I could sometimes feel that they didn't even believe what they were saying, but in that moment they needed me to just be wrong. They seemed to enjoy my disappointment too much. Controlling people must bring others down to feel better about their own dark and inferior feelings.

True concern from someone? It does not feel limiting or unreasonable. My ex would handle my disagreeing fairly well. If the want/need for change went into a longer discussion, he didn't seem to be coming from an angry place. His tone of voice frequently sounded frustrated, but it never sounded dismissive.

I struggle with this also. At least defining what controlling vs abusive is.

It starts slowly, it's subtle. Well maybe not as subtle as I thought now that I have 20/20 hindsight.

For many years I was an artist as a profession. He would come home from work (when he was not unemployed after being fired ) and look at what I had produced that day. Apparently there was a quota but I didn't know what it was and it could change daily or hourly or in the moment.

If I chose to on my day off, to paint for fun, to learn something new, he would criticize me for starting over, trying again. I was supposed to get it perfect the first shot, I was not allowed a learning curve. If I tried to explain that I knew I could do better, that I saw as I was painting that another way would produce what was in my head, it became a character flaw, I was too concerned about others perceptions and I just needed to produce!

Also I was not allowed to paint from a photo or from a view of the land. He insisted that everything had to come from my imagination. This is someone that never drew a picture or picked up a brush. He knew all.

So many examples of controlling. It is mind boggling for me now.

My view of controlling starts and stops with what I allow or agree to. It is a dynamic that takes two participants if it is way out of balance.

My view of controlling starts and stops with what I allow or agree to. It is a dynamic that takes two participants if it is way out of balance.

It is absolutely out of balance. Not so black and white though.

I know for me, I did not see or understand the control. I am not controlling so it never entered my mind that he would want to control. It just never entered my mind. I viewed his actions through my lens of the world.

Obviously I was doing something that upset him! How could I fix that or explain or make it right.

If you care about someone, controlling them is not an option. Control is abuse. It is a form of trying to be in the one up position.

For someone that does not desire or even know that this exists, it is not a choice. I did not choose to participate. I just did not understand what was truly happening.

I believed that he was coming from a similar place as me, concern for us, for our life, our future. It gets twisted.

The difference between control and concern? The tone of your voice, the intent, the mood in the air.

This is pretty illuminating to me. I have a hunch this is/was my problem. My tone was awful. I was mean. There is no denying that.

But I wasn't trying to control her.... but that doesn't mean that I wasn't controlling her, if that makes any sense.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 9:00 PM, August 15th (Tuesday)]

Barcher, I saw the exact same question of how much of being out late is too much in a months when you're married with kids and typically 2-3 times a month is too much when there are consecutive days involved. Basically staying out over night is highly frowned upon when it involves drinking and partying. There is nothing controlling about disliking that and wanting your spouse to check in with you. There is nothing controlling about coming up with a reasonable amount of times per month and requesting it not involve overnights. That's called compromising and what's actually controlling behavior is when there is no compromise like demanding that your spouse never do x, y, and z and taking extreme measures to help ensure that.

How much was she going out before the 2-3 nights per month compromise?

Cantaccept,

I should have explained further. I was emotionally and physically abused and even controlled through my H's lies, infedelity, manipulation etc. for 2 years. I did not see it. I was not a willing participant. I was loving, trusting and lost. I understand what you are saying.

Now that I do see it, I won't participate. I have a new filter. I was completely shocked that I was in the situation before. I did not think that would ever happen to me. I have shut down my side of the dynamic. No more. I am in C and have learned to see it. I will call my H out on it and will not stand for it.

My favorite was right afterward Dday when my H would call me controlling. Really? You controlled the false narrative of our life for 2 years. Then he called me manipulative. Are you serious? I was so confused because this wasn't me at all. I was completely unprepared before. I didn't think those ways. I get you. I didn't realize what I had to even watch for.

My H and I have both come a long way with IC, MC, and _God. My H didn't even realize it at the time. He was so disgusted with himself and is very remorseful.

[This message edited by Jesusismyanchor at 11:51 PM, August 15th (Tuesday)]

Controlling also involves getting your way or else. Or else you sulk, get angry, pout, or hide in your cell phone. It involves punishing your spouse if they don't please you or obey you by hurting them with words or actions - even with retribution. Controlling means your way or the highway.

My H used to do all of those things. He's getting better but still has his moments. Controlling behavior often stems from insecurity.

Now that I do see it, I won't participate. I have a new filter. I was completely shocked that I was in the situation before

Now I understand.

I agree. Once you see what is happening, really believe it, you can choose to not accept it.

It is not easy and there is no guarantee that the other will also change in a positive way. In my situation, I stopped tolerating it, being passive, I called it out when it happened. He changed too, he became worse.

I think your initial post just struck a nerve.

sorry for the t/j

agree. Once you see what is happening, really believe it, you can choose to not accept it.

This is so true. I spent years thinking WH was on the spectrum.

He isn't. He was a selfish horrible husband. And I glossed over it. I was wrong.

I truly cannot believe how far he has come this year. To think he had the ability to actually be a real human being. His issues were FOO. Let me give you an example. His parents came to visit. MIL came with kids and I to dinner. She of course had to leave and get back to FIL. He didn't join us. He wasn't hungry. FIL locked MIL out of the house. Wouldn't answer the door. Kids and I left dinner to let her in the house.

It was an "accident". No it wasn't. I specifically looked at him and said I am leaving this door unlocked. So husband grew up seeing this crap.

I put all of my kids in counseling this year. My eldest has been working on NOT using anger to manipulate people.

How much was she going out before the 2-3 nights per month compromise?

I think that I have given you all the wrong idea about my wife. She is hardly a party animal. She rarely drinks... it is exceptionally rare if she drinks that she becomes tipsy or drunk. This is by her choice, not mine (I have ZERO complaints about her alcohol consumption). Her affair had absolutely nothing to do with her social activities. She sought out an ex BF for her affair; none of her friends knew about her affair. Even now, only one friend knows of her affair.

I think (and I am confident that she agrees) that she felt trapped at home when we starting having kids. Somewhat like a caged animal that is cornered, she did not react well to that situation.

For whatever reason, she blamed me for her situation. She was really mean to me (not good for my depression, in hindsight) and she also decided to go out with her friends whenever there was an opportunity. That was her priority. There wasn't a lot of opportunities (again, maybe 2 or 3 times a month, maximum) and she loves her children... but she went out whenever she could. Sometimes, this would be on consecutive nights, which I asked her to stop because it was very hard on me. I am willing to lose sleep for a night for her to go out, but two consecutive nights was too much for me.

That was the beginning.

Since then, you need to imagine that I was almost two people. There is the rational, kind, thoughtful person that you see here. That person is real and that's how I am in real life. Now, you need to imagine a crazy, short-tempered version of that. I would be very quick to get angry; once angry, I would often be cruel.

This past fall, we started call the latter person "The Monster" at MC. My wife was really clear what she wanted in order to continue the marriage: she wanted the Monster to be gone. Remember, no one understood that I was suffering from depression at this point.

I told her that I would try to kill the Monster, but I did not think that I could. I was right, more or less. There was no chance that I could control the Monster without medical help. The Monster was my depression. We literally had a name for it, even though we did not know what it was, medically speaking.

After getting help for my depression, the Monster was dead. We continued MC for a couple of months after. For whatever reason, our MC decided that I was the problem with our marriage and the cause of my wife's affair. I understand, now, that the MC was a quack.

But, I still think that it's worthwhile to consider my behavior as controlling. In many ways, it was controlling. The Monster controlled her. The Monster controlled me too, but that's irrelevant, right?

(well, not really. I spent a lot of time contemplating killing the Monster and I came close to doing it a couple of times).

I don't want to control my wife, whether it is this wife, my previous wife, or my next wife. I don't want to control my wife, intentionally or unintentionally.

Sorry... I am rambling now. Thank you all for the discussion.

(time to go take my anti-depressant).

[This message edited by barcher144 at 9:26 AM, August 16th (Wednesday)]

I have put a lot of thought into this particular issue, and I have come to this conclusion.

It isn't the diagnosis that is the issue, it's the behavior.

The behaviors are simply a symptom of the mental illness. Controlling behavior is a shitty coping skill, in some cases due to underlying mental illness.

That said, it doesn't mean that you have to put up with it.

There are times when I feel like nothing that I do is ever enough. I make three times what she does... and she acts like we have nothing, sometimes, because we literally can't buy everything that she wants whenever she wants.

Selfish.

She was really mean to me (not good for my depression, in hindsight) and she also decided to go out with her friends whenever there was an opportunity. That was her priority.

Selfish.

There wasn't a lot of opportunities (again, maybe 2 or 3 times a month, maximum) and she loves her children... but she went out whenever she could. Sometimes, this would be on consecutive nights, which I asked her to stop because it was very hard on me. I am willing to lose sleep for a night for her to go out, but two consecutive nights was too much for me.

Selfish. Sounds to me like your recognize the unhealthiness of staying up with anxiety. Also sounds to me like you weren’t asking her to stop going out, you were simply asking her to not do it two nights in a row. I would hope that you were getting help and trying to get to the bottom of your anxiety…your compromise is that you are getting that help to get it under control and you still let her go out when she can, as long as she doesn’t do it two nights in a row. What is her compromise? Nothing. She did what she wanted to do regardless of how it affected you. That’s selfish.

M is a compromise. You let her go out while working on your issues. She goes out non-consecutively to help calm your anxiety and let you get sleep until you can figure it out. See what I mean?

ETA: Calling you controlling is a manipulative way to get what she wants without catching much grief from you. It's turning the problem around on you. You feel bad and stop mentioning it and she gets to do what she wants. Win, win for her. Lose, lose for you.

[This message edited by StrongHeart at 10:05 AM, August 16th (Wednesday)]

I wouldn't sleep until she got home (before D-day, I wasn't worried that she was cheating; I was worried that she'd get murdered).

Yes, but...

How does you staying awake/not sleeping PREVENT her hypothetical murder?

Strongheart said it well - your wife is not compromising at all with you, while you are offering to compromise. That is the difference. In this case, I would actually say, especially with her using the accusation of calling you controlling, that it is actually your wife that is the controlling one - she is controlling the schedule, controlling your sleep, or lack thereof, attempting to control the way you see yourself, and controlling even the mood of the M, all by selfishly refusing to compromise in any way. After all, to compromise with you, all she has to do is not go out two nights in a row; there are plenty of other nights in the month on which she can go out and still go out just as much as she is now, so why must it be one right after the other when she knows it causes you issues? I know you get, or will get, the argument that she doesn't schedule everything and this is when so and so set it, so this is when it is and if she doesn't go that night, then she misses out.....but, if they are truly her friends, can't she ask them to try to space things out more? Can't she see about doing some other thing on a different night of the month with some of them? If not and all she can do is make this scheduling excuse to you, that tells you what is more important to her - her friends and nights out, instead of you; that simply isn't right in a M. She should be first and foremost concerned with your feelings and concerns and requests, with the children's next, and then hers; when she puts herself first, it knocks everything out of whack, and is exactly the same attitude, still in place, that led to an A and landed you here..... (Think about that one....because that same attitude that led to the A and landed you here appears to be alive and well in her, to me, which means she still has work to do on herself if she wishes to avoid another A.....)

I have to tell you, this would not be acceptable to me any longer, after the experience I have had. And, if anyone tried to tell me I was controlling when I was the one offering the compromise, I would hope I would shut that down, quick, and tell them, if they do not wish to compromise in some manner, but to stand in their selfishness instead, then they can just walk on, as I am done with that mess....

I posted a very similar post to this barcher and I'm sure you commented on it.

In my experience, people usually throw the word "control" out when they want to do what they wish to do that they themselves would not be ok with the "controller" doing. By using that word, they in fact are the ones taking control so they can do what they want. Now I know we are all individuals and really no one can tell anyone what they can or can't do, but it refers back to the principles of a healthy marriage and being able to compromise.

When my W doesn't want to discuss or compromise, she will call me controlling so she can get her way. It is indeed narcissistic behavior by her, to turn the control back in her favor. I have figured myself as a level 2 co-dependent and her as a borderline narcissist. Her best friend does the same thing to her husband.

It's simple to me. If she is wanting to do something that she herself would not be ok with me doing, how can she think it ok for her to do herself? But that's how she thinks. I am very big into doing outdoors activities, she is always welcome to come with, but that is not what she likes to do. So occasionally I would go with a guy friend of mine and usually take some of my children. If I was gone too long, she would be furious with me. Or if we went too often, same thing. On the other hand she used to be ok going to bars with her friends until 2-4 AM, and I was supposed to be ok with this. Not ok.

I love her dearly and she is always welcome to come, whatever I am doing. In fact in encourage and sometimes even beg her to come with me. My love language is quality time. She says I control her by not letting her work, even though I encourage her regularly to get a job, to volunteer or go back to school, whatever makes her happy. But I am controlling?

I know there is indeed people that suffer from a controlling spouse, I'm just saying sometimes that word is used to actually take the control. Sorry this is a bit of a rant but this is our biggest issue in our marriage, a bit of gridlock for us. She called me this just last night actually. Ugh

There are often nuggets of truth in complaints; the trick is to communicate issues before they become full-blown resentments.

To recognize the difference between healthy communication and controlling behavior?

Look for controlling words:

*always

*should

Controlling: "You always spend too much money! I make three times what you do. Why do you act like we have nothing? We literally can't buy everything you want whenever you want."

Helpful: What's up with this $244 Visa charge for new bed linens? I thought we'd agreed that budgeting our family spending to pay for braces for Johnny and Mary was a top priority."

Controlling (and passive aggressive): "Thanks for that yummy dinner. You should use less onion and less garlic like you did last week...Next time you should let me cook dinner because I like to cook for the kids, too."

There's a lot of mixed messaging going on in the above. Compliments (like apologies) carry more weight when they are specific.

Helpful: Thanks for cooking most of the family's school night dinners. You know my job gets crazy and the beginning and end of each semester. How about I make it up to you with a date night on Saturday? And I'll cook a big batch of sloppy joes on Sunday."

I think the specific example here is related to fear of abandonment, a FOO issue.

If that's the case, I urge you to solve it via IC. Believe me, getting rid of that fear makes life amazingly better.

OTOH, when my W actually was abandoning me, I missed it.... I see some humor in that. Seriously, I'm a lot better off having put the fear of abandonment firmly in the past. If you've got that fear, your life will be better, too.

I think it's controlling to demand full access to someone's devices if there is no probable cause.

Except for a few months after d-day, I've been transparent. Snail mail is private by law, but IMO a couple living together should have few secrets.

How does you staying awake/not sleeping PREVENT her hypothetical murder?

The word "crazy" is not a word that people like to use anymore because it is negative.

But, there is no explanation other than "I'm crazy" for staying up. It is what it is. In this case, the term "crazy" can be labelled more specifically as anxiety.