SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The difficulty inherent in any of these threads is that, often with the best intention, we project our experience onto the person who comes here for support and advice.

In reality, we don't know this person, and we don't know the WS, and we don't know the marriage. We don't even have a complete picture of the facts on the ground- we have one side of it, and only as much as the BS is willing to tell us.

We refuse to accept it when the BS says things about the marriage or the WS that we could not accept in our own situations. We refuse to believe it. We refuse to accept any reality other than our own. We project ourselves onto the BS and we seek validation for our own choices and perspectives.

The fact is that a lot of people who experience infidelity stay married. Some stay in unhealthy, hostile marriages. Some stay bitter. Some merely exist. Some stay stuck in the past. Some move forward, grown and thrive. There are as many types of post-infidelity marriages as there are people, as there are couples, as there are infidelities.

The OP is striving for empathy in his attempt to forgive. He seems to want to forgive, whether reconciliation is possible or not. He recognizes that empathy is a huge factor in forgiveness. Empathy is NOT saying that it didn't matter, or that it was understandable, it is not excusing the transgression. It is saying that we are all human and that we all make bad choices and do bad things. Sometimes we're the windshield, sometimes we're the bug. Do you throw away an entire relationship, an entire person because of a bad choice, because of a bad episode? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

I personally have struggled with developing empathy, even though I have desperately desired it. I admire Bahama's efforts in this area. Some of you think that his attempt at empathy is misplaced and puts him in danger of being hurt again. You may be right- I don't know. Or you could be wrong. Personally, I think I am safer with my husband, a man who made a very poor choice one time and has had the experience of living with that poor choice, than I am with a total stranger who has never had to live with the consequences of hurting me. There is wisdom in the aftermath of poor choices as well.

Some of you are so devoid of empathy that I'm not surprised that your marriages have ended. I suspect your marriages would have ended anyway, by some means, had infidelity not visited you. Your windshield and your mirror are full of YOU. There isn't room for the existence or even for the reflection of another person in your life. No empathy to be found.

Bahama, you know yourself, you know your wife. Get some professional guidance. This forum is helpful, useful, but it's not professional guidance. You have some particular, unique features in your marriage. You need to speak with an IC and/or MC who understands those particulars and their impacts.

There are no absolutes here. There isn't a clearly defined "right choice" or "wrong choice." There is, ultimately, only what is right or wrong for you. You must take your time in figuring that out. What we on this forum think about it is irrelevant.

Take what is useful here, leave the rest. :)

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 10:01 AM, March 7th (Thursday)]

I appreciate the perspective from everyone. I'm grappling with so much right now. I know I'm still in crisis mode and not past the A. There are many discussions that still need to be had. There is much time that will need to pass. I don't know where it all will lead. I just have to trust my feelings and my gut and take it moment by moment.

I woke up feeling sad again. My W is off today so we spent some time together. We didn't get into any deep discussions that would have drawn out tears as we've got some responsibilities to take care of. I checked on her, she checked on me. She has told me how sorry she is twice already today. She's heartfelt sorry. I just thanked her. I'm trying to avoid falling into the trap of rug sweeping and trying to return to life as normal. Life is not normal right now. It's broken. I feel the urge to avoid conversations that will hurt me and my W, yet I know I need them and she needs them despite the pain it will bring.

marriageredux959 - Thank you in particular. I've kept that exact mindset as I read the replies on here. I try to filter what I disagree with or what seems to want to push me against my gut feelings. Yet I appreciate the wisdom from all on here. I feel drawn to reading all the replies and post on my thread, yet also have the feeling I should avoid it some as it puts thoughts into my head that I didn't have or want or agree with.

For the record, I don't think my wife has called the A a mistake. I think she realizes it was a conscious action on her part. She has simply told me that "she fucked up" which is true. That she "has destroyed her life" which is true. I haven't interpreted any of her statements as her reducing it to a mistake that just happened and she wasn't in control of.

One day at a time, one moment at a time.

One day at a time, one moment at a time.

That is exactly the right mindset right now.

I got pulled away before I complete one though you touched on.

Researching the psychology of As in general and looking at it in a detached way can be an excellent way to keep at the forefront of your mind while insulating yourself from the emotional flooding.

(Bahama))

We are here whenever you needs us. Take what you need and leave the rest.

Bahama,

I do see one long term issue for you in that your WW seems to enjoy male company, coaches, partners,trainer for her running hobby. I also suspect anything to do with physical training will be a trigger for you in the future.

The intent of SI, especially in JFO, is to help the BS get out of adultery. The posters point out what the see as issues that could hamper that result. One of the worse things that can happen is false R. There are lots of examples of that on this board.

Some of you are so devoid of empathy that I'm not surprised that your marriages have ended. I suspect your marriages would have ended anyway, by some means, had infidelity not visited you. Your windshield and your mirror are full of YOU. There isn't room for the existence or even for the reflection of another person in your life. No empathy to be found.

This is such a dismissive, arrogant and insulting projection to direct at BSs who have gone through the massive trauma of adultery and, in their way, trying to assist someone they fear may be setting themselves up additional trauma.

It's a good thing you have such insight but, perhaps, you should follow your own advice.

In reality, we don't know this person, and we don't know the WS, and we don't know the marriage. We don't even have a complete picture of the facts on the ground-

I doubt you know very much about the people you're badmouthing.

end t/j

I wouldn't call it a lack of empathy, but think about how someone who has been through a trauma sees someone else going through a similar trauma. All of the woulda-coulda-shoulda- feelings come to the surface for them and they are desperately trying to help you short cut the mistakes they made in getting out of infidelity.

It's not that they don't have empathy. It's that they relate too much and hind-sight being 20-20, they see their own situation in yours.

You have to make your own steps and missteps on your way out of infidelity. And you HAVE to trust your gut. You've been told by your WW that your gut is wrong, when it was absolutely right. Don't let our advice become another form of gaslighting to you. It's not intended that way. If you understand where it's coming from (that the advice-givers are coming from a place of wishing they could have a do-over through you - that's why I've referred to them as recruiters in other places) you can follow the ground rule given in 12 step meetings:

"Take what helps and leave the rest."

Gonna step out a little further on this shaky branch... then I'll shut up. I'm way out of my depth here and I know it.

I *think* it was this thread- I don't have time to go back through it now- but I think I remember guys on here telling you to find your anger.

Women have told female BS the same thing on other threads.

I do find it interesting in an academic way that this specific advice tends to split along gender lines- women tell BW to find their anger, men tell BH to find their anger, rarely does this advice cross the gender divide. I have no idea what that means, I simply find it interesting.

Anyway, about that anger:

It is a secondary emotion. It's like the tornado siren of weather reports. It's the adrenaline rush of flight or fight. It can be a huge motivator. It clearly signals a boundary violation and that disrespect has occurred. It's not necessarily a great OS however.

I know. I've been stuck in anger for several months. Others here on SI have rightfully called me out on it.

I think it's actually much more mature, and much more healthy, that you and your wife are experiencing sadness. No matter what each of you decides to do, or what both of you decide to do together, you have to mourn the relationship you've lost- as wonderful or as flawed or both as it might be.

I think you will get to resolution more quickly, and with less damage, from a place of grief than from a place of anger. JMHO.

Some of you are so devoid of empathy that I'm not surprised that your marriages have ended. I suspect your marriages would have ended anyway, by some means, had infidelity not visited you. Your windshield and your mirror are full of YOU. There isn't room for the existence or even for the reflection of another person in your life. No empathy to be found.

SteadyChevy:

This is such a dismissive, arrogant and insulting projection to direct at BSs who have gone through the massive trauma of adultery and, in their way, trying to assist someone they fear may be setting themselves up additional trauma.

It's a good thing you have such insight but, perhaps, you should follow your own advice.

It's heavy handed, I will admit that. I don't mean it to be dismissive or arrogant toward you or toward anyone else. My apologies if it offends you.

Obviously some WS are so flawed and toxic and irredeemable that any sort of compassion or empathy is misguided and dangerous. Those BS can rightfully tell me to pound sand and I will.

Sometimes infidelity of specific forms or of any form is a complete deal breaker for the BS. Doesn't mean that the WS is a completely unsympathetic figure but that the BS simply cannot forgive this injury. Ok, fair enough.

There's something about the absolute totality of "WE'VE SEEN THIS A MILLION TIMES, IT ALWAYS GOES THIS WAY!" followed by a flow chart of nuclear options and ultimatums to be delivered to the WS and lines drawn and stances taken that, while applicable in some cases, in many cases, hell, in most cases if you will, it just raises the hair on the back of my neck.

Yes, the BS is the victim. Yes, the BS has experienced a huge trauma. But that doesn't mean that completely dehumanizing the WS is the best answer for the BS, even if the BS isn't interested in reconciling.

WS screwed up. Big time. BS got injured. Big time. There's a place in here somewhere for grace... and with some of the most strident posts on here, I can't find it. I don't see it. Maybe it's there and I'm not reading well for comprehension. Maybe it's there but the persons who are posting aren't sharing this aspect.

It just bothers me when it appears to be completely absent, and when that absence of grace is being promoted as a position of strength.

YMMV, you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, and I do apologize for offending you.

Bahama it is your life. Do what you feel you need to do.

Devoid of empathy? I would hasten to say that many of the posters here, especially the veterans, act purely from a huge well of empathy having experienced and survived the same trauma.

In reality, we don't know this person, and we don't know the WS, and we don't know the marriage. We don't even have a complete picture of the facts on the ground-

At this point, Bahama doesn't even know the WS. She's a stranger to him. That's why this is all so disorienting. His world has been flipped upside down. Right is now wrong. Up is now down.

We may not have the whole picture. But if you've been on SI long enough you can start to see and predict human behavior. Especially WS behavior. They ALL follow the same pattern. Bahama's WW's is no different. Sure, the details may be a little different, the FOO issues varied slightly. But the same broken behavior, especially in the wake of JFO are so eerily the same.

Bahama, don't be too quick to forgive. You're trying to hack this part of the process to possibly save yourself from further pain. That's just another form of rugsweeping. There's no getting through this quickly. The ride has only just begun and it gets way worse. Only time, lots and lots of time, will tell if your WW's behaviors are real or just for show.

So many of us seem like we're clamoring to guide you only because we don't want to see you make the same mistakes we did, myself included.

I wish you peace, Bahama.

I'm grappling with so much right now. I know I'm still in crisis mode and not past the A. There are many discussions that still need to be had. There is much time that will need to pass. I don't know where it all will lead. I just have to trust my feelings and my gut and take it moment by moment.

And that is completely normal after the life altering event you're going through, have those discussions, process them, and come to terms with it, it's going to be a long and painful process but it will get better with time, so know that what you're experiencing is normal but also know that you will get through this, as time goes by you will know whether to stay in this M or D, but at that point you will be much better prepared both mentally and emotionally.

Your feelings are 100% normal. Up down, positive, at a loss, confused, decisive. You will be ok, eventually.

Right now you are still in the panic mode, like your house is on fire and you are trying to protect your kids, save things and put out the fire.

Soon you may hit the anger mode when you understand that your wife and her boyfriend intentionally set the place (and his place) on fire because the warmth made them happy. Not really understanding that she'd need to explain the charred shell of a life her actions would leave behind.

Before you rebuild, be sure as you can be that it is worth it.

Marriageredux959.... I think your self reflection that your comment was heavy handed is accurate. You could have phrased it better...realizing that some of these posts you are calling out come from an enormous depth of pain that hopefully will one day be worked through constructively.

However, I agree with your observations that some people occassionally post very one sided, "only this way will work" advice. It seems like a percentage of these posts are deliberately encouraging vindictive behavior that would set someone only on the path to divorce. Although that may be the outcome for many BS readers it does not serve many others very well.

The sober, adult mind can sort through myriad opinions and advice to find the balance... but I fear many newly BS may not have that faculty intact as they make early decisions after DD.

Still, part of the beauty of this forum is the contrasting points of view. I have never seen a thread where, when someone urgently cries "go nuclear", there aren't at least several other, more reasoned voices also providing counsel.

Bahama, marriageredux has some interesting thoughts. If you don’t mind I’m going to share the divorce of a relative of mine. He and his wife had a wonderful, loving marriage. They had children and life was great. He is very well educated and was recruited into a company that was expanding rapidly. He climbed the ladder until he was in management. His job began to require him to work 60 then 70 then 80 hrs. a week. On top of that with his new income the family made the stupid mistake of buying a huge house they really could not afford. He said they both went crazy with credit cards and bought their kids anything they wanted. All of a sudden it became hell on earth to him. He felt like he was drowning. He had been friends with a girl in high school who was on his Facebook page and said she was coming through town. They agreed to meet for lunch. He said as soon as he sat down he fell in love. Their affair lasted a total of 2 months and tore his marriage apart. Looking back he said the affair had nothing to do with his marriage. He just wanted to run away from his life. The one good thing is that neither parent ever used anything against the other and their children seem to have come through it just fine. He said until this catastrophe hit him he had never once thought about cheating on his wife and is still surprised that he did it. In fact, he and the woman went back to being friends and that’s all. She is a nice looking woman but his exwife is beautiful. Looks have nothing to do with the affair sometimes. Sometimes it’s just someone making a really stupid decision but there are lifelong consequences. If I have any suggestion to anyone continuing to read this it is to get yourselves out of debt. This relative said that that was the overwhelming factor to him feeling like he was going under. It has taken a long time for him to get his finances straight.

Bahama, your wife sounds like it was very slow friendship and shared hobby that morphed into an emotional affair. If she is telling the truth that the sex was secondary to her then what she was getting out of it was just the newness of it all. I hope the two of you can work things out. I really do. Sometimes marriages need to end but it sounds like until the affair the two of you had a good marriage.

You're definitely on the roller coaster which isn't fun. I think overall your doing great. The only thing that I would caution u to watch for is the self defeating talk from your WS. And maybe this is something she can address in counseling. I completely understand feeling that way so soon after DDay. Just don't let her make it a self full filling prophesy. I.e. you're never going to forgive me so I give up type attitude that some WS fall into. This may happen later down the road and it's just something to watch out for especially further down the line when sometimes WS get frustrated having to constantly reassure us BS'. Good luck and we're all here for you.

[This message edited by childofcheater at 3:44 PM, March 7th (Thursday)]

Bahama,

I can say this. My W ended her affair just over a year now. I didn't find this forum until 9 months after the final D Day. Part of me wished I had found this site during the A, but part of me is happy that I did not.

You will get a ton of opinions from all angles. You should take the time to read them all and weigh what is best for what you feel.

These are the things I wish I had done after D Day:

1) Demand a detailed timeline but read it only when you are absolutely prepared if ever. As you get further out from the A, details and memories get distorted or lost.

2) Demand a copy of all correspondences that your W and the AP had together. Letters, FB messages, texts, e-mails, etc. By the time I really realized that I needed to see these they were deleted destroyed, etc. I have tried to recover some of these with the aid of my W (I do wonder sometimes how sincere her efforts were) but with no real success. This is the biggest obstacle still for me in Reconciliation. The fact that there are so many details that your W and AP have shared and you can't have access to them. I think if R fails for us, this might be the reason. The unknown is torture.

3) If you experience hysterical bonding, do not let that cloud your thought process. Do not let that prevent you from questioning your W. HB is real and it is strong, it may give you the illusion that all is ok, but when it ended for me I felt a wave of regret, anger, despair that I let my wife off the hook without her facing real consequences. I'm not saying all of HB is bad, in fact I loved a lot of the reconnecting with my wife, just don't use it as a way to rugsweep.

Hi Bahama,

I haven’t read all the responses and don’t post often, but I hope you’ll realize sooner rather than later that the A had nothing to do with the M . Nothing. One of the things about SI is that people have gone through exactly what you have. Not everyone. Some had good Ms, some not. It sounds like yours was good, you said yours was bulletproof. I felt the same way. In some ways, I thought I would come here and be unique because no one had the solid marriage I did. I was wrong. Still, my pain was mine, and I had to go through it. You’ll do the same because your life is yours and only you live it.

I’m off track though. What I wanted to say is that it was not the M. You seem to care very deeply for your wife, but You need to focus on you. It seems like your wife had plenty to be happy about a rewarding job, a loyal H, daughters cared for by a loving H, time to devote to a hobby/exercise, etc. Sounds pretty good to me. I’m sure she saw it differently like demanding job, sole financial support, not seeing kids enough. She probably had to have her exercise to de-stress. Do you see it’s all perspective? She could have felt grateful but instead chose put upon. She needs to fix that. You can’t, so focus on what you want. What do you want from life, from the M? Worry less about her “needs”.

All the best.

R or D are not the only possible choices. Temp separation is a 3rd. Bahama you have the option of seeing if there is a better option for you out there. whether your WS intended to or not she has been testing a possible replacement for you. she is not quite the woman you thought she was. the resentment that she has done this and you haven't done the equivalent is going to build and build. maybe she is ultimately the best choice - but you deserve to exercise the option of finding out

Just for arguments sake (and since I've lit myself on fire on this thread anyway, I might as well pour some gasoline on it )

What if Bahama and Mrs. Bahama get their stuff together in therapy?

What if they figure out a believable "Why?" and address it?

What if this was a one time screw up for Mrs. Bahama? She screwed up, big time. Learned her lesson. Never does this thing nor anything like it again?

Here's a radical thought:

What if this situation requires absolutely *nothing more* than what has basically already happened? No pound of flesh needed. No surveillance. No passwords. No VAR. No polygraph. No timeline. No drop dead hard and fast rules about contact or no contact or "If you so much as see this man's vehicle on the road you will report to me immediately!" type of monitoring.

What if these two adults stand in front of each other, look each other in the eye, and say,

"That was stupid. It will never happen again. I'm sorry I disrespected you. I'm sorry I disrespected our family and put it in jeopardy. I'm sorry I disrespected our past and all of the work and commitment you've invested in being my husband. I'm sorry I jeopardized our future and put it at risk. I'm sorry I took advantage of your trust. I know why I did it and it was because BLAH BLAH BLAH FOO issues, work stress, wanted to escape my life, loved the attention, needed the adrenaline rush, BLAH BLAH BLAH and here's how I'm going to address that. Or, I have no idea why I did that stupid thing but I'm going to therapy and I'm going to find out."

"I accept your apology and your re-commitment to us. I forgive you. If you do this again, I'm gone- but I'm going to have faith in this moment that you will never do it again."

And, just like that- it's over. Moving on.

Yes, I know, RUG SWEEPING. But what if it's not?

^^ That's pretty much what happened to me.

It was rug-sweeping for us, because in our youth and naivete, Husband minimized. He told me the accurate basics of what happened. He didn't get into the gritty details because he didn't want to drag his young wife, the mother of his two babies, through the mud of it. I didn't deserve that.

We had a substantial disconnect at that point. I realized that he had a load of guilt that seemed disproportionate to his narrative. He realized that I forgave quickly, easily, almost too much so- but he was grateful and we quickly moved on.

I had no idea what I was forgiving, and he had only half a clue (if that) of how severely I'd misinterpreted the narrative he told.

I'd like to point out here that:

a. Husband did not tell the complete, whole, entire truth at the initial confession. If he had, chances are our marriage would have taken a severe turn for the worse. It was a sensitive time, a sensitive context for a lot of reasons (won't t/j completely here) and I would have taken this incident in the worst possible light.

b. I never got a "timeline" or any significant detail at that time.

c. The notion of a polygraph to test his assertion that physical festivities stopped where he said they stopped never even occurred to me.

All of the follow up responses to infidelity that seem de rigueur on SI didn't happen.

Husband displayed true remorse, which was quickly replaced with relief, and honestly, some immature rebound too quickly "business as usual" behaviors. We were young, and he was giddy grateful that I didn't blow him or the marriage up. But otherwise, all of the crap we tend to throw at "remorse vs. regret" and reconciliation just didn't happen with or for us.

And yet, Husband has never had a repeat incident.

Husband did a thing he shouldn't have done. I've described the basics of it on SI, but I've omitted some detail, obscured some detail, changed some things around entirely to protect our privacy. It wasn't a full blown, multiple incident affair (hence I often say that my situation doesn't compare to most) but he was definitely, physically, out of his lane and over the line.

Over the ensuing years, Husband has been subjected to absolutely zero surveillance, zero monitoring, and in fact is free to move about as a grown man doing things that grown men do- including the occasional visit (with or without me) to adult entertainment venues.

I don't have his computer and phone passwords, and I don't want them. I have enough trouble remembering all of my own passwords. If I want or need his passwords to his phone or his computer (occasionally I need them for basic household function stuff) he freely gives them. I could write them down and check up on him but frankly I don't want to be bothered.

He leaves his phones sitting face up all over the house. Yes, he has two (2) phones, one work phone and one personal phone. He sometimes asks me to answer either. If he's outside mowing the grass and unlikely to hear a call or a text, he'll leave the phones with me.

I handle the money, and I am meticulous about it (financial tracking software which I update daily.) His paycheck is direct deposited into the bank and I disperse it to run the household. If there were any missing funds, no matter how small, I'd see them first.

In other words, all of the iterations demanded on SI for transparency, trust re-building, accountability, remorse vs. regret, character transplants, none of that stuff happened with Husband, and yet I can say with great confidence that his one indiscretion was a one off.

He hated what he did, he hated himself for doing it (even though he enjoyed it mightily while it was happening) and he's never done it again. Despite the fact that the man still has his testicles and still loves women- actually loves a wide variety of women, he likes a wide variety of looks and attitudes- he's never stepped over that line again.

Radical thought- some WS can and do self correct without having the equivalent of a monogamy constitution ratified on their asses, and without being pulled through the wringer over it.

Husband has definitely been pulled through the wringer for lo these several months since DDay#2 (same incident) revealed the true nature, involvement and duration of the transgression.

I'm honestly not sure that it's helped anything, or changed anything... at least not in terms of infidelity.

It's highlighted some other issues in our relationship and in his ingrained behavior patterns (FOO issues, mostly) that we are addressing, but I don't think the agony of these past several months has made the infidelity any less likely.

In fact, I've worried at times that it's made it more likely for both of us. No sign of that so far, but the thought that this dredging is damaging us more than helping us has crossed my mind.

Radical idea, I know, that not every infidelity requires scorched earth as a response.

If anybody wants me, I'm over here hiding behind the fire extinguishers and trying to fabricate an asbestos suit. =/

Duplicate post

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 6:39 PM, March 7th (Thursday)]