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One more thought.

I think that I may never be able to understand the why and how she was able to do this. No explanation may ever be acceptable. Perhaps in time, the R comes from accepting that it happened and still having the pain, finding true forgiveness, feeling safe again with my wife, and realizing that living with this memory between us is something I can do. Something we can do. That some new love and understanding can eventually grow and overpower the hurt. I hope we can get there.

I agree. There is never an explanation or logical answer to that question. Except because the cheater was selfish put their desires first.

The “I deserve to be happy” mentality. No matter what it takes or who it hurts. Just like an addict.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:45 AM, March 9th (Saturday)]

Time you'll find fixes a lot of things. As long as you're both putting the needed work in.

It's ok to take a break from the forum. It's whatever you need at this time.

You'll never be able to rafionalze irrational behavior.

I hear people talk about how it's going to take a long time if we can get there. I understand that. It keeps me in a place of patience.

I also hear about all the "work" to be done. I understand that as well. I know it's going to take some painful work to try and recover. I do sometimes feel lost on what to do now. I feel like I'm just letting whatever happens to happen. I know there's not a road map for this process, but I often find I'm with her and I just don't know what to do or say. There's a lot of awkward silences as we sit with our own thoughts and feelings.

I think I'm going to do some writing today. Maybe get my thoughts and feelings on paper and organized. I may share all, some, or none of them with her right now.

One day at a time, one moment at a time.

[This message edited by Bahama at 9:57 AM, March 9th (Saturday)]

Bahama:

Hysterical bonding is a very normal response, so enjoy it! I know it was a definite upside to when my fWW and I got together. Yes, the “why” question needs to be addressed if you are ever to feel safe again in the M. The whole “I was so lonely and unhappy, and I didn’t think you loved me” thing is a common rationalization often seen in many A’s here. The key question is, whether, assuming the the reasons for unhappiness were real and valid, and not just a misperception or excuse, why did your WW not come to you and address these issues rather than turn outside of her M to complain to someone outside the M? How did she think turning to the OM with her resentments and complaints would resolve those issues or make your M better? Obviously, they never would.

I used to actively run and train for marathons for over twenty years. I had training partners, one guy and two women, all M, and we ran thousands of miles together over the course of seventeen years. We are all good friends. We talked about everything in our lives, work, kids, activities, vacations, you name it, but never about our marriages or any complaints about our spouses. Your WW needs to address her “whys” that she felt that this was appropriate behavior.

Right now you both seem to be doing all of the right things. IMO your perspective and outlook on this matter is fine. Keep on, keepin on.

[This message edited by fareast at 9:59 AM, March 9th (Saturday)]

The 'why' - perhaps read some of the WW stories on the Wandering Forum here on SI. some of them are similar to your WW. Mrs Walloped seems somewhat similar. The need for attention, validation, loneliness etc. Worth reading some....

BS ONLY

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:23 PM, October 14th (Monday)]

Hi Bahama,

I think that I may never be able to understand the why and how she was able to do this.

I think that can be a big element in the aftermath. Kind of like finding out that the nice old guy from down the street went into work one day and shot several people. It shakes our faith, and doubt our judgement.

The truth is that people are always more than we see, and that cuts both ways in terms of 'good' and 'bad'. It can leave us wondering if the person we married has been replaced by a sociopathic impostor.

Our disorientation stems from the way we put people on a pedestal when we love them, until we go through a experiences like this, which show us that our perfect angel or our knight in shining armour have feet of clay, and dysfunctional parts of their personalities.

Does that mean they cannot redeem themselves? No, because people are capable of both growth and change. Look at yourself; you are not the man you were at 18. Or at 25. We actually change every day, in ways so small that they are undetectable.

What happens with infidelity is that people demonstrate the dark side of their character. The weak spots. The holes in the fence. We all have them, and we all battle them. We all have our skeletons in the closet. In healthy personalities, that leads to learning, and a desire to not repeat behaviour that we regret or feel remorse about.

The point with holes in the fence is that in a healthy mind-set, we mend them when we find them. In an unhealthy mind-set, we climb through them.

And in my view, your wife was in an unhealthy mind-set when she gave herself the mental permission to cheat. The same kind of place where people are when they give themselves permission to rob a liquor store. They surrender to the conjoined twins that enable so much negative behavior in human beings: resentment and entitlement.

"I resent being broke, so I am entitled to rob the liquor store".

Resentment and entitlement. It really is a chicken and egg situation. Does a sense of entitlement lead to resentment, or does entitlement arise from resentment? However it happens, it is a totally negative process, and one that your wife fell into.

However, we have to stay grounded. Affairs happen when the affair partners are attracted to one another. If people are in a healthy mind-set, and they are committed to an 'exclusive' relationship, they can experience advances from many attractive people and not fall off the proverbial straight and narrow.

If people have already slipped into the resentment-entitlement cycle, where the two elements reinforce and fuel one another, they are much more susceptible to an inappropriate advance from a third party. The resulting affair actually validates both resentment and entitlement; "I am now getting the attention that I deserve, after being deprived of it. Why should I feel guilty about that?"

As betrayed spouses, we can come up with a million cast-iron rebuttals to that question, but as we grapple with the question of what messed-up alternate universe our wayward partners were inhabiting, we need to recognise the way dysfunctional thought processes work.

We also have to accept that our wayward spouses may well have focused and fed their resentment to enable themselves to cheat as (1) their right to 'appreciation', and (2) a way to get back at the target of their resentment, who they cast as a wrong-doer who is undeserving of loyalty.

This combination of factors is not behind every infidelity; however, it does seem that the self-reinforcing circle of resentment-entitlement was a big factor in your wife's decision-making process: "I am just a pay-check to you". So how much loyalty do you deserve?

Totally and utterly effed up. And yet...It happens every day, particularly when people do not give voice to their concerns.

Why do we keep so much to ourselves? Why did your wife not take you aside and tell you that she felt like she was being neglected when she came home? Why did she stay quiet, and allow that resentment to build, then respond to a selfish opportunist? Questions to put to her, and the answers will provide a project plan for change.

...we were there in this setting, but we were not really there. Both of us were lost in our thoughts about us and where to go from here.

Bahama, that is entirely natural. Please do not worry that this state is going to last. It passes. Normalisation takes time to arrive, and depends on a combination of time and proven commitment.

Before I go, I want co close on these thoughts:

Forgiveness is not endorsement.

We forgive people, not individual acts.

Forgiveness takes time; meaningful forgiveness cannot be rushed.

Forgiveness is not essential for reconciliation; acceptance is, coupled with a commitment to change by the wayward spouse.

Don't be afraid to release your thoughts here, we're here to support you, sometimes you won't like the responses but that's ok too, you're still in shock that the person you trusted the most could do this to you, eventually you may come back and re-read your own thread and realize some of our questions and responses made sense at the time, you will find similarities in other BS's stories, so enjoy HB, it's human nature, we sometimes warn BSs about it because sometimes sex is used as a weapon to manipulate the BS and of course because of STDs, there's nothing wrong with that and it's normal, however you both need to get tested for STDs (full panel), maybe I've missed it but I don't remember you stating that she did it and that the results came back clean, if she's still fertile, also a pregnancy test is recommended, this may shock you but we've seen the stories here and other websites way too many times.

Now eternal "why" question, it often has to do with loose boundaries and attraction for AP (not always), selfishness, disregard for the BS, entitlement and/or just because she simply wanted to and felt good. A's are often described as an addiction, however typically before the addiction takes place you have to try the drug and get high for the first time, at that point the boundary had already been crossed. As with any addiction, she would need intense IC to find out those "whys" to make you feel safe again, if it's not addressed propertly, it may comeback to haunt you in the future 5, 10 or 15 years from now, you can read the stories here, they're not that uncommon. The I didn't think you loved/cared about me is just simply bullshit and she should know it, remember she went through great lengths to hide this from you and that it would still be ongoing today had you not caught her, she's gonig to have to do a ton of work to face the ugly truth of why she decided to commit the ultimate betrayal to her husband.

Don't forget to have her read "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass, among other things, it addresses the issue of poor/loose boundaries, the slippery slope before the A, all in an effort to make the relationship affair proof. You can download it if you prefer, you may even decide to read it together and discuss it, or you may read it separately at your own pace then discuss it.

Having read copious numbers of books and articles on the internet I'd recommend your WW read "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. McDonald first, Bahama. It's short and to the point. She can follow that up with "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. Both good. There are a few things in Not Just Friends that shifts some responsibility to the betrayed, IIRC.

Bahama.... you continue to make admirable progress both individually and with your W.

As others have said, I do hope she is also doing her own work to understand her why's. But she certainly sounds full of remorse which is very, very encouraging.

You asked yourself in a recent post... why did she have sex if it wasn't about that and she didn't feel good about it? That is part of her work to discover .... but the literature on affairs documents this very thing.

Different researchers and writers break things out differently but most would acknowledge at least 3 types of affairs. Sexual, emotional and exit affairs. Your W had an emotional affair. Here on this forum that usually means no sex but in much of the literature it means something a bit different---- the person was craving emotional attention and sex may still happen but it is not the focus... not what the person is seeking.

If you read on it you will see that many WS in an emotional affair can feel ambivalent about the sex. Some may enjoy it but others, like your wife, find it was a semi-awkward outcome of craving the emotional attention from the AP.

The why of course is likely haunting for both BS and WS. The WS answering that through IC is important. But don't doubt that it is very possible she experienced exactly what she is trying to explain to you because it fits a pretty common profile of an emotional affair.

Those were all some very helpful replies. It was nice to read some wisdom from those far ahead of me on the thinking curve.

Regarding the sex, I am enjoying it. Her statement about it not being about the sex with her AP has consumed my thoughts today. I'm going to do some writing and see if I can focus my thoughts more. While she has given me a sanitized version of the PA, "we had sex", I now feel the need to ask more specific questions about the PA side of things. I'm also terrified of knowing all of it. I want to ask things like "Was he good in bed? How long did the sessions last? Did you do things with him that you'd never done with me? What specific acts did you do with him? How did you feel during, after? When you had sex, did you know you were going to do it before you met, or was it spontaneous? If you were racked with guilt after the first time, why did you keep doing it? If you didn't enjoy it, why did you keep doing it? If you were satisfied with our sex life, why did you keep doing it? How frequently did you get together for sex? How long was it between meetings?" I know all these questions are going to be very uncomfortable for her to answer and twice as hard for me to hear.

I keep thinking about the details I don't have in our history as being more than missing information that I may not want to hear. I can understand now how it feels like she still has secrets about the affair that she's keeping from me. I'd rather rip off the bandaid now than have this bubble up later on. I don't know.

She just texted me as I'm typing this thanking me for stopping by her work earlier today when I went to pick up our girls. One of the things she had told me she wanted to do as part of the process of healing is to make sure we wear our wedding rings. Neither of us are ring people and our lifestyles and hobbies don't always work well with rings. It was never a symbolic detachment for us, we just typically left them sitting on the bathroom counter. She said she was going to make sure to wear hers as much as possible. Last night when we went on our date I noticed in the car that she was wearing her ring and that I'd forgotten mine. I felt really bad about it but she said she understood I'd just forgotten and didn't take it personally. Today after she left for work I was in our bathroom and noticed she'd forgotten hers this time. I picked it up and drove to her work. She smiled to see me and hugged me hard. When she let go I took her hand and slid the ring on her finger. She about cried and thanked me. I pointed out that I was wearing mine again. A small act I know, but I think it helped.

Lots of thoughts and pain today.

One day at a time, one moment at a time.

There are entire threads on SI about the impact of knowing the physical/sexual details in the affair.

Before anybody jumps on me, I know this is a generalization! but based on some of the threads on SI, it seems like absorbing/assimilating the sexual details is particularly hard on BHs.

That being said, Husband's indiscretion was nothing but physical and sexual- there was absolutely no emotional connection- and I haven't found the purely sexual/physical nature of it to be particularly easy to dismiss. It's been hard on me as a BW as well.

Based on the threads on SI, and on my own experience (for what that's worth) might I make a small recommendation?

If you decide you want this type and degree of detail disclosed, might you wait until both of you are in marriage counseling, and do this disclosure with some professional guidance?

A MC can guide the process, create a safe cadence, help you understand and decide what's helpful to know, vs. what's likely to create harmful mind movies and mental pictures.

I know that many on here feel that dragging everything out into the air and into the light "sanitizes it," so to speak. The physical intimacies of the affair are stripped of their privacy and intimacy and are no longer an "intimacy gap" in your marriage. This information belongs to you as well then, it is no longer hidden from you or kept from you.

I respect that position.

I will tell you that it's damned difficult if not impossible to unring a bell.

I wish I'd had this particular part of our disclosure process in the presence of, or at least under the guidance of, a professional therapist. I don't think the miles of mind movies and the physical comparisons that I inevitably made between her body and mine (even though I know for a fact that my husband appreciates all varieties of female form) were particularly healthy or helpful to either of us. It became one more facet of damage that we had to manage.

Just a thought- as always, "you do you." :)

I know all these questions are going to be very uncomfortable for her to answer and twice as hard for me to hear.

If they are on your mind you need to ask them. I did, it was tough to hear the details but better than the things I had come up with on my own.

Mine also told me the sex was not because of dissatisfaction at home. I suspect a large majority of BHs hear this. In some cases the WW is lying. In many, I believe they are not .

For those where the sex was not the driving force, I believe many do it and continue with it to keep up the emotional connection or support the AP is giving. For others, it was the adventure, the forbidden thrill, that gave them a break from real life that kept it up. That was my wife. From all that you have written, I am guessing it was yours also.

Doesn’t make it ok. Doesn’t stop the triggers, or anger or hurt.

But having a Whywill, eventually really matter to you. You have to get past these immediate emotions and pain to understand how it will matter, but you will get there.

One thing I have noticed about your recitation of your wife’s words and actions. She doesn’t follow up apology’s or expressions of regret with anything like “ but you know that” or “but it is true that”. She is not trying to blameshift or downplay what she did. That, to me, is tremendously positive.

I applaud you on your approach and handling of your nightmare. You are going to both survive and, eventually, thrive again.

I acknowledge her short term progress but suggest you continue to focus and judge her on her actions going forward not just her words.

Your wife is a health care ER expert and just read the books that you provided so she can help you heal. So her words should be letter perfect.

You wrote that your current sex has explored areas that had never been open to you prior to your unearthing her affair.

Now you want details of her sex with the OM - and you are scared she did these acts and other acts that she denied you.

Do you think she did? That is often the case.

And. If she did give him sex acts which she denied or had not offered to you, what does that mean to you? Does that change anything?

I just re-read the letter she wrote me on Tuesday and it shifted my mind again. I understand her again. I doubt I need to know all this stuff again.

There was a sex act that happened between us for the first time in early February. This was during the A and before my D-Day. It surprised me, excited me, confused me, and threw me into curiosity. There was a good deal of alcohol involved in this session so I attributed it to that. It was something I was going to talk about with her even before D-Day but didn't get the chance. It was like I'd discovered something she enjoyed but had been missing from me for our entire marriage. Or was it something she'd recently discovered she liked and experimented with and finally had the drunken courage to test it with me? Now I wonder if it was something she'd done in the A, and now tried with me. I think that's a real possibility, but do I really want to know? Fuck me, I'm not sure. I did say to her after some of our "hysterical bonding" sex that I'd never known she she enjoyed that type of interaction. She said she always had and discovered it through masturbation but that she didn't think I was comfortable with it.

I think this combined with her comment from last night is what triggered my desire to know more about the sex during the A.

But as marriageredux959 said, I'm not sure I want to ring a bell knowing I can't go back. One minute I do want to know, the next I know I may regret it and it might just make my head worse. I think I'll hold off on the full graphic version for now. The explanation for why the sex was actually in her letter I just read again. She said she noticed during the sex she felt nothing for him, and only that it felt "good to be wanted" and was in stark contrast to the loneliness she was feeling at home.

It's an interesting thought to consider this all as an emotional affair despite there being sex between them. I do agree that from what I've learned from her and through my own observations is that the sex was secondary. This A was all about the emotional side even during the physical stuff. If he hadn't made a move on her and the physical stuff hadn't happened, it wouldn't be much different to me at the base of my hurt.

One day at at time, one moment at a time.