SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WW: "I don't really want to go back to this job, but it's my best chance at making some money, and I only did it because of when you said you were going to spend all the money and divorce me with nothing."

Which is a potential consequence she mentally weighed before hopping into the sack with some random dude on vacation. And that didn't stop her doing it.

WW: "Well I can't just quit now after going through all this and getting hired."

"I want to do what I want to do and I don't care what you feel about it."

WW: "You think I'm going to cheat again?"

Answer 1: "Yes."

Answer 2: "You've done nothing to show me that you have fixed what made you cheat on your husband in the first place, so yes it is a worry."

Answer 3: "Does a bear shit in the woods?"

WW: "So you've given up?"

HCSDI, what exactly are you fighting for here? She has been awful to you. AWFUL. Her behavior to you has been appalling. And here again - it's about her being butthurt that you're not acting the way she wants you to.

WW: "You just want me to grovel. You want me to always be unhappy."

Again - all I see here is wahwahwah mememe, poor meeeeee.

WW: "So you don't see any effort on my part?"

Not particularly.

WW: "You're missing the whole relationship aspect of things. I can't be what you need when we're not close, and I can't get close when you push me away"

Once again - pooooor poor wittle MEEEEEEE whawhawha. And what does that even mean "the relationship aspect of things"? Did she "miss the relationship aspect of things" when she was monkeypiling with a strange dewd? I would say so.

WW: "Well if you would get closer to me..."

Once again. All. about. HER.

WW: "Well I don't always think about it"

Yes. Because clearly her first thought is always HERSELF.

WW: "Well I'm not going to cheat while I'm away. I want to fix things but I don't know what it is going to be like and I don't want to promise anything I can't deliver"

I've said it before HCSDI - she did all the work and put in loads of effort into this job, and has done less that the bare minimum for YOU. LESS than minimum. And she is right - she can't deliver. She hasn't yet. And she likely won't ever.

WW: "Well what do you want?"

I ask this in all seriousness - does she have some form of brain damage? Or amnesia? You have told her this how many times in the last 10 months?? Is she not capable of googling? Or of reading How to help your spouse heal and extrapolating that into some sort of action??

HCSDI - I know how hard objectivity is with your spouse. I struggled with it too believe me. But what you see as hopeful and positive, I myself see as more whining, more blame shifting, more selfish and self-serving drivel from someone who simply doesn't care about anyone but herself. And before you ask - yes I was exactly the same about my xwh. Like taking the teeeeeeeny little crumbs of decency he gave post dday and doing my best to make a cake with them. But what he was doing wasn't enough. And the hard cold reality I had to accept was that he was just not capable of doing the work to fix things. That realization hurt, but accepting that also freed me.

I see so much of myself in you my friend. I did the same dance after dday. I felt the same fear about being... "too" whatever and "pushing him away". I did the same pick-me two step. I accepted the same sorts of blame from him about how I didn't "do" before dday. I did the same trying to make up for all my past 'sins'. But here's the thing. Was I a perfect wife? NO. I wasn't. But I was a damn good one. I provided a nice home and lifestyle for him. I took care of his needs. I loved him the best and purest way I knew how. But what he did was all. about. HIM. It had nothing to do with me. I could have been the best wife in the universe and it still wouldn't have mattered and wouldn't have stopped him cheating. Because that was him trying to fix a hole in himself.

I get the thought, but 'comfort breaks'? Honey she can't comfort you (and more she doesn't want or care to). If she had any concern for your comfort, she would have done something to start fixing what she broke by now. If she cared about your comfort, she wouldn't be taking this job. And emojis? I'm sorry, but what? How on earth is an emoji going to do anything?

I found out the long way round that in order to get better treatment, I had to demand better. In my case, we divorced when I laid that out. But you know? I got out of infidelity. Because what I wanted and needed he was not equipped to provide. And that was okay - at least I knew that finally. It was relief to have some solid ground under me.

Keep processing hcsdi. Really pay attention to how you're feeling while she's gone. Really think about what life looks like with her out of the picture. If you are like me, then I know how scary that thought is. But you owe it to yourself to give it some serious consideration.

I agree with Mrs. Walloped about that conversation. It was painful to read. I understand why it would make you feel positively but it doesn't look too good from the outside. Something I noticed about it - you said you wanted her to show as much passion for R as she did for her job by taking ownership of figuring out how she can help you heal and restore the marriage. But when she pushed back against that, YOU took ownership by telling her what to do. And what you told her to do did not meet the original criteria of what you said you wanted. To me, it sounds like these "comfort breaks" are a bandaid. They help you feel better when you're suffering. They help temporarily. They don't address the ACTUAL problems such as her lack of empathy and her lack of putting you first. You handed her a blueprint how to do "just enough" for you to stay but absolved her of the responsiblity of doing what is necessary to become a good wife for you. That's interesting. You may want to re-think what you told her and set a new requirement based on seeing her effort tackling the problems herself instead of relying on you to tell her what earns her a D+ on the test.

Ultimately, I think she's calling your bluff and waiting you out. She's about to leave for a few weeks so it's easier to just give you your comfort breaks now and then she won't have to do anything for you for 5 weeks. Your pesky emotions won't get in her way. She can easily ignore/manage you from a distance if you choose to reach out to her about it. I suspect that when she comes back, things will go right back to how they were. She will "forget" and stop trying unless you badger her again. She may even expect you to be over it by then. Use this time very wisely. Use it to concentrate on yourself and come up with a better list of requirements that place the responsibility of healing back on her. Steel yourself so that when she pushes back against your needs, you won't cave and bring back your goal posts to something "cheap and easy" she can do to make you feel better for a few minutes.

Edit: Part of why she is able to easily manipulate you is because she's catching you off guard. You were surprised that she even had this conversation with you and even though she said all of the exact same DARVO and excuses she always have, you weren't prepared for them. You didn't stand firm against them. This time, roleplay out in your mind what she would say. Read that conversation back to yourself and see if there are some responses that you gave that you would change now if you could and try to imagine how she would respond to them. So next time when you have this conversation again, you will have a better answer to some of the little manipulations she tries to get you to feel bad, feel responsible, and give in to what she wants. Prepare for these conversations like you would for a debate and prepare an argument for whatever she throws your way.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 5:44 PM, Friday, August 13th]

I think its quite obvious this was an exit affair.

She's giving you crumbs, until she leaves, to make the environment at home tolerable for her.

This. My heart breaks for you as it seems to me she has been calculating just how little she can do to make her life as easy as possible till when she is ready to walk away. You're desperate to believe she is interested in R, where her actions, or lack of them, say otherwise. Lay off the hopium pipe. Stop letting her crumbs of simulated affection pick the scabs of your trauma. She's not even close to being all in. Take this time to be single. Do things just for you. Prepare yourself mentally, emotionally, and financially for the inevitable. Let yourself Heal. You should seriously consider hiring a P.I. while she is in training. Maybe finding out she's still acting in outwardly wayword behavior will finally prove to you that she isn't R material.

IMO your wife has (among other issues) some sort of victim mentality where she sees herself as a victim (predisposed to ignore the positive and negatively interpret/twist/distort every day events & interactions as supporting evidence).

And like a lot of toxic attitudes it's escalated over the years to the point where she used it to explain adultery (and of course blame you).

You seem to apologize every time she hip cups which further reinforces she's a victim (and you're an A-hole).

She processed her adultery by blaming you and asking God for forgiveness - and now she's moving on. From the book she gave you to read, she expects you to forgive her and move on.

My point:

I recall it's not the first time your wife asked if you thought she'd cheat again. And it's not the first time you said 'no'.

IMO, under the circumstances it's not a yes vs no answer. And the correct answer is: she is high risk to commit adultery again.

Why? because (without repeating all that's been said on this forum) she hasn't done the work of making herself a safe partner (for you or anyone else).

Further, the last conversation you posted would have been very different if she was even on the path to making herself a safe partner.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 11:49 AM, Saturday, August 14th]

Robert put it well.

It’s not whether or not you think she will cheat. It’s that she will be gone for 5 weeks and "she is still a high risk for cheating".

I’d respond to that question in that manner in the future.

Ask her what she plans to do to make you feel safe these next 5 weeks and all the weeks after when she has to travel 4-5 days a week for her job.

In the meantime I’m glad to see you working on you. Does that include trauma therapy? I hope so.

I think these 5 weeks will be harder than you expect. Hang in there

I think you should hire a PI to observe her a few times (off and on during the last two weeks) and see who she got close to.

For example, who she: meets for breakfast, sits with at lunch & supper or during happy hour or during the weekends. You could have your attorney make the arrangements so there's no financial paper trail back to you.

Among other things, I think you should use the next 5 weeks as a rough preliminary test. Not just about whether she commits adultery again - but to observe whether her behavior (e.g., boundaries) when she thinks nobody is watching makes you feel safe.

In addition to her behavior while away from home, she may develop a continuing friendship with a male co-trainee that makes you feel unsafe (a threat you should know about).

I'm not suggesting that she will have an affair in the next 5 weeks. IMO, it's too soon after D day and it's not her style. She needs to play the victim. Not only does she need to blame you but she also needs the next AP to gradually seduce her (so she can convince herself she didn't 'intend' to have an affair).

Your wife is a long way from being a safe partner.

Your wife (at a minimum) has very poor boundaries. Her affair didn't happen in one night nor did it represent a single decision to cheat. As a mature adult, she knew the direction their relationship was headed long before they had sex. Particularly when she dressed up nice for their last date which consisted of just a couple of drinks and then hopping into his bed. Unless she's stupid, she knew he wasn't meeting her to chat - but to have sex.

Consistent with her victim mentality of not taking responsibility, she allowed the OM to hit on her during the vacation and show her a level of attention (and say things to her) that were clear evidence that he was seeking sex.

Unfortunately, the extent to which she actively/directly encouraged him will never be known because she deleted their texts. The fact that she deleted the texts is evidence that they were suggestive and inappropriate (evidence that contradicts the notion that sex was unanticipated).

Plus your daughter will naturally be reluctant to disclose what she observed with respect to the extent your wife sought out, encouraged, and enjoyed the OM's attention (acted like a single woman).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:26 PM, Saturday, August 14th]

HCSDI,

Your wife sounds just like my ex. She believes she is a good person who would never do anything wrong and certainly not at the level of betraying the person who loved her. The problem with that mentality is whenever she did not live up to that ideal she had to have a reason for her behavior and eventually that became me (e.g I wasn't supportive, I didn't love her, I never loved her, etc.). Her mental and emotional abuse after her affair was much more detrimental to me long term than the actual discovery.

You need to get to a point where you can see who your wife really is and not just the person she thinks she is and has projected to you all these years. Until you can do this you are unlikely to respond appropriately. Continuing to allow her to write the narrative does not help either of you!

How were things before the ons? She comes across as emotionally unavailable. I know that is an overused term, but you should do some reading on the subject. She seem unequipped to deal with the issue she created and literally does not know how to act or even feel.

No I don’t think this was an exit A, or that she is going to jump in bed with anyone at work. I think that she had an idea that rubbing her ons on your face would get you to change towards her, and realized too late that it had the opposite effect. She gets hostile and sulks because she has no idea how or willingness to deal with your pain. So she goes into her mode that has worked in the past.

You have been in this loop for months, like two gladiators dancing around without striking a blow. Sometimes inaction is a decision. Really, if you are in wait and see mode, you will remain there. She won’t cheat again, and won’t feel what you feel. She just doesn’t seem to roll that way.

HCSDI

It is so sad to read your interactions with WW.

Forgive me for being honest. Reading between the lines, it seems finance is very important to you. Your fear of what divorce will do to your finance (and retirement) seems to dictate, or at least has major influence on, your decision to R or D. I totally understand and agree it is royally unfair that you have to split your hard earned money with your WW if you decide to D because of her infidelity.

That being said, your WW is well aware of your fear too and there is no incentive for her to change. She can simply wait you out as the longer she stays the more 'lost' you will incur when it comes to D and the more you are unwilling to move in that direction. I am sorry you are in this quagmire and don't have much constructive advise to offer.

Best of luck.

How are things progressing? How has the interactions been since she has been away? Any updates?

Thank you for asking. It has been exactly what I expected. On the one hand amicable, but on the other hand cold and distant.

But none of that matters any longer. She came back over the weekend and I told her I can't do this anymore and that I will be pursing D. Oddly, like WTF oddly, she seemed upset. We talked briefly on what things would look like for the kids, that I care about her and the kids and want the best possible relationship as parents for them.

I feel a ton better, like a huge weight has been lifted off. Plus, this is the first time in many months that I've seen any type of emotional response from her and it feels strangely validating. I'm not sure where she thought this whole mess was going but this isn't the end that I wanted, I simply was given no choice.

We're still sleeping in the same bed and occupying the same living space, and things have been pleasant. The resentment and stress I was carrying has been slowly melting away, like my system can see the day where I am out of infidelity. We really haven't talked since, I think we're both in a little bit of shock, although I don't really expect to talk about anything substantial ever again.

She leaves on Friday for another 3 weeks. That's for the best. We haven't told anyone yet, the kids don't know, I think it would be better to get a few things figured out before we tell them.

So thanks for asking. It feels strange. I never, ever thought I would be here.

What changed since your conversation 2-3 weeks ago?

You had told her what you need, and then you said:

She was, for the most part, not defensive and seemed receptive to hearing it. Since that talk she has seduced me sexually, been closer, and provided comfort breaks every day.

So we'll see how these 5 weeks go. She'll be coming home a couple times for the weekend too. For the most part I feel fine, and the family is otherwise doing fine too.

And then she left.

What made you change your mind and tell her your divorcing her when according to you she seemed receptive to your requests for the things you felt you needed? She's been away since that conversation, right? So there wasn't an opportunity for her to implement those things yet.

I'm not disagreeing with your decision. I'm just wondering what cause the 180 degree change in your decision?

This is the right decision. Congratulations on finding the courage to do it.

If she realizes that you truly are the most important thing and changes her life, doesn’t srltart a job that takes her away 5 days a week, focuses on the pain her affair caused you and focuses on you and the family and not herself, and does intense IC on why she cheated then maybe you can pause and re-evaluate.

But she is no where near there right now. Her focus has always been on her and her alone. Not what you want. Not the pain uou feel. Not on how to make you feel safe.

That is not a person who is exhibiting remorse or empathy. There is nothing there to work with.

Keep posting as you go through the D process. You will experience ups and downs throughout and will need support.

How Could She Do It

Your wife is most likely part of a group from all different parts of a geography, not local people to you. She is not totally dumb, and unless she is an idiot she is not going to hook up with anyone at this training session which could get her bounced on her ass out of this job she so enthusiastically wanted. That DOES NOT mean that she may not pass her contact information to others, which happens a lot when new employees do that so they can get some support and friendship in the new job, especially in a situation where they are all new. I think it would be a waste of time to spend the money for a PI at the training session location. She IS going to be at dinners with men present, she is going to be at cocktail hours with men present, and she IS going to be happily socially interacting with them.

The resentment that she claimed to carry towards you for a long time make the entire assumption that she never cheated before very suspect, and you never pressed her on that. I am going to say again that I would bet that most WW will tell you that the FIRST time they did it was the most difficult mentally, and for her to do what she did in front of your daughter is still mind boggling to me.

No matter what you choose, letting your wife call all the shots in never going to make you feel safe. Why would you??? There are still a lot of unanswered questions that she is not going to answer.

Thank you for sharing. Congratulations on exiting an abusive relationship. Your reaction (a huge sense of relief) is not surprising.

Your wife's reaction (surprise) is also not surprising given her lack of empathy, including her self centered attitude/focus.

Since your oldest and adult daughter was a witness to her affair, you might consider informing her first.

Be careful that your wife doesn't later behind your back spin the story to your kids that the divorce is your fault because you can't forgive her (or act as a true Christian).

I suggest you make it clear that you still love her and forgive her.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 3:10 PM, Wednesday, September 1st]

(((hcsdi)))

Oh buddy I am so sorry you had to get to the D decision.

But, I am really glad for you that you did. I know it doesn't feel like it right this minute, but I promise you that D is not the worst thing and there is a wonderful, peaceful, amazing life for you on the other side of it.

Get it done as quickly and amicably as you can. Sending good juju your way!

MrsWalloped
What changed since your conversation 2-3 weeks ago?

One of two things, depending on your perspective:
-I either couldn't keep my big mouth shut and added insult upon demands
or
-I reached out for reassurance and received defensiveness, and ultimately rejected

The day before she was to leave I said something like "Well this is it for a while, I know you're going but I'm uncomfortable with it."
WW:"I know"
<silence>
Me:"It's going to be difficult for me, and I'm hoping when you see my name on your phone you'll remember that I'm uncomfortable"
WW:"Why again did want me to put an emoji by your name?"
Me:"To remind you that I could use reassurance"
WW:"Well, it is having the opposite effect"
<starts to walk away>
Me:"Well do you feel I'm being controlling?"
WW:<exasperated sigh> "No"

After that she sought to have my daughter drive her to the airport instead of me, and then all the while she was gone she did call me everyday, but I didn't receive the reassurance I asked her for. Not once.

Then a couple days before she came home she made mention something like "I'm hoping we can work things out and DD can come with us" which I said
Me:"I do too, but I'm very, very hurt that I didn't get what I asked for."
WW:"I know. I can't do it."
Me:"Ok"
<silence>
WW:"I gotta go"
Me:"Ok"
<click>
Then never called me again, and texted me flight details when she was on her way home.

Later after I told her I was moving to D, she just went with it. I asked her "When did you give up?" She said "The argument before I left. When did you give up?" "That last conversation before you came home" which wasn't exactly true, but that last conversation was the clincher that it is over.

So I suppose I was being a clingy beta-male simp, but I tend to see the situation as the last straw on 10 months of a defensive and unwilling attitude.

I feel better, and I feel lighter now having absolutely no expectation that she come to the table to R.

Rage
All your points are valid. The good news is that I really don't care anymore.

Stevesn
I wouldn't say it is courage, it simply feels I had no choice. If I wanted out of infidelity, I was not given any other way.

Robert
Interestingly, I can now see a path to forgiving her. With this decision I have taken myself out of the mess, and I don't feel like dwelling on it any longer.

Ellie
Thank you as always, for the kind words.

I suggest that you'll feel even better if you file for divorce rather than wait for her to do it.
Will you cite adultery in the divorce filing?

I suggest you be civil at all times during the divorce but from now on treat her as someone you can no longer confide in or trust to have your back.

Be defensive (but civil). After she talks strategy with her attorney she may not just be cold (as usual) but hostile.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 9:06 PM, Wednesday, September 1st]

Unfortunately it seemed that this is how your story was going to end. My opinion, after what she had done, she was looking for excuses on why she did what she did, rather than what she could do to fix. She was looking for something/someone to blame.

She may run away off into another life rather than face what she had done. Or she may finally look at her self in the mirror and come back to the table.. with her hat in her hand...

Either way self improvement for you is the better course. Exercise, upgrade your wardrobe. Improve your vocation.

It will take you awhile before you will have some stability. Improving your situation puts you in a better place for when you are ready to progress into another stage in your life.

Best for you going forward.