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Jimmy-

Not really. I think it’s like my other response to your thread- to recognize all of that would have defeated the purpose of the affair. That sounds selfish and it was. But the affair was fantasy/escape so anything that would have hampered me much was pushed aside.

I was in denial about a lot of things. To say I had that as a cognizant thought, no not until afterwards. I didn’t anticipate the damage or what it would mean for my h. The lack of innocence I think is probably more deeply felt by the innocent party - the person who is blindsided. We don’t lose that in the same way I don’t think.

Maise,

I don't know what kind of articles you are reading or where they are coming from but they are a work of fiction, of someone's imagination. It just simply not true, at least from my experience and that of other waywards here.

For waywards that have put in work toward recovery...when you think of the affair now, and when you think of sex with AP vs your spouse now, how do they compare?

I do not think about the A unless my BH wants to talk about something, which really never happens anymore. We are over 3 years and my BH considers us reconciled. I never gave the OM or the sex any real estate in my brain. I have never thought back "fondly" about it and I never compared nor will I ever compare anyone to my BH. There is just simply no comparison.

So how does all of this excitement, thrill, and fantasy in affair sex ever dull out in comparison to married sex? Will married sex ever hold the title of best sex after such an experience?

I have been married for over 30 years. My M has had its struggles to the point of being toxic and we probably could have D each other several times over the years. But our sex life was always exciting and thrilling. (This was part of the reason neither one of us would D.)

We knew each other, we had certain tastes and no matter what was going on, we rocked each other's world. We even agreed that if we ever were to D, we would still be each other's booty call. Again, there is just no comparison to that.

In my opinion, the best sex is with the person who knows all of your flaws and loves you anyway. Who snuggles up against on a cold night to just feel your closeness. Who thinks you are beautiful with morning hair and breath. Who desires you no matter what size jeans you are wearing. Who understands you are not perfect and considers perfection boring. Who gets your sense of humor when nobody else does. I could go on and on. It just is not possible to have that kind of closeness, that kind of acceptance of each other in an A.

My BH and I have had several good discussions since D-day about our expectations, needs, wants and desires for our sex life. I had inhibitions that I was able to let go of and our bedroom time is the best it has ever been. We have not had the "best sex" of our lives, yet, but we enjoy and love to keep trying. A lot.

Jimmy,

As I said on the other thread that got locked, I never once considered my marriage innocent and pure, so no, I didn’t have a loss of those feelings after starting the A.

I also don’t believe there is any such thing as sexual immorality (though I used to, when I was younger). I do believe that there is dishonesty and broken promises involved. Yes, I was aware that I had forsaken my promise. But innocence and purity? Pffft.

I would love to hear responses from WHs about the "mind blowing" A sex tbh. Any wayward men out there that can weigh in on how amazing (or not) the A sex was?

My WH has said that on a scale of 1-10 it was a 5. It was exciting, dangerous, and new. But it was also left a scummy feeling.

Honestly, not sure that I totally believe that. I know it was an escape. I don't believe he will ever be completely honest with me about how the sex truly was...and that is so darn sad.

No, I never saw my relationship as a toilet bowl. Broken, bleeding, in need of excruciating therapy to heal injuries that I caused, but never a toilet bowl.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my question. I appreciate it a lot!

Shatteredvow, please do not answer questions for BS’s in this forum. It is strictly for WS to answer BS questions.

DevastatedOne

While I never had intercourse with my AP, she did perform oral on me. To be completely candid, she was very skilled at it. Initially I would have rated it the best I ever had. Over time, the novelty wore off as did “the best I ever had”. I suppose the added excitement of it is because it’s an act my wife refuses to do.

For what it’s worth, I can concur with your H sentiment about it being scummy. I always felt a little dirty after each encounter. Obviously not enough to stop for a very long time, but it was there.

Obviously I don’t know your husband and have no reason to lie to you but much of what he said rings true. I also know that all the blowjobs in the world weren’t worth it.

My WH told me repeatedly for 10 months that he wants to reconcile. He will do anything to stay married to me. I have been trying to figure out if I can trust him.

After finding some unexpected information tonight, I am now 99% certain that he has not told me the entire truth - he has left out significant pieces (for example, like 2 years of rub & tug with the same woman) - though he swore up and down that he told me everything.

His remorse has felt real. And, I am pretty sure he is not back with her...

Is he pretending that he was a better person than he actually was- is this self delusion or self protection?

I was so very clear, tell me everything or we are done - no more lies. This was foundation to trusting him.

Can anyone help me understand this behaviour?

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 7:38 AM, April 5th (Friday)]

Dup

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 2:09 AM, April 5th (Friday)]

ff4152-

Thank you.

My WH also took a deep dive bc the AP gave him blowjobs. Something that had dwindled in our sex life and something that he had convinced himself that I "wouldn't" do.

Oral sex, imo, by women is a power play. He told me how the AP, after their first encounter in response to his "I don't get that at home" said "your wife doesn't appreciate you."

I appreciate your honesty. It mirrors what my WH has said. Triggers abound but it helps me immensely to hear that no matter "how amazing" it was, it wasn't worth it.

Hi Tallgirl. I can't speak from TT perspective in my own case, but from what I know of lying and dishonesty, it's fear. Fear is the predominant reason people lie. Get caught skipping school - lie to avoid detention or grounding. Lie to cover up a mistake at work - fear of getting reprimanded or fired. Lie to your spouse after getting caught cheating - fear of losing them or fear of the unknown of divorce.

I will let you in on a secret from my own M. My BH has spent his entire life lying to avoid conflict. While we were engaged we were driving around one day in my car. I had heat on (cause I'm always cold) and he must have gotten too warm, so he reached over and turned the heat off. When I said I was still cold and really wanted the heat on, he told me that he didn't turn it off. I watched him do it! And it's such a small thing, right? But it was the fear of my getting angry with him that had him telling me he didn't do it.

I know this seems unrelated, but when you think about it, think of every time you or someone you know has lied, it is out of fear of some consequence.

Thank you Barregirl, the lie was omitting that he went to a massage parlour for five years while cruising online sites. This was before the 5 year affair.

I literally had to pull the truth from him.

I don’t understand the lying because we had talked about the everything else when it all came out 10 months ago with many follow up opportunities. My position was tell me now, I can’t tolerate anymore lying going forward.

This felt like being betrayed anew. Sure the behaviour hurt but the lying wiped out hope and any rebuilt trust. It hurts more.

I have been in limbo trying to decide. Although I did not want to admit it to myself I had some hope for our M. The cruel blow is the lie crushed the hope and any renewed trust.

We are trial separating, it is not what I wanted. This is his fear. Separating.

I am so sad.

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 7:01 AM, April 6th (Saturday)]

I'm so sorry Tallgirl. The fear can be all-encompassing and block out any semblance of good sense. I truly hope things work out for you.

think of every time you or someone you know has lied, it is out of fear of some consequence.

in my case many lies appeared to be from some kind of personality disorder. The lies were too crazy to be coming from fear. They weren't just "denial" lies, they were strange lies like having fake head on collisions.. He was just fucked up with no empathy or remorse... has to be something wacky in the brain......not sure I'd label that as fear.

I only post this response because it took a LONG time for me to recognize his sociopathy, and stop "feeling sorry" for him. So let's not all get out the kleenex for people in fear.. We empaths love to do so, but be aware that some waywards are just plain sick and we need to get away.

[This message edited by Starzen at 8:45 AM, April 6th (Saturday)]

We empaths love to do so, but be aware that some waywards are just plain sick and we need to get away.

I wouldn't argue with this at all. But in reading about Tallgirl's BH, other than the lie about massage parlors, he is exhibiting remorseful characteristics. I was merely providing a possible explanation for continued dishonesty.

Tallgirl,

For me, lying came as easy as breathing. Due to FOO, I learned early on to fear people's reactions if you did not tell them what they wanted to hear. Life could be better, at least for a little while, for me. Speaking the truth meant instant punishment that, let's just say, was not something a child should have to endure. I carried that lesson into adulthood.

My BH did not know why I would lie about things like, forgetting to make a phone call or paying a bill and I never told him until after D-day when I was in IC why it was so hard for me to speak the truth.

I learned in IC a exercise that I put into to practice, starting with the A questions my BH had. When he would ask me a question, I would pause, remind myself that it was ok to tell the truth and that I could handle any reaction that speaking the truth brought. Also, I would tell myself that I was not responsible for other people's reactions to the truth, I was only responsible for how I responded to their reactions. (It was a long pause.) My BH knew why I took a long pause before every question, so he was not thinking that I was trying to come up with a lie and that helped me. What I was doing was retraining my brain to learn that it was ok to speak the truth, with the hope that eventually, it would just come naturally.

For me, it was easier to be truthful about all the A stuff than about small everyday bullshit. So I went back to taking a pause before answering a question.

About a year and a half ago, we had went to bed, I was reading and my BH had fallen asleep. About an hour later, I got up to take the dogs out and to smoke a cigarette before I went to sleep. (My smoking had always been a "Don't ask, Don't tell" type of thing our entire M.) So when I came back in, my BH woke up and asked me what I was doing. I told him that I had taken the dogs out and for a split second, I wanted to leave it at that. But for some reason, my mouth opened up and out popped "and I smoked a cigarette." He already knew that I had smoked when I was outside, he was just waiting to see if I would be honest about it, which thankfully I was.

But he asked me why was it so hard for me to tell him because if he didn't D me after D-day, he was not going to D for smoking a cigarette.

Big turning point because when he said those words, something in my brain just clicked and I have not lied about anything since, not even by omission. I think it was my brain rewiring itself and realizing that my BH loved and accepted me, faults and all. I had finally got it.

I will say that while it seems like a simple concept to just tell the truth for most people, from my experience, it was anything but. For me, it wasn't that I didn't want to tell the truth but that I couldn't. That probably doesn't make any sense at all. But basically, lying was a survival instinct that I had to learn starting at the age of 5 and I struggled with letting it go. My BH made it possible by reminding me that he was my safe person with any and all truth and our home was a safe place to be open and honest.

None of this may pertain to your WH, so I am not sure how much any of this will be of help to you. I just know that you have to want to figure out what makes you lie and be willing to actually work to make the changes needed. It is possible or instead of being R, I would be D.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your insights. My head has been spinning. It’s clear he isn’t a safe partner.

He thought keeping this secret was protecting me from more pain.

I can’t understand this thinking.

I'd like to understand more how any WS here has been able to change their negative viewpoint of their BS (vilification) to a positive one? My fwh appeared to work on this after DD, but it surfaces every so often. Have any WS ever completely gotten rid of this BS vilification?

Do you remember a specific point when you started to feel remorse (a specific book passage, IC session, conversation with BS, etc.)? Or was it more gradual for you?

Devastatedone

I’m totally with your WH. The sex was about a 5 out of 10. Meh.

The illicit side was quite exciting. We got to sleuth around like kids. That feeling of youth was pretty intoxicating.

My BW was just as good, no, scratch that, better in bed that AP. I just rationalized that the new p**sy was somehow more enticing than the old p**sy.