SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you all for sharing your perspective and advice.

I didn't "move" as in a sort of plan, more as the last thing I can do to exit with some dignity.

@tushnurse, thank you.

You are absolutely right, and the approach you suggest is the only mature and effective way to deal with this problem.

We do have an unhealthy and toxic relationship and we cannot fix this from within this toxic environment.

Time to take this journey once and for all.

more as the last thing I can do to exit with some dignity.

I certainly hope that this 'move' is not a drastic action...

My advice is just to institute NC. That alone will allow you to exit with grace and dignity. No point tin investing any more energy/emotion to someone who is not worth it.

You guys need a long time period of NC to work on yourselves.

If you do talk to her keep it simple. Tell her reconciliation doesn’t begin with her coming clean and saying she wants to fix things. Tell her it only STARTS when she has done months or even years of work on herself to fix what is broken inside her.

Simple and honest.

And that life with you can never include her affair cheering friend or the AP. And that includes in her heart. If either of those people who helped her destroy her marriage are still in her life or even in her heart, and not seen as the destructive forces that they are, then there is no place for you in her life.

And finally, for a cheater, monitoring of devices must always be available if they are to build trust. Without complaint. If that’s not possible for her to live with, then she has no chance for a life with you. Surveillance should be an option that is willingly given to the betrayed partner. Otherwise trust is impossible.

Let her know that someday, if she can change her views and fix what’s broken in her, you’d be willing to discuss possibilities down the road. But for now it’s time you be apart and end the farce she has made of your current relationship.

Let her know during this time you’ll be in therapy yourself to work on your own shortcomings. And you hope she will be doing the same, but you can’t focus on her right now because of it.

Simple and honest.

Just from reading what you say, your marriage is not a beautiful ideal as you say in your first post. What I see is an emotionally unavailable guy with a needy woman with a mix of heavy alcohol abuse, infidelity abuse, drug use, with toxic fighting.

Just look at the last bit. She storms out in tears then alleges abuse because you don’t respond to her text.

Add to this mix is a supposed friend who she kept on fucking because she couldn’t stop. Yet he broke it off. Why? Because of her drama. Now she has a bruised ego and can’t stop ruminating about him.

Add an officious intermeddler friend that your wife is so attached to that she will threaten leaving you rather than give her up.

You are both emotionally destroyed and now she says she wants back in. And what bomb is she going to drop that she is so fearful about your reaction?

I suspect that those of us that are urging separation are pissing in the wind. I will say anyway that she is killing you by inches and if you let her back in you will deeply regret it.

You are both in need of professional help. You can’t make her get it, but you can help yourself. Do it.

ETA. Using psychedelics to deal with infidelity is not something anyone has ever recommended on this site. Everyone knows it can be deeply harmful in the wrong setting. Please think about this.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 9:44 AM, May 22nd (Saturday)]

How are you doing, alucard?

How’s the 180 going?

No one is perfect. I hope you know no one is expecting that of you,. Progress not perfection.

It is one baby step at a time. Keep posting, don’t walk away.

Hoping you have gotten a little space to work on you.

Hi everyone,

I had to take a long break to assess everything that was happening, the advice I got, my feelings, and that screaming inner truth that is so obfuscated from the whole situation.

The 180 went terribly.

It lasted a few days. I returned home after she was begging me to come back.

Shortly after, we started arguing again over my "controlling" while ignoring the underlying issues - her lack of transparency, this relationship with this toxic woman, her inability to fully own it without blaming me.

She left for a job for 20 days. A great time to have some clarity and experience solitude.

I've been reflecting a lot, and I have a clearer understanding of the situation:

1. she is mainly focused on my emotional and verbal abuse (I take my responsibility, I could have been a healthier partner). My question to myself is: how much is truth, and how much is she rewriting our history to justify her behavior?

2. She is still minimizing and blaming my abuse for the affair. She is still not owning it or ready to do the real work. I feel and see regret, but I don't know if I see true remorse and extreme empathy. We need to "move on, forget about it and try to be happy."

3. I've accepted her behavior because of the pain I've caused her in our marriage - again, I'm I being fed an exaggerated narrative? I don't know anymore

4. She is still not transparent with me - I don't know her phone code, social passwords etc

5. She is still obsessively friend with this horrible woman that has brought so much destruction in our lives. Se is either completely influenced/infatuated with this woman, or she is more similar to her that I want to admit and accept

I know she loves me, but I don't think she is truly capable of really understating the damage she has caused, the pain she has inflicted me, and whether she has the ability to do the inner work needed to heal herself and our marriage.

Perhaps it is my abuse; perhaps it is who she is. I've realized that this is out of my control.

Time apart and several conversations between us have shown me that I still want to fight for her. And she seems that she still wants to fight for me.

After some brilliant sessions with IC, I've decided to make her an offer: I've offered a vision for rebuilding a new marriage and a new future, based on truth, honesty heal, and growth (and much more practical goals), and I've asked to accept my lead in taking us there and surrender to the process. I've asked to take some time to truly think about it.

I also told her that there would be rules:(boundaries). She came back to me after two days, answering yes; she accepts the offer.

Tomorrow we will have to sit and talk.

My boundaries:

- Define healing not as "forget and move on" but address, uncover, reflect, learn, grow

- Radical truth on everything from now on

- Transparency with devices. No more secrets.

- She truly starts the work on herself, stops blaming, owns up. IC and whatever will help her address her behavior

- MC to explore a healthier way to address our issues

- She needs to cut the relationship with this woman

That's it. If she agrees, I'm ready to get out of the dark cloud and truly start the healing process and rebuilding our marriage.

Unfortunately, I know that she will never accept the device transparency ("surveillance is abuse"), and even less, she will NEVER accept to cut that woman out of her life. That's "her friend" and "controlling your wife's friendship is abusive."

She will never understand the massive impact that this woman had on our life. A woman with no meaningful relationships, lustful, gold digger, narcissist, sex addict, manipulative, shallow, entitled, spoiled, immature. A woman that invites her to meet men, sex parties, etc.

She does not see that, or she is not willing to so I will have to let go.

Perhaps she'll surprise me.

I've consulted a lawyer and I have a plan to leave this relationship gracefully.

It's immensely sad because even in the midst of this, we can experience deep love and connection.

Please tell me you aren't buying all of these claims of abuse against you.

You 100% need to have a VAR on you when you do this. She will claim abuse again as she knows it is your Achilles heel. You need proof it wasn't. Stay calm no yelling. No name calling. Just state your boundaries and requirements and when she goes nuts, walk away. Tell her she will he hearing from your attorney.

So she wants more privacy and for you to accept what she wants. Sounds like you don’t matter much.

Can you accept the unacceptable? If so why would you lower yourselves to those standards?

Repeats happen. This scenario you are describing seems like a high probability that you’ll get it again.

Why are you keeping yourself in this. She only has power over you if you give it to her.

Go your own way or suffer more needlessly.

What tush says, and ...

The fact that you may have hurt her with your 'abuse' in no way mitigates the pain she has caused you.

Your requirements seem reasonable.

And what tush says.

that's what I'm wrestling with.

Personally, I don't believe in control and surveillance, but her adamant denial of being more transparent is painful, upsetting, and a major red flag.

I should not have to ask or want/need to check, but she should offer openness and transparency.; and in between, we would have to create a balance and trust

Dude, get a VAR. I don't know how many times this has been said.

she is mainly focused on my emotional and verbal abuse (I take my responsibility, I could have been a healthier partner).

Hmm, haven't we addressed this issue of your "abuse" before? I've slept since then, but it seemed like at the time we sussed this out and it was essentially bullshit from your wife.

Look, for whatever reason, far too many wayward wives seem to fall back on this "emotional and verbal abuse" thing. When you drill down on it, it usually turns out to be "he said mean things to me because I wasn't faithful to him" or "he acted like a man during our marriage."

In other words, it's usually bullshit, at least in my own experience.

Stop getting played here.

I know she loves me, but I don't think she is truly capable of really understating the damage she has caused, the pain she has inflicted me, and whether she has the ability to do the inner work needed to heal herself and our marriage.

Hmmm, yeah, what you're describing is not really love from her. It's a self involved, self regarding person who wants what she wants and doesn't have empathy for you. That's not love, friend.

And she seems that she still wants to fight for me.

Really? You just got done telling us the complete opposite several sentences earlier. So which is it?

Still minimizing, still not transparent, still won't be truthful with you.

After some brilliant sessions with IC, I've decided to make her an offer: I've offered a vision for rebuilding a new marriage and a new future, based on truth, honesty heal, and growth (and much more practical goals), and I've asked to accept my lead in taking us there and surrender to the process. I've asked to take some time to truly think about it.

Why is this on you to propose? You're not the one who blew up the marriage!

What do you think laying this all out there one more time is really going to accomplish.

Same song, 1,000th verse.

Unfortunately, I know that she will never accept the device transparency ("surveillance is abuse"), and even less, she will NEVER accept to cut that woman out of her life. That's "her friend" and "controlling your wife's friendship is abusive."

There is NO RECONCILIATION. I don't know how to state this more plainly for you.

After infidelity, all expectations of 'privacy' are completely tossed on their head. You shouldn't trust her right now - she has proven that she isn't capable of honoring the trust you put in her.

As for whether or not you were abusive - only you can really unpack that and decide if you were. I will say though, that no matter what you did, it doesn't excuse her cheating. She had any number of options if she was unhappy in the marriage, none of which involve cheating.

I am sure you weren't perfect because no one ever is, and if there are areas you need to work on or improve then absolutely do so. Nothing wrong with personal growth and learning from your past. But don't make those changes "for" her. Make them for YOU.

@tush

I'll have the phone on record.

@thumos

I know. I keep waiting for her awakening. I see in her remorse. I see empathy. I see the connection, but she still refuses to fully own it up.

@sisoon

Thank you. I've been thinking about whether or not asking her to drop that friendship is "fair". For me of fucking course it is, but I also understand that I should not dictate friendships, that's not something I believe in it

@EllieKMAS

I've been bene emotionally unstable over the years. I recognize the pain I've caused her. I am working on musyelf and truly learning the lesson and growing

I keep waiting for her awakening. I see in her remorse. I see empathy. I see the connection, but she still refuses to fully own it up.

Gently, you're only seeing this because you want to see this. Not a single person here will agree with you because she's not acting remorseful. Regretful at best. If she had empathy, she would give you transparency and stop name calling you when you ask for it because she would understand why you would need to trust but verify with her for some time. That's the definition of empathy, is it not?

You need to look, really look, and accept the reality of who she is RIGHT THIS MINUTE. Not who she could be. Not who she is "deep down" because those people are whoever the hell you want them to be. And they're not the wife you have sitting in front of you punishing you for not rugsweeping and choosing to further cause you pain and distrust. Make decisions based on her actions - the ones currently demonstrating a LACK of remorse and empathy.

Right.

What I'm struggling with the most, more than the lack of transparency is the obsessive friendship with this toxic woman.

I've been telling her this for a while now but nothing. She continues this relationship.

Is it fair to make this relationship, and her rejecting my demand to end it a deal-breaker, or am I taking it too far?

What I'm struggling with the most, more than the lack of transparency is the obsessive friendship with this toxic woman.

Stop blaming yourself and others for her choices. Everyone is responsible for their own choices. Can't you see that she is the problem here? Even if that woman influences her, the problem is still her because she allows it.

Likewise, there is nothing we can do about being cheated on, but accepting it and continuing to endure it shows that we are the problem.

Is it fair to make this relationship, and her rejecting my demand to end it a deal-breaker, or am I taking it too far?

100% it is a deal breaker.

I knew a poster here years ago who was always trying to get his WW to get rid of her toxic friend because the friend knew about and encouraged the A. She wouldn't give her up and it lead to a new DDay when they were supposed to be in R where he let his WW go to a conference with toxic friend when really she met up with OM and toxic friend covered for her. Your WW's toxic friend will absolutely do the same for her.

What I'm struggling with the most, more than the lack of transparency is the obsessive friendship with this toxic woman.

I've been telling her this for a while now but nothing. She continues this relationship.

Is it fair to make this relationship, and her rejecting my demand to end it a deal-breaker, or am I taking it too far?

Underneath it all, what your request is about is building NEW TRUST. You need to know that your WW is willing to protect you from enemies, and what that woman did by encouraging your WW to cheat ended up hurting you. The same is true regarding transparency on her tech. Checking is healing. It's how the sausage gets made when it comes to building NEW TRUST. What your WW did destroyed the trust between you. What she's demanding now is that you simply go back to trusting her, regardless of the fact that she's not willing to prove herself and she's not willing to show you how she plans to remediate the poor character which allowed her to say "yes" to perfidy. Does that make sense to you??? ...of course not. That's why it feels so wrong, like you're getting gaslighted again.

Your WW needs to make up her mind about whether or not she wants R. If she does, she's going to be willing to prove herself by allowing CHECKING. Every time you check and you find nothing out of order, a drop goes in that big empty bucket. When she ditches the so-called friend who hurt you, a thousand drops go in that bucket. Rebuilding trust is a cumulative effort based on LOVING ACTIONS. Your WW sounds like she's motivated by pride, but it's not possible to be prideful -AND- remorseful at the same time. To be sorry for something we've done means that we have to dig deep for why we did it and to change whatever it was we found out about ourselves which let us down. Your marriage will not be reconciled without TRUST, and your WW isn't showing that she's willing to earn it. She might be holding her nose as to how the sausage is made, but her choice not to make it at all, means there will be no sausage. No sausage means no marriage, because WHY would you want to live the rest of your life with someone you can never trust?

We had our talk.

And like I thought, it was short.

She started accusing me of being toxic, abusive, controlling.

That requests of having transparency, and to cut that friendship are "sick". I am sick and need help. And I'm a liar because I read her private texts without her consent.

The affair is all my fault, she needed to look for love somewhere else because she was not getting it from me.

I've moved out already.

I'm hearth broken. My soul is bleeding