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Alucard.I understand the great love you have for this woman, it represents the best moments of your life and the empathy and union you felt in / for her that you don't want to lose, but this is definitely an opportunity to look inside yourself. She sure made bad choices, but surely something of this turmoil comes from you too. And it is above all on what you have to work on, regardless of his faults or how things will go. Nothing that happens has specific and totalitarian faults only on one side and sometimes even none, it must just happen and if it happens it must be evaluated for the teaching and the necessity it carries within. Clear that (speaking on the one hand more prosaic) at this moment she has her soul broken in two, on the one hand the story with you, which also for her represents the most beautiful things she has done and the most intense moments she has had, but also contradictions and relationship difficulties. On the other hand, the new, the hope of a better relationship, of being understood more and appreciated more (I try to speak from her head, I'm not saying this is the case ...) but also the doubt of not being able to recreate the same things and the fear of losing you, thus losing part of his own identity. I think you both have to evaluate the part that represents fear in you and the part that represents love ... Even if on the definition of the latter, we would have to open a separate symposium ... Hugs Alucard

[This message edited by maxfocs at 5:33 AM, July 1st (Thursday)]

Honestly, you seem all over the place, and not so much in R. I say this as someone who got stuck in a limbo of sorts, and had to walk away for my own mental health.

The current state of your marriage is not a healthy one for either of you. And this is because neither of you are personally in healthy positions.

Your W has a lot of work to do. She may not know what she wants, rather trying to do what is right, expected, etc. She is angry, and whether as the BS that makes no sense, or seems unfair, it is what it is. As long as she is angry, she will not be able to do any of the steps for R. Many WS's are so self absorbed in how the betrayal, by their own actions, has affected them, they can't get to the point of remorse, empathy, or even an ounce of compassion. They believe they are the victim. They tell themselves that they would not have strayed if not for their spouse being sick, working too much, having mental health issues, whatever excuse works. And so they are the victim of their own choices. It sounds ridiculous to the BS, but if this is where the WS is at after DDay, nothing will the WS does will move them past it. They will need to figure out why they permitted themselves to "respond" with an affair and betrayal. They could have done many other things. If the BS was the "reason" for the affair, the WS could have responded many ways other than an affair.

As the BS, healing and self care are essential. We are no good to the relationship when we wake riddled with anxiety over "what next?", "what if?", "she/he needs to", etc. I tried to demand certain things, but he wasn't ready. He suggested if he removed one women's number, blocked her, it wouldn't stop there. I would require all women blocked. In my mind, that seemed obvious, like "duh, you dumbshit, of course you block all women since you can't keep it in your pants!". But truth was, that was not going to really change things for me. I would then figure he would email, private message, get another phone, find alternative ways to communicate. I was never going to get peace of mind. Your situation sounds similar. I have since learned that I am likely a bit nuerotic. Which is a response to previous trauma, which I brought into the relationship as well. So, I have had to walk, work on me, set boundaries within all relationships. 6 years later, we are actually in R, and I am stronger. I have boundaries. I have my own life. And I have said, if at any point, I feel that this R is provoking my anxiety, pushing me to be neurotic, I see red flags, then I will remove myself. I have told him this as well. I have informed him cheating will not be tolerated, and if he does not feel he can handle that, then we are best to walk away from R.

Reading your posts, I feel like I have looked in a mirror of where I was. Determined I would make it work. I prayed and negotiated with God. I fought hard for the relationship. I looked for any and all pieces of hope. If he smiled right, hugged me on time, texted back within a certain time period, said the right thing, all these little crumbs he gave me, I held on with a tight grip, that this was worth it. Truth was, it was not. And I was doing more damage to both of us, but most importantly to myself. I was under valuing myself, and that gave him permission to as well. Think of it like this. We all love a great deal. We brag about how we got it. But it never matters to us as much as the item we work our butts off for.

Take a break. Walk away. Go no contact. If she goes off with someone else, she was never serious about R anyway. You are prolonging the process, and allowing the pain to grow deeper, when that seems impossible. From someone who was in the depths, deep in a pit after I walked away, I can tell you it was the best gift I ever gave myself.

I agree with Onestepforwarx, you need to go to NC to clear your head and really look inside yourself where you are and what you really want, not just in the relationship, but in your life in general

Thank you both.

I truly heard both of you.

We had another devasting fight last night.

I think the time has arrived to walk away, for both our mental health, hearts, and soul.

I love this woman more than anything on this world, and it's time to spare her, and me of all this suffering.

Our souls are broken and we can only heal separately.

I've been reflecting A LOT.

Everyone has told me to separate, to walk away, to create space.

Why I don't want to do that?

I give myself many excuses but the real reason si that I fear that If I leave, she will drift toward the OM.

Realizing and admitting this give some so much shame.

What kind of "love" is this that is based on possession and fear?

What kind of man have I become? I hold on to my W on the fear that deep down she wants to be somewhere else?

Is this an honorable and true life?

This is not how I wanted to live my life.

At the same time, she has shown me that she wants me and this marriage.

I'm extremely distressed. I spend my day paralyzed in a state of fear and tears.

I'm extremely distressed. I spend my day paralyzed in a state of fear and tears.

You have more control over that than what you might think, Alucard. This is WHY people are telling you to let go. You're holding onto this relationship as if it were the very definition of who you are. But you are MORE than just a husband. It's when you start investing in YOURSELF that you start feeling better. Right now, all your self-worth seems to be tied up in what this extremely faulty WS thinks about you. And you're making a choice to allow it.

YOU set the value on who you are. YOU determine your own identity. You see how that works? What your WW thinks or does or is does NOT define YOU.

This marriage might be recoverable or it might not. Either way, your life will go on. Either way, you will re-learn how to love and respect yourself. Either way, your life will have meaning and value.

Pick your chin up out of the dirt, man. Let go of the outcome and just work the problem in front of you, one thing at a time, each aspect as it presents itself. Your need for a specific outcome has you paralyzed. Let it go. Whatever happens, just trust that you did the best you knew how to do, and if the marriage can't be saved, it can't be saved. Sometimes it's for the best and we have to trust that the path before us is the sound one.

You're going to be okay. Really.

As I moved on, life threw many challenges my way Thru them, i learned that i was waiting on someone else to validate me, to provide me with love, safety, security. I believed a particular man could do this, and if he did, then I really did matter. When I intentionally started over, I provided myself with safety, security. When I eliminated the toxic person/people/relationship(s), I was able to focus on me. And I found self-love, which is more valuable than the love from any other being.

I promise you, when you walk away, it will hurt. You will feel despair like none ever felt. And then one day, you will find yourself. And you will love you more than ever imagined. Not in a narcissistic way. And you will define how others may or may not treat you. When we have so little self love and self respect, others only tend to love and respect us at the same or even lower level.

Everyone here is giving you honest and sincere advice. None have anything to gain from the decision you ultimately make. But all who have been betrayed, we have stood in your shoes. We get it. We know it is difficult. But you deserve more than the crumbs she feeds you when she "fears" losing you. She gives you enough to reel you back in when she fears you leaving. And if you really believe she would choose AP over respecting your need for space, rather than doing what is necessary to repair your M, I have to ask you to consider, are you staying in an effort for her to choose you? Pride? Take control, empower yourself. Let her pick up the pieces to fix what she broke. Go live your life. Find yourself again.

Alucard. Already the way you feel there is a signal that something is not healthy in this. Your fear that she goes to OM is already a symptom in itself that you look too little inside yourself and let yourself be guided by anger, fear, competition, pride, etc. You have to take your own path, life is telling you this and until you do it you will stay like this. Even after taking it you will be sick, but not for long and what is beyond it will be exactly what you are really looking for and you will find that you are and want. By the way, if there was a way for the two of you or still a destiny together, it's certainly only achievable by leaving now. "There is no other way than the night for the dawn" Kahlil Gibran

Hey AC,I've been following your post, and your situation does not sit well with me. Not in the sense of it being a shitshow, as it is, but in what I get from you. When I read your posts, it is as if I'm reading the posts of an abused spouse suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Your WW has had you on the ropes for so long that you automatically think you are the problem. She amplifies your shortcomings while minimizing or just erasing her own from the narrative, thus making you the villain. This could be why your gut is creaming at you to wake up and leave.

My guess is, and it's only a wild guess, that she has come from a toxic family where her learned behaviours were survival strategies. She is a chameleon, changing her attack vector mid battle, doing whatever is most beneficial for HER in THAT moment, not playing a long game, one if looking into a healthy future. It's like a fox that chews it's own leg off not realizing that they are still equally screwed.

It seems like you are a decent guy, needy for some reason and unable to find your inner hairy man just yet, but a decent person. You may want to explore why you are unwilling to get really angry and stand up for yourself. A good IC would help. Im a big bucket of FOO issues as anyone who has followed my posts can attest. I use to be very nonconfrontational, but the army changed that. Funny how learning to kill people and break things can cure one of worrying if what they say might make someone mad...now I am very assertive when I need to be. Mostly, I just do what's best for me.

I think your subconscious is screaming at you right now. It is built to keep you safe, listen to it.

As I moved on, life threw many challenges my way Thru them, i learned that i was waiting on someone else to validate me, to provide me with love, safety, security. I believed a particular man could do this, and if he did, then I really did matter. When I intentionally started over, I provided myself with safety, security. When I eliminated the toxic person/people/relationship(s), I was able to focus on me. And I found self-love, which is more valuable than the love from any other being.

I promise you, when you walk away, it will hurt. You will feel despair like none ever felt. And then one day, you will find yourself. And you will love you more than ever imagined. Not in a narcissistic way. And you will define how others may or may not treat you. When we have so little self love and self respect, others only tend to love and respect us at the same or even lower level.

Everyone here is giving you honest and sincere advice. None have anything to gain from the decision you ultimately make. But all who have been betrayed, we have stood in your shoes. We get it. We know it is difficult. But you deserve more than the crumbs she feeds you when she "fears" losing you. She gives you enough to reel you back in when she fears you leaving. And if you really believe she would choose AP over respecting your need for space, rather than doing what is necessary to repair your M, I have to ask you to consider, are you staying in an effort for her to choose you? Pride? Take control, empower yourself. Let her pick up the pieces to fix what she broke. Go live your life. Find yourself again.

Thank you for sharing your story. I understand what you mean.

I don't know if she would drift to the AP, but the thought already says a lot.

I'm taking some time to truly reflect and observe her behavior. But know that its time to shine the light on me, and found again my voice and my strenght.

Alucard. Already the way you feel there is a signal that something is not healthy in this. Your fear that she goes to OM is already a symptom in itself that you look too little inside yourself and let yourself be guided by anger, fear, competition, pride, etc. You have to take your own path, life is telling you this and until you do it you will stay like this. Even after taking it you will be sick, but not for long and what is beyond it will be exactly what you are really looking for and you will find that you are and want. By the way, if there was a way for the two of you or still a destiny together, it's certainly only achievable by leaving now. "There is no other way than the night for the dawn" Kahlil Gibran

I always find your perspective wise, profound and accurate to the situation. Thank you

Hey AC,I've been following your post, and your situation does not sit well with me. Not in the sense of it being a shitshow, as it is, but in what I get from you. When I read your posts, it is as if I'm reading the posts of an abused spouse suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Your WW has had you on the ropes for so long that you automatically think you are the problem. She amplifies your shortcomings while minimizing or just erasing her own from the narrative, thus making you the villain. This could be why your gut is creaming at you to wake up and leave.

My guess is, and it's only a wild guess, that she has come from a toxic family where her learned behaviours were survival strategies. She is a chameleon, changing her attack vector mid battle, doing whatever is most beneficial for HER in THAT moment, not playing a long game, one if looking into a healthy future. It's like a fox that chews it's own leg off not realizing that they are still equally screwed.

It seems like you are a decent guy, needy for some reason and unable to find your inner hairy man just yet, but a decent person. You may want to explore why you are unwilling to get really angry and stand up for yourself. A good IC would help. Im a big bucket of FOO issues as anyone who has followed my posts can attest. I use to be very nonconfrontational, but the army changed that. Funny how learning to kill people and break things can cure one of worrying if what they say might make someone mad...now I am very assertive when I need to be. Mostly, I just do what's best for me.

I think your subconscious is screaming at you right now. It is built to keep you safe, listen to it.

You have nailed the situation.

Yes, I feel in a sort of Stockholm syndrome.

Because of my temper and anger attack on her over the years (she did that too but whatever for now) I feel somehow that there's fault on my side, and I want to atone and try to heal together. I guess that's why I'm accepting more than I should.

she definitely comes from a very toxic family/mother.

I know I've not been able to channel my strong masculine; that's what I can't understand, and that's what has been incredibly disappointing. I'm ashamed of myself. I thought I was better. I fought all my life to live on my own terms, and when the moment came to be strong, I failed miserably. It's haunting and eating me alive.

And yes, my guts are SCREAMING.

[This message edited by alucard at 12:05 PM, July 2nd (Friday)]

Alucard ... Interesting this last thing you say, I see myself again ... I too, after years and years of India, Zen monasteries, Mexican shamans and an infinite number of journeys between 4 continents, I thought I had become strong, wise, detached from the excessive impulses of the material world or emotions linked to individualism or selfishness. Then when life put me to the test in this regard, I found myself small and mean and perhaps that was the real defeat. But I tell you that life does not deceive her by saying (for example) that you want to stay because you give yourself blame and you want to work with it on those too with her. Life follows other dynamics and where it has to take you, whining, stamping your feet, screaming, lying to your head, all things that will prove not only useless but harmful. Let yourself go to what is coming, behave in an IMPECCABLE way and you will see that what will be beyond will be bright, not even excluding the continuous unexpected for unpredictable ways of the relationship with her now, but even if it were not, the way must be taken for what it is, there will be no discounts. it's time to use what you've learned, which wasn't a game

[This message edited by maxfocs at 1:59 PM, July 2nd (Friday)]

@maxfocs

I hear you.

Me too I've walked the path. Expanded my consciousness with plant medicine and shamanistic practice. She joined me on the path many times.

I've absorbed Taoism and Buddhism, sat in circles, walked alone into the night. And yet, I found now to be weak and trembling.

I hear you. The only way is to behave from a place of honor and light.

I still believe in her. I still believe in us.

I've to start believing in myself

[This message edited by alucard at 3:14 PM, July 2nd (Friday)]

Hi Alucard, how is the situation?

In part, some forms of Buddhism are about non-attachment and destroying illusions.

You seem to be attached to an illusion. The illusion and attachment, of course, are of your own making....

I have not read your entire post but one thing that keeps showing up from the little I’ve read is your anger. Do you get angry in other situations or only in your marriage? If it’s only in your marriage then you are being played. It’s so hard to accept that the person we love can manipulate us into behaving the way we never do otherwise, but it happens. Please read Games People Play. It’s a book about mind games not fun ones

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 12:08 PM, July 5th (Monday)]

I give myself many excuses but the real reason si that I fear that If I leave, she will drift toward the OM.

The question of whether or not to attempt R is where most BS get stuck.. It's a risk to attempt to rebuild trust with someone who has betrayed you. In this respect, her drifting to the OM is a benefit not a catastrophe. If she does, R would with her would never have worked. Think of your separation as a quick test of her suitability to R.

Because of my temper and anger attack on her over the years (she did that too but whatever for now) I feel somehow that there's fault on my side, and I want to atone and try to heal together. I guess that's why I'm accepting more than I should.

Would it be ok for her to shoot you because you yelled at her? No one is perfect. We've all done things we shouldn't have. We could all have done better. That doesn't excuse the betrayal.

In part, some forms of Buddhism are about non-attachment and destroying illusions.

You seem to be attached to an illusion. The illusion and attachment, of course, are of your own making....

Absolutely agree. I'm aware that attachments lead to suffering

True healing, true liberation is only attenable by liberating yourself from attachments.

At the same time, for Buddhism "romantic love" is recommended because always leads to attachment.

I guess marriage is a sort of balancing act of attchment and letting go.

Cooley2here, grubs

I heard both of you. I'm constantly thinking about these aspects. Constantly.