SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is truly terrible to read.

As others have pointed out, you do need therapy, as does she.

You are barely mentioning your daughter, where is she in all of this? How do you think the behavior of you and your wife will affect her?

You are mixing all kinds of things, here some religion and morale, there some sexuality, a lot of self-pity and the desperate need for confirmation by people who don't know you (who have given you great advice you keep ignoring).

My suggestion: Work out, focus on your diet, get a hobby, spend time with your daughter, leave your wife alone, get a bloody divorce. Even the Bible says divorce is justified in cases of adultery. You sound obsessive also to me, I'll give you some advice from the times I was working for the police: This is exactly how domestic violence situations begin. You two are toxic together. You should separate.

I was, by the way, also with someone swearing on all things holy to me (not holy to her). As others have pointed out: It doesn't mean anything. She is just your average sociopath.

We all screw up when confronted with infidelity, try not to live in that past.

You are stuck and going around in circles here in this thread. Instead, you should react to the specific advice given here so you can make progress with each suggestion being given. Debate each one with us, ask questions. Right now you have been told a lot but you just keep asking for more advice. Let's mix it up on each possibility. Here are a few to discuss with us:, what is your reaction, push back or questions about each of these?

1) stop bagdering her on the past, go silent but install a VAR and a gps tracker.

2) tell her you don't want to badger her anymore. You want to reconcile but you are still haunted by the way she lied initially when asked about the guy in the car. So you want her to take a polygraph so you can put all this to restmonce qnd for all.

3) drop it all and move on with the marraige as s, getting more help from an IC and maybe emdr to put this behind you

4) tell her that she's right, D is the best option for the two of you and see a lawyer this week.

You're spiraling and you need help. Please, make it a top priority to get yourself some counseling.

I don't want to keep you in the spiral but it is possible actual intercourse didn't happen. Perhaps for one of them, that was the "line." If they didn't cross it then what they were doing wasn't that bad (in that twisted way waywards can think).

But does it matter? You describe a pretty abusive, shitty marriage when your wife is drunk. You know she cheated on you. You have zero trust in her. You know she lie right to your face and not even flinch.

If you stay in this marriage under those conditions you will continue to drive yourself absolutely mad.

Please find a therapist. Please, step away from this mess as often as you can and do something healthy and healing for yourself.

At least consider separating before this spiral and the shitstorm it is creating in your heart and home gets out of control and everything (including your daughter) is ruined.

Tell her that you need to reset your trust for her. And in order to start building trust, you need her to create a foundation from which it can grow. Then tell her that you have scheduled a polygraph for her.

Good luck

Falling,

Your story is painful to read, but there is a growing glimmer of hope in it, as it seems as though you are rounding a corner of sorts. The scales are falling from your eyes, and you are more clearly seeing your wife for who she is and has been. That is important.

Both in the past and even recently, you have gone about things in probably not the best way, but nobody here will be hard on you for it (except perhaps your continued insistence on not telling the other betrayed spouse). Your wife devastated your psyche with her actions, and in your devastated state you developed and continue to have some maladaptive behaviors. The whole rose situation is both nothing and everything, but the way you tried to trick and badger her into revealing something definitive was pretty doomed from the start and only going to lead to her lashing out and turning it on you.

The thing that gets me, and that I hope you are seeing more clearly, is the level of contempt, resentment, and disregard your wife has and continues to show you. The deeply hurtful things she's told you specifically to hurt you, the zero attempt at being understanding and working together to suss out problems. Why is she able to do this? Because she is very aware of the huge power imbalance in your relationship. She knows you are terrified at the prospect of divorce, which is why she can threaten it during arguments. She knows you want to see/remember only the best in her, which is why she can say cruel things to you and wipe it away with a "sorry" the next day. From the outside looking in, it is deeply troubling.

Whatever course you take, I hope you take back your agency and sense of self. The toxicity and dysfunction and power imbalance are crippling you. Wish you well.

I have been taking advice from the responses that I have received.
We actually went to marriage counseling. I was the one who initiated.
I got fed up and had enough after 5 months of meetings once a week.
About halfway through the meetings I requested to make the meetings 2 hours instead of 1. So about half of the total meetings were 2 hours and a few running over to 3 hours due to the nature of our discussion and the level of the argument we were having. We were getting nowhere with 1 hour. By the time we actually got to the subject and started to get some where the hour was over. This caused us to have to try to remember where we left off in the next meeting repeating the process from the week before. I did not like the way it went. The Counselor and I were not on the same line of thinking at all and I actually had heated discussions with her during many of our meetings. She would get mad at me for calling my wife a lier and refused to call her that. She said the way to put it we be for me to say my wife was being dishonest.
She would want to talk about different programs and techniques that would help us to heal our marriage. I told her the only way our marriage could ever heal is if my wife stops lieing and I can begin to trust her again. I got to where I believe my wife had her brain washed like so many others. So when it got to be the sos every meeting with 0 results I told them I was done wasting my time and a whole lot of money and I was done with the meetings. I still do not trust her. When I think back on our marriage and the times I have asked her things, I can not remember a single time that she has volunteered any information that would be damaging to her. She only admitted to what she knew I knew and never any further. Even until this day.
I am about done. I is going to drive me crazy if I don't get this resolved. I am thinking about the lie detector test as the last resort.

I wrote this to you a few weeks ago. How you are approaching this is not helping. How about try my recommendation instead. You can always go back to your method if mine doesn’t help. But I think it’s worth a shot if you want to try and actually save the marriage.

And if she doesn’t respond to it, then you know, you should move on… she’s not the one for you.

Here is what I wrote. I hope you will consider it.

FallingApart

I’m sorry you are here and in pain.

From my perspective I feel like you are focused too much on what you don’t know, and not what you do know.

It’s understandable. And also painful when you can’t trust your partner and what she says.

But I want to tell you that it’s enough just to know what she and he have told you they DID do in that car. It’s painful enough. IT’s marriage shattering enough.

So I’d like to ask you to maybe focus on that for a while, and not where the rose came from or if they went further in the car.

Her rose story is hers to live with at this point. You can assume it came from a cheating partner, or it came from a store give away. Maybe down the road you’ll find out. Maybe you won’t.

And maybe they went further in that car. Maybe they didn’t. But what they did was enough. Whether it was his fingers or member inside her, both are really bad. Jacking him off is bad enough. Intercourse would be bad too. But the possibility of her not having done that doesn’t get her off the hook one bit.

So instead, I’d ask you to focus for a bit on what you DO know to be true.

And as part of that, I’d ask you To be honest about it with her. Tell her how you feel about it in the context that you’re pausing your investigation mode to focus on what she has admitted to and how it has hurt you.

I’m sure you have told her something like this before, but if you haven’t gone to this extent, I urge you to this time.

Here’s the type of thing I would say. Customize as you see fit and if it doesn’t resonate with you, feel free to move on…

I’m going to stop focusing for a while on what I dont know. You are the only one who knows what is true or not. And you have to live with the fact that you are or are not telling the truth to the person you vowed to love honor cherish and protect. The dishonesty, cheating and shady behavior you have lived by up to now have made it impossible for you to be believed.

Between you and your therapist you can decide if you can handle holding on to what is true or not and if you feel if I deserve to know it or not.

But I want you to know, the things you have actually admitted are true, have already broken my heart. I so loved you. I had such great pride that you were my partner. But the things you have done and said have destroyed that feeling for me. You put on a great show to the world, but I know what you are capable of, and those things have slowly destroyed me from the inside.

I dont know that you care. When you get drunk, the things you say are so biting that they can never be forgotten. And the way you avoid trying to support my pain are no where near what they need to be in order to help me heal from it.

First and foremost I need to feel desire from you. I need to feel you truly do want me as your partner in life and that you crave being with me. I’m at a disadvantage being your husband. I don’t look like the shiny new thing walking down the street any more. You need to show me that you care enough that you don’t want to lose me, and more importantly, that I’m more than enough for you the rest of your life.

And that leads me to the next, you need to find a way to make me feel safe. That I can feel sure you are not gonna chase the next hard cock that walks by. That it’s mine you want and not his, or his or his. You need to figure out how to do that. You need to show me that you want to work hard to figure out a way to do that.

And lastly you need to show me you actually care about how you hurt me. How you made me feel less than every other guy out there. You consistently cheated on me before and after our wedding day. You are the person who has hurt me the most in this world. How can that be? You should be the one I turn to when I am in pain and not the one who pains me the most. I need to know that that fact hurts you more than it does me.

Either you show me that is the case or we should probably find a way to amicably end what I guess has been a charade of a relationship.

So I’m realizing what I do know is more damaging than what I don’t. The sad truth is if you would truly be honest with me about everything and then take to heart what I have asked for above, we might actually have a chance to build something new and maybe real and better. But honestly I dont believe you have it in you.

You have never valued me above those who treat you like shit and a piece of meat. That’s how you have made me feel…. Less than. I’m hoping you care enough to make that change. I won’t wait around very long to see if you can change my mind on that.

But I’m gonna stop banging my head against the wall on the questions of if his Dick was ever inside you or if he or another cheating partner gave you that rose. You can hold those secrets for yourself. I hope they keep you warm at night knowing that I don’t have the answers. But I’m relinquishing that pain to you. I dont deserve having to feel it any more. And it’s coming quite clear you don’t deserve me in the same way.

If you have something to say back, probably best you write it down. Our conversations are become way too difficult to be meaningful. I wish you well in deciding what you want for your life going forward. I’ll be here doing the same. "

I dont know if that helps any my friend. If it were me, I’d probably write it to her. Talking seems to be getting you no where.

I truly hope you can take a break from obsessing over the unanswered questions. As I said, what you do know is damning enough. Focus on yourself for a while. Say your piece, speak your truth, and then begin to move on until she show’s indication that she’s in it with you instead of against you.

I wish you well…

I hope the lie detector provides you with the information you need to fully heal but I doubt it will. Because your wife can pass the lie detector test AND you can wonder if it’s a false result (people have been known to pass even though they were lying).

To fully heal you need ACCEPTANCE. You accept what she told you, even if you KNOW it’s not the truth.

I will give you my personal example. My H had a 4 year EA. I knew from the moment I met this girl she was very very interested in my H. My H denied the EA. He lied. He stonewalled. He told me I was crazy blah blah blah. However it finally ended. Completely rug swept.

Fast forward to his second affair. I spoke to the OW and I made a comment and she told me that my H admitted to her that he had cheated on me with a girl (from a particular place). There is NO WAY the OW could have known about that unless my H told her.

Point is if my H admitted cheating it was more than an EA.

Now he refuses to admit it. He says it was only an EA. I told him I don’t believe him and I accept him for the coward he is and his refusal to admit what I know occurred.

I’ve healed. I’ve moved on. I don’t bring it up. I don’t really care. That’s on him to deal with and if he’s so worried I would D him over that then He really doesn’t get it.

And I’m over trying to make him "get it".

Yes I’m happy. Yes I have a good life. Yes I love him, flaws and all. But at the end of the day nothing will change if he admits it or not.

That is his character flaw. And I’m ok with that.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 2:56 PM, Saturday, July 22nd]

The1stWife: If he is still lying and denying, then doesn't that mean he hasn't changed much. He may or may not cheat again, but isn't his total lack of honesty and transparency an obstacle for a healthy marriage post dday? He is still trying to protect himself rather than helping you with his complete honesty.

Yes I’m happy. Yes, I have a good life. Yes, I love him, flaws and all. But at the end of the day, nothing will change if he admits it or not.

That is his character flaw. And I’m ok with that.

This totally goes against what we normally advise to BS and WS here. How can one be ok with their partner's character flaw that led to their betrayals? Don't we advise WS to address their flaws that led to their affairs to become safer partners??

But at the end of the day, nothing will change if he admits it or not.

May be this is the reason he will never come clean because he knows there are no consequences for not telling the truth.

I am kinda shocked reading your post.

Very excellent point. Except for that one thing he has changed and he is transparent, honest etc

It’s that one thing where I find it very very hard to believe it was not more than an EA. I could be wrong - it’s possible — but I am certain I am not wrong.

It really does t matter if it was an EA or PA - the point is he cheated and lied and knew it was wrong. He admitted as much about the 4 year EA. He just won’t say it’s more than an EA.

And I’m okay with that. That’s why I chose to just accept it and move on. It’s not worth arguing about.

Funny thing she emailed him a few years ago — and he never responded. He blocked her.

I put more stock in that than what happened 20 years ago, especially if he has changed and is no longer that arrogant jerk he was.

That was my point. I accepted - healed - moved on. Otherwise I would be fighting a never ending battle or we would be D.

I get what you are trying to achieve here, but I don't understand why he doesn't confess the truth or offer poly himself to prove he is not lying, and how can you be okay with it? I mean, you have accepted and digested two betrayals, so much lying, gaslighting, etc. So, he should know you can digest this truth, too. But, he is still lying even after 20 years. His second affair was 10 years after 1st one, right? So, in those ten years, were you in a similar belief that you have now that he has changed and your marriage is in a good place??

My intention with these questions is not to infuse paranoia or doubts about your husband in your head. I am genuinely confused and trying to wrap my head around why you said what you said in your earlier post, i.e., you being okay with him lying to you to this day.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 6:56 PM, Saturday, July 22nd]

Good question lurkingsoul.

First EA was in the 90s (before cell phones and stuff). It’s a long saga but since I have no actual proof — lucky him— I can only go on my gut. I believe there was a physical aspect to the affair.

He adamantly claims there was no physical aspect to that affair. There was a physical side to his last affair so it’s not really important (to me) if he wants to claim it was not physical in the first affair.

If he took a polygraph I would not believe it either. He is one of those people I think might be able to fool a polygraph lol.

The point is I can get hung up on the last and a sticking point OR accept the hand I’m dealt. If everything else is changed fir the better than (to me) this is not worth spending the rest of my life arguing about.

I have to accept the position he swears is the truth and I have let him know I do not believe it. I have no proof (as I said this was before cell phones and texts etc). He would do anything I ask to prove his point/position but as I said, I’m not interested.

I chose to ACCEPT the situation b/c nothing will change. Just like the OP here.

His wife is not helping him heal, and I’m not sure a polygraph will help in this case. If this is truly an issue he cannot resolve to his satisfaction— then maybe D is the answer.

To me, you can spend your life fighting over things or you can decide to move away from it. Toxic spouses, toxic relationships and work environments, can be resolved most often. You don’t have to stay married, you don’t have to talk/interact w/family members who are trouble and you often can change jobs.

I choose to stay married only if I am happy. Period.

I hope the OP understands my point. Just trying to show another option so you stop banging your head against the wall over your marriage. I was you for 3 years. 3 very unhappy years. I recognized I had to change or make decisions that out my happiness first. And it worked for me.

Maybe I’m selfish or wrong for doing so. But I can tell you I put him and the marriage first for 30 years. Lesson learned.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 7:05 PM, Saturday, July 22nd]

The1stWife: Well, I still don't understand this inconsistentency in his behavior, i.e., to lie on one thing and be honest about everything else. I am not going to push forward this discussion. Anyway, if it's working for you and you are truly happy, then may by your approach have worked for you, and I have to accept that.

His wife is not helping him heal, and I’m not sure a polygraph will help in this case. If this is truly an issue he cannot resolve to his satisfaction— then maybe D is the answer.

Totally agree with this. I, too, don't think poly is enough for OP. His wife needs to bring monumental and radical change in her overall personality to save this marriage which I am not seeing her doing.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 7:19 PM, Saturday, July 22nd]

FallingApart

My apologies for taking over your thread for a few posts.

I wanted to point out that my H (after his first affair) was like your wife. No remorse. No help. No support. No apology!!!

After his second affair and after I told him I was D him, he had an understanding I was not putting up with him and his cheating and lying another second.

He finally had remorse. He finally had some insight into what was happening and he very quickly realized he had to make some drastic changes. Which he did. Immediately.

He did everything he could to repair the damage. He wasn’t defensive. He would answer any and all questions a thousand times. He accepted blame for all of it.

That’s what helped me heal. That is what helped us truly reconcile and end up in a better marriage. I wish the same for you so you can truly heal.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:02 AM, Sunday, July 23rd]

Take a deep and let yourself relax. Now take another deep breath, and I want you to think back to the very beginning of your relationship with her. Were you the one that was more in love? It is so true that the person with the least to lose, is the one with the most power. Somehow your relationship became her, the top dog, and you not. Obviously your love for her overcame any thing else including common sense which, when you’re young, you barely have any of. Right now you’re trying to prove one way or the other whether she’s lying or she’s telling the truth. It’s driving you absolutely crazy. That is no way to live. Either you’re going to drive her away or are you going to leave but right now, you cannot sustain this. It’s going to do a terrible thing to your body because stress like this is cumulative and it will make your body break down.

Please let go of the idea that you can prove, or disprove, the rose story. You can’t. That’s the least of it anyway. I want you to look at your overall relationship through the years. A good marriage is reciprocal, you give, she gives. You take, she takes. The person who is kind, considerate, caring, trustworthy is often the person who is mistreated because they don’t have it in them to mistreat another. I don’t know what she has done with you, about you, or for you, and your marriage but you need to look way, way, way back and see how this relationship became what it is today because it started at the very beginning and it has become set in concrete. If you cannot settle this and get to the point that you can live a reasonably comfortable life then you need to make some fairly serious decisions. You can’t sustain this. It’s going to eat you alive.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 9:36 PM, Sunday, July 23rd]

I am going to post an update.
Everything is the same with my gut still telling me my wife is and has been lieing to me for a long time.
In yet another development, one in which I may be able get evidence of her having an affair.
You remember the red rose I dug out of the trash and my wife said a cashier at a grocery store gave it to her. Well I also collected paper towels that were placed in a small bag that were in the same area of the rose. Last week I started thinking about those paper towels.
I go to the hardware store and purchase a good quality UV Black Light. At dark I went outside and started to unfold each paper towel and checking each one with the light as I unfolded them. One by one I shined the light on each one with the light not showing any signs of stains. Then there were one last clump left that was kind of wadded up together. Checked the first one, nothing. Checked the 2nd one. Found one spot on it very bright glow about the size of a dime. 3rd one hand several big spots that glowed bright 4th one hand some smears on it that glowed.
I suspect it is semen. Like a clean up after sex is what the paper towels were used for. She threw them away the same time she threw the rose away and I found them both.
I have ordered a semen detection kit to test the spots found with the light.
What do you think?
What else could it be?
Should I send it in to a professional lab and have it tested or can I rely on the kit I have ordered for accurate results.
I am about to go nuts because it is like it never ends with things being revealed to me. It is just to much. If you read the entire post you will see that there is just to much that points to my wife having an affair. But I want the truth and see keeps telling me nothing is or has been going on. But it just keeps coming with her lies.
Please let me know what you think about the stains.
Thank you all

Saliva and snot would glow too. You can test it if you want but I think it's a stretch to say that it was used to clean up semen.

I have never seen her use a paper towel to blow her nose with and don't think she would use one to do it. Also there were three paper towels that had the stains show up in the light. If she did by chance use a paper towel to blow her nose with I don't think it would have taken three to do it also considering the amount of stains that was detected on them.
I think if she wiped her mouth with it the paper towel would have had something else on it like food or lipstick. The paper towels that had the stains on them looked clean with nothing on them. Just a white paper towel. They were however stuck together for being wadded up together.
I hope this makes sense to someone on my thinking. I really don't think I am over thinking considering I have thought about possible alternatives and feel like none of them are possible.

A semen-specific kit would distinguish between snot and not. But if you do this, and you should, don’t for a moment think your wife will then suddenly confess. She won’t. She will deny deny deny and say it’s yours. If you do this, only do it to (finally) convince yourself your WW is not who you’ve imagined her to be this entire time. She’s not your soul mate (at least not in her eyes). She’s just a common cheater. The sooner you come to grips with that, the better.

I can only reinforce what I, and many others, have said.

Hire a P.I.

Job done!