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I donít know where to put this.

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hikingout posted 11/9/2020 10:40 AM

I know it's healthy in one way. I am really not looking to spare him when I say I want to get it under control. I want to like myself and I try and do things that align myself with this goal. So, I need to figure out a good way to manage it and still be able respect my choices. Whether that is time away from him or something else is not clear.

I have worked too hard to be someone I am proud of then to act out the way I have. We are on some sort of Fight and Fuck schedule, I have to get off that train.

BraveSirRobin posted 11/9/2020 11:19 AM

My H did want to spare me, partly because he still loved me and partly because he got better information out of me when I wasn't being defensive. But the big reason was what you describe. He was damned if he'd allow my bad choices to warp him into a person he didn't want to be.

MIgander posted 11/9/2020 11:22 AM

Maybe stop fucking and keep fighting?

Sex was a bandaid I used too often in our marriage. Just builds resentment after a while.

Don't know what else to say, we're in a different spot and I'm not that far along.

My IC did give me a lot of good advice on expressing my hurt/pain/anger with my husband. State it firmly, don't make excuses for them, don't call them names. Don't let them tell you you can't feel the way you feel. You are allowed your feelings, don't let them to demean or minimize them. If you feel overwhelmed, put a pause in the conversation, calm yourself down and then reengage. If there was a genuine misunderstanding that led to the hurt feelings, address that and move on.

My son has my inattentive/emotional dysreg ADHD type too and I've found telling him to take his time as it's his time to take give him the power to put himself in a timeout and calm himself down. He's gaining more self respect using this technique and it's beautiful to watch.

Good luck.

hikingout posted 11/9/2020 11:34 AM

My H did want to spare me, partly because he still loved me and partly because he got better information out of me when I wasn't being defensive. But the big reason was what you describe. He was damned if he'd allow my bad choices to warp him into a person he didn't want to be.

And, that's a good reminder too. I said I am not going to contribute to our failures, and I do still love him.

Maybe stop fucking and keep fighting?

Yep, that's what I promise myself every single time. Unfortunately I think I am seeking every distraction known to man at this point. Fighting about politics with strangers, HB, commenting on threads here that are not relevant, etc.

This0is0Fine posted 11/9/2020 11:51 AM

The fucking in the fight/fuck cycle is pretty great. Not unlike HB. It definitely clouds judgement.

It took me 11 months to actually take a real break and be away from my WW for a few actual real days of NC with her. It has been really good. That said, you are so close to DDay I know that time away can be extremely painful and anxiety inducing (is he seeing AP right now!?).

I don't have much advice on how to best clear your mind, understand your feelings, and not give in to the constant anxiety. Maybe stay in limbo for a while until you are (un)comfortable enough to take the time you need. I can't say I love the path I've taken, but you have to do what feels best for you.

crazyblindsided posted 11/9/2020 12:02 PM

We are on some sort of Fight and Fuck schedule

This sounds like Hysterical Bonding, it will die down.

hikingout posted 11/9/2020 12:24 PM

We had HB twice after my A. In the early time (like now) and after he decided not to go through with the divorce, that lasted, well probably until his affair. so a good 7 or 8 months.

We didn't have the fight/fuck thing then. And I am using the F word because that's exactly what it is. HB ran the gambit before, it was emotional but not angry. This is a completely different animal. Maybe because I am mad, and I don't really care what he gets out of it.

RosesandThorns posted 11/9/2020 12:59 PM

Well, I can see how HB would be different from the perspective of the BS instead of the WS this time.

I'm impressed that you already went through with the polygraph. Removing the apparition of possible additional D-days for both can only be a positive thing when it comes to rebuilding. Nothing can make you want to give up when you're weary than the thought that there could be more trickle truth ahead. Maybe it will help allow him to be more vulnerable emotionally, down the road.

You're making good steps, talking to your IC, telling a friend, polygraph. You're still going to have to ride the coaster, but that's normal. I sure don't see you staying stuck or spinning your wheels, HO, no matter what your husband chooses to do going forward.

Thissucks5678 posted 11/9/2020 13:14 PM

I despised my WH after dday and I despised myself for still loving him. I couldnít understand it. There were so many conflicting feelings. I used him for sex, I was a person I still donít recognize. I was so hateful. It really rocked me more than anything in my entire life.

Itís totally normal what you are going through. I hope you recover quicker than I did. It was a long road to recovery for me. Just to give you some positive to look forward to - I think I am an emotionally healthier person now than I was pre-dday. I have boundaries, it sounds silly, but I use my words, there are no silly games. I am who I am and if my WH doesnít accept me, he can go. I am no longer so attached. I am so much more secure in myself. It is such a better place to be.

sisoon posted 11/9/2020 13:17 PM

...I have to get off that train.
Well, yeah - but maybe that part of the journey isn't over yet. Your core self may be on a different schedule than you think you should be on.

One of the things BSes do is to have sex primarily for themselves. Lots of that sex is rooted, at least in part, in anger. It can take months to stop the angry sex. IIRC, it took me well into year 2 - and the way I stopped the angry sex was 1) realizing I was angry, and 2) deciding to stop angry sex. That meant stopping in the middle of an event. Very strange.

What are you doing about your 'shoulds'? Keeping a list might help bring them out - but the purpose of knowing your 'shoulds' is to consciously choose which you'll obey.

No violence is a good should, but anything that puts unnecessary (I think that's the word I want) constraints on what you can and can't do WRT healing ...um... should be put to the side and ignored.

hikingout posted 11/9/2020 13:34 PM


I was on the poly train early, yep. Because I was not going to waste my time if I found out he had been cheating our entire marriage. I know myself, I wasn't going to even be able to consider R in all that especially with all that happened after my A. I want to move forward with him but I am self-protective by nature. I had to know. I couldn't put the first block in of rebuilding anything without the answer.

Thissucks - I can see how that would be. I am considering all the ways I wasn't equal or the things I let pass me by so I could be present in our marriage. This really makes you see things in a very different way. I had started practicing boundaries as part of my WS work, and I can see now that I was still kind of wavering on some things.

Sisoon - nope, not violent. But, throwing huge fits, name calling, screaming and throwing things. Then I just feel bad and guilty. I am trying to not do things that add to my guilt and shame. I don't want to suppress my feelings but I would like to manage them better. Also I know it shouldn't but it makes me feel like a giant hypocrite. I am at odds with myself at many angles. And, then sometimes, mostly when he isn't around, I am okay.

I am less concerned with the sex really, it's just really weird to have it angry. I don't think I have ever experienced that because historically when I was angry or not connected to him, or things haven't gone well between us on that day, sex was the last thing I wanted. But, it is very confusing. As a WS, I wanted the HB it was almost proof of a connection or that things might get better. As a BS I think it indicates nothing other than letting my mind go for a few minutes. It's just different.

Followtheriver posted 11/10/2020 17:48 PM


Well Hells Bells HO. I am so sorry that you having to face this. I haven't been around lately and just saw this.

You have done the work, you've fixed what you had to and changed what you needed to. So there is no doubt in my mind that you will figure out the best and healthiest way for you in dealing with all of this.

This is where everything you've learned and all the work you've done, will help you every step of the way. While I know it's easier said than done, just trust and believe in yourself to find the right path, but when doubt starts creeping in, remind yourself how strong you are. Then remind yourself that after getting through all of this, you are going to be even stronger because River said so and that bad ass bitch knows what she's talking about. (Thought I'd add that last part to make you smile:)

While I haven't read this entire thread yet, I wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you. I have never forgotten how you were there for me, so if and when you need me, I'll be here.

MrsWalloped posted 11/11/2020 05:56 AM

Also I know it shouldn't but it makes me feel like a giant hypocrite.

I understand why you might feel that way, but I never understood why being a hypocrite is always thrown around like itís a bad thing. If something is wrong to do, then the fact that you did it doesnít make it okay for everyone else. It was wrong for you and wrong for them. Maybe now they can say that you donít have a right to complain or be upset. I donít know. I would think that we did this and knew it was wrong. We may have given ourselves permission to cheat, but we didnít all of a sudden say there was nothing wrong with it. And even if we had and thought it was okay because of whatever reasons, obviously that was screwed up WS thinking. One of the whole points of working so hard since then is to change that mindset and the way we think. And if weíve grown then knowing and articulating how wrong it is should be not just accepted but also expected.

You are allowed to feel the way a BS should feel with all of the pain and hurt and anger and sorrow that comes with it despite your past. You are a different you and this HO knows and understands that there is nothing okay about cheating and there is never a reason that makes it okay. You are allowed to grieve. You shouldnít feel guilty for that.

maise posted 11/11/2020 07:45 AM

You are allowed to feel the way a BS should feel with all of the pain and hurt and anger and sorrow that comes with it despite your past. You are a different you and this HO knows and understands that there is nothing okay about cheating and there is never a reason that makes it okay. You are allowed to grieve. You shouldnít feel guilty for that.

Agreed. Youíve got to let go of the guilt from your past and allow yourself to feel. You did everything you could to redeem yourself after the pain you caused. Tethering your past betrayal to his is not fair to you, nor is it kind to you. Abuse does not negate abuse.

If you had two children and one of them hit the other, then felt bad and apologized and didnít do it again - it would not be ok for the other child to then hit child A and say, ďbut child A hit me in the past so I was allowed to do it, and they shouldnít get to say it hurt.Ē

When I was reeling in the emotions after Dday, I became physically abusive toward my WS. She used to tell me it was ok because she deserved it after what sheíd done. I could have told myself the same thing right? She deserves everything coming to her from me. But hitting her made me feel like shit about myself. I was becoming an abuser. I didnít like myself in that light, and nothing she ever did would or could excuse the fact that I was now an abuser. All it did was compile guilt on top of my pain, and made me question what I had become. Now weíre just two people letting ourselves down, and abusing one another. None of that is ok. None of that made our pain lessen.

She was ok with allowing for me to become the worst version of myself, and she was ok with abandoning her own self-worth and care for herself as she was being abused. Relationships are supposed to be about uplifting and supporting each other in being the best versions of ourselves. Someone saying itís ok to be horrible now bc Iím horrible and was horrible to you is just so fucked up. What a toxic shit cycle. Someone had to break it.

Anyway, I may have gone in a little bit of a different direction there with my last example. But itís still some food for thought in giving you different angles of viewing this guilt youíre feeling.

hikingout posted 11/11/2020 08:43 AM

I know this logically. I don't know how to get my emotions to get on that page. The guilt and shame and blaming myself is something that is going to take a while to burn off. I talked a lot to my IC about that on Monday. I will go off and then think about how he didn't do that to me, and then I get more frustrated and act meaner.

I am getting a handle at least on that. I actually think he finds it scarier when I am communicating to him in my calm voice. Maybe easier for him to dismiss some of the other stuff as emotional swings. When I talk in my calm voice he can't be as sure how serious or set in stone I am on what I am saying.

It's just going to be up and down right now, but I am at least trying to find a way to be healthy. It's like you said, Maise, I don't want to add some sort of other abuse or issue on top of everything else. I have already pledged that I am not going to do things that sets me or us up for failure. Ask me in another hour.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:51 AM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

gmc94 posted 11/11/2020 10:00 AM

Ask me in another hour.
Oh HO, I (and suspect most/all BS) so totally "get" this. I remember those days and am so sorry you are experiencing it from the BS perspective.

sisoon posted 11/11/2020 12:36 PM

My standard suggestion, which I took from several therapists:

Stop calling him names.

Start saying, 'I'm angry/sad/ scared/ashamed about ____.' And if you show the emotion, so much the better. Saying, 'I'm furious that you did ____' only helps you if you show your fury with non-verbals that also say 'furious.'

Onlyjan posted 11/14/2020 22:53 PM

Hiking Out ó Iím terribly sorry you are in this position. It is so painful. You are in the shock phase right now and may be vacillating between numbness, horror and pain. The true pain and anger are still to come, unfortunately, IMHO. I havenít read through all the responses (there are 21 pages) but I can say I do sympathize with you given you have worked so hard to fix your marriage, and youíve offered many of us advice. Unlike some of the other posters, however, I disagree that your infidelity did not make him vulnerable to cheating. I certainly think it highly likely he was so broken and hurt (he wanted a divorce) and his self-esteem was decimated, and the attentions of someone who truly wanted him, when his wife chose another, made him prone to straying. There are so many painful emotions. Itís been three years and Iím not totally sorted, and STILL fight the temptation of seeking revenge or having my self-esteem bolstered by support from an attractive person of the opposite sex. I was actually headed in that direction myself just last month, and had to actively stop myself, and it was hard. I donít want to do something I deplore. But had temptation come my way two years earlier, I might have thrown myself wholeheartedly into the escape. The pain the newly betrayed feels is so all-consuming. Which, unfortunately, you are learning. Iím not saying your husbandís choices were right (and the length and breadth of lying involved must be staggering). Iím just saying I donít think youíre wrong when you say your affair had something to do with his. If the bonds hadnít been so severely broken and damaged, If he hadnít been so brutally hurt, I think it is far less likely he would have had an affair. People can tell me Iím wrong, of course. But speaking as a BS, I know how tempting it can be to seek admiration and support from someone from the opposite sec, when your spouse has shown you, through their actions, that you were not enough for them, and not worth being respected or treasured. When you feel youíve lost that ďspecialnessĒ, part of your brain just thinks ó ďwhat the fuck.Ē Still, I am truly sorry for your heartache. I know youíve tried so hard to fix things. People make mistakes, and I believe you learned from yours. But I can see how it could have been the undoing of the entire marriage. Ii truly donít see how a marriage can ever be as good or as strong after an affair. Thereís just always something missing. And I sit here day after day wondering if Life would be better with a clean slate. Iím sure these are thoughts going through your mind lnow, much as they did your spouseís after Dday. I still hope you can find some peace and healing. Iím very sorry you are in this position as well.

Tentwinkletoes posted 11/16/2020 03:16 AM

Hiking Out I saw one reply elsewhere mentioning these events and I was in shock I had to track down the thread and read the latest developments as I haven't been on here for some time.

Firstly I wanted to invest some time into your story because I've always appreciated your comments and time you've given others here. Your insight has really helped me,and I'm sure others.

Secondly. I am so sorry there has been a turn of events which results in you being the BS now. Despite you owning some guilt and responsibility for your affair, I can see you feel this was part of the catalyst for your husbands affair, you still have genuine hurt and betrayal to work through. Even if your actions helped the situation come to be it doesn't negate or discredit the pain you will be experiencing. So I would be careful not to avoid your pain by accepting it as your fault. Because we know his response and coping mechanism is entirely on him.

I think hes very lucky to have the grace and openess you're offering him. The AP sounds like a car crash. And to fall for that nonsense with his awareness and exposure really does question his intelligence! But equally we appreciate theres alot more to it than that. But I suspect you have alot more anger to uncover. Along with hurt and upset. But its so important to make him accountable and now over own your part. You may have been a catalyst but his actions were entirely a weakness and fault in his mindset and perception.

I can see real strength and resilience in your posts where you spot old habits and coping mechanisms and planning to tackle them. So the past few years has been very much about your growth. Your progress. That cant be taken away and it shows it hasn't been in vain. Sadly your husband hoped along for the ride without his own personal investment and growth and fell into wayward thinking and behaviour and inexcusably found some way to justify it. Now its his turn for the full upheaval. He needs to do all the work you did. It won't be easy but its all on his head. I fear already there is a disconnect between what's his and whats your fault. Your wrong doing really doesn't omit his. And I think if you don't uphold that he will pay lip service to doing the work while believing he is above it and not fully to blame and entitled in someway which will lead to resentment on your behalf and possibly repeat behaviour on his.

I hope his sorry ass does the work.

Im so sorry again

hikingout posted 11/17/2020 09:32 AM

Thank you tentwinkle and onlyjan. I haven't been on much in the last several days and had missed the additional responses.

I think where I land with it is where TTT says. I get that the affair put him in a low place but his choices are still his responsibility to deal with.
I have expressed in other places that it's difficult sometimes to be fully in the BS role because some of that humility still needs to be there on what I did to him. He obviously has not healed as the BS yet, and I have to be mindful of that part as well. But, I do know what the work looks like, and I do not trust what he is telling me. It will take a lot for me to believe he wants to be in this marriage, even if a big part of the reason is that I cheated on him. So, there are places where this intersects.

onlyjan = I don't think anyone disagrees that my affair was what he was in agony over. It's just he did have other options. Just like when I was in agony I also had other options.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks. I am reading. Sometimes I have more to say, and other times I am really at a loss of what I would even want to say. Right now I am in the latter part of that pattern.

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