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I donít know where to put this.

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pinkpggy posted 10/19/2020 12:32 PM

HO- The other issue is the time he has spent here reading. At our DDAYs we had no knowledge base of what a WS was supposed to do or say. Our reactions, responses, and emotions were authentic. I would worry that he is giving you what he thinks is the required response base on the years of him reading here. It would be very hard to separate what is authentic and what is fake. I don't know how you you can put a plan to heal in place when it almost feels like he is so many steps ahead of you as a WS. Its a very slippery slope to even begin to heal, when that's what you thought you had been doing the past 3 years it adds a whole other layer of deception.

HellFire posted 10/19/2020 12:37 PM

I would worry that he is giving you what he thinks is the required response base on the years of him reading here. It would be very hard to separate what is authentic and what is fake.

This is exactly why new BS are told not to share this site with their WS.

hikingout posted 10/19/2020 12:47 PM

HO, did he ever say to you, when reflecting on your betrayals, that because of it, he did not have a sense of accountability or responsibility for loyalty to you or the M? Did he ever intimate or suggest that because of the broken vows from your M, that he felt no obligation to those vows, as a result? Just curious if there were any verbal clues to potential future behaviors by him.

No. He is not taking it in that direction. He knows he mislead me. He knew at 10 months I was giving him the divorce with the terms he wanted on a silver platter, he could have followed through. Oddly, I am not sorry he didn't. I don't yet feel like everything has been a waste.

He is saying that for the last six months he just wanted to take it back and make her go away. There is consistency in that and what she was saying in the texts while he was driving. He claims to be very clear about what it is he wants. I just keep telling him time will tell me the truth about that so not to bother to lie and end up wasting more of our time. If he wants out, he can get out, I have made that clear. He just isn't getting the terms I originally said he could have. I burned the papers last night, we will have to start over if one of us decides to file. (I went a little nuts after talking to the OBS, that was worse maybe than finding out. Luckily I didn't burn anything else)

HO, I did the same thing in expecting my ex to handle the fallout just as I did. And well you know how that worked out. It was maddening for me because I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that he couldn't give me what I gave him. I couldn't separate it, but let me say this, I didn't stand for less either. I wasn't expecting him to match it 100 percent but he needed to come close. Why? Because it is what every BS should receive.

I don't feel strong on a lot of things because I just really can't believe it half the time. But, him doing work is something I am comfortable with requiring and feel secure in. That aspect doesn't interfere with that piece of me that feels compassion for myself? I can
and do have compassion for someone who did something I did. I truly think I would have to question my own if it was not that way.

But, I can honestly say I have done everything I could in the aftermath. If he doesn't, then I think I can separate that compassion at that point. I don't know though, the next minute I just want it to go away and us be normal. I can sound very rational while I am typing this, but I have probably 12 personalities right now and they all argue with each other.

He told you (and us, for that matter) that he'd walk if you ever cheated or lied again, that he'd never stay through the aftermath of betrayal, that he was only in R because you'd learned the full toxicity of deceit. He wrote all that while actively cheating on you.

There is a duality here. My husband's coping mechanism has always been his stoic nature. I know that there is deceit there coming from someone who was doing the same thing. But, I think he had a self-loathing over that as well. Some of what he wrote I think was in conflict with himself.

And, I do think that when people compartmentalize, their authenticity goes in two different directions. I think much of what happened between us or what he wrote was authentic to him at the time. I think some of the progress we made as a couple was authentic. There are certain things you can't fake. We communicate better for example. However, it's hard to sort because a different example would be I have seen him try harder and compromise more. That one is tainted because I don't know if that was his heart or his guilt?

I can't tell you what I need, but thanks for asking. I know that writing helps me sort, and so I do that. I did it all this time to help me with myself. I am appreciative most that people identify with what I am saying with their own experience. That is very grounding to me.

My wife chose to have this experience with a faithful husband at home and an intact M. I did not have those circumstances in place when I chose to cheat. Neither did your H. I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm trying to save you from some misery. You're in for a rude awakening to think that you can discuss this without hearing about your transgression.

I never have said any of that. I have said that I know my affair precipitated his. That doesn't mean to me that I take the blame for his. But, I do think I have a different responsibility in some ways to him that he didn't have to me.

That to me doesn't mean I can't divorce him if I ultimately decided that for some reason. It doesn't mean he doesn't have to work on himself and get to a healthy place. It simply means that I can't come out of the gate with no compassion like this happened in the vacuum like it did when I had an affair.

My "added responsibility" to him is simply to not pretend that I don't understand. To at least come out of the gate with some compassion and give him some room to make it right. However, I will make it very clear to him, to you, or to anyone else - that's all I am giving him.

I also think I agree with keeping it separate. The only thing my affair has to do with his is it was the fuel. He still made the decisions. I brought up my affair all the time, he was given every opportunity to say anything he wanted at any time. He was given a killer divorce deal that he could have cashed in on at any time. He doesn't get a complete out on this, I am sorry.

But, I am going to give him ample opportunity to succeed, if ultimately that is what he wants to do. That's the part I do not trust right now. That he knows what he wants, or that he wants it for the right reasons. That's why I have to stay removed from it in some ways. What you have to understand is, yes, I broke his trust, and I broke our marriage first. BUT, he has now broken my trust which was intact before this all came to light. He broke his integrity too. He has to recover from that and heal, plus do all the healing he apparently didn't do to begin with. You can't just keep putting this all on me, Buck. I am not being rude or evil with him, I am not even angry with him yet. I am just sad - for both of us.

Bigger - I understand what you are telling me. I know you are right. I think this is going to be something to keep in mind moving forward, but I don't even know when that assessment can even begin. I want to be married to him as much as I wanted to be married to him a month ago. I feel like I learned a lot of how to be married through my journey and I really liked where we were with things. I can't think much past that at this point? All I can do is watch and wait.

Thank you Maise. You are right.

I guess that is where you were stuck. you H didn't deal with his post D-Day issues and only put on a front and got in over his head before he knew it. Maybe your H was done with the A and looking for an out and worried about the 'rabbit' (I was in the boat for a few months) but he sounds to be doing what I did for the months before D-Day and not accepting that there are issues with himself that need tending. I knew I needed help as things were not right, but I wasn't really accepting of my faults at the time.

Rings true. I think "over his head" is very much the way I am seeing it right now.

As a lot of waywards here who have done the work I think you will understand how painful it can be getting to that realization. It may be your H is not admitting all yet, because he hasn't taken the time to look in the mirror. I know I didn't realize the depths of what I did for some time after D-Day.

Me either. I know I am going to get a lot of scratch the surface stuff. In some ways I have it easier than he did - I was very limerant/foggy, and said all sorts of stupid shit. He is sparing me all that. In some ways I keep waiting for him to just say "I was wrong, I don't think I can get past this". I can't help but think that would be a relief despite my wishes to move forward.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:17 PM, October 19th (Monday)]

hikingout posted 10/19/2020 13:11 PM

I donít know, you say you know your husband. I know my WH was a stranger to me after dday. I discovered I didnít know him at all. It didnít matter that I had been with him the majority of my adult life - he was a complete and total stranger. I have since learned so much, but everything I thought I knew was false. Just a thought. I wish you nothing but the absolute best in this process
.

I know, it's weird. He did break my trust. I don't trust him that he knows what he wants or is close to even figuring that out. I never in a million years would have believed he would do this. But, unlike a BS, I don't really feel like this happened in a vacuum. I also have been in his mindset. I understand the duality differently because I experienced it. So, where you may have felt like your husband was a stranger may be somewhat different for me because I know that for a wayward we feel authentic in the moment that is in front of us. There is typically no real plan, it's a series of reactions. I may turn out to feel different any time now, who knows.

I do feel like I know him, but that's not the same as trusting him. But my lack of trust is more based on I thought we were getting better and we weren't. I don't know if I can trust him to assess the situation and himself and make real decisions. It's going to take a long time, if ever, for me to believe that he has an understanding of himself and his emotions. I don't want to be his wife just because of our girls, or because he feels it's better financially, or whatever else there is. But, at the same time I know when I started down the path of R, my reasons evolved as did my clarity.

I will get more details, I have some already. I have a a basic outline sketch of the whole thing. I have to decide what parts I want colored in more. He keeps trying to go into those spaces, but I don't really want to right now. For whatever reason, to me their situation is both one dimensional and moronic to the highest level.

Its a very slippery slope to even begin to heal, when that's what you thought you had been doing the past 3 years it adds a whole other layer of deception.

I did heal a lot in those 3 years. That was real, and just because the marriage hasn't come as far as I thought doesn't take that away. I do agree it's hard to trust anything right now so it will be a longer road now.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:36 PM, October 19th (Monday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 10/19/2020 13:35 PM

I don't know if I can trust him to assess the situation and himself and make real decisions. It's going to take a long time, if ever, for me to believe that he has an understanding of himself and his emotions.
Yes, this. Madhatterdom is so fucking complicated. Having an RA -- whether it was rebellion or a science experiment or denial or whatever -- is a terrible coping mechanism for betrayal. But the fact that it was a terrible idea doesn't negate its origins; in fact, it's a big clue to where he needs to go to heal himself. He has Class A avoidant tendencies that take him down unhealthy paths. You're right that he'll need to tackle that for either of you to feel secure in your future marriage.

crazyblindsided posted 10/19/2020 13:38 PM

It was maddening for me because I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that he couldn't give me what I gave him. I couldn't separate it, but let me say this, I didn't stand for less either. I wasn't expecting him to match it 100 percent but he needed to come close. Why? Because it is what every BS should receive.

^^^This I wouldn't expect anything less. While you may have to hear about your transgressions too, he has to face what he did and not tie it to yours. Especially since it went on for so long. That is a lot of lying. I also find it troubling that he may use your awareness and success in becoming a reformed WS as his reason for you letting him off the hook. He has to walk the same road you did.

After I ended my A I dove into reading and participating in infidelity forums. Started seeing an IC on my own. I wanted to understand why and what I had become. I did not enjoy what the A made me feel like or the lying. I felt guilt every time I saw my STBX. It weighed heavily on me and when I told my STBX about the A he left me for a week and I dealt with it and gave him the space he needed and answered all his questions leaving no stone unturned. He however did not extend the same truth, empathy or introspection and it is what ended the M. I had nothing to work with.

LifeDestroyer posted 10/19/2020 13:48 PM

I don't see your 3 years as being a waste or pointless. You figured out how to be a healthy you. You gained the tools that you will use to build a healthy relationship either with him or with someone else.

I think we can all relate to our world not feeling real during those moments, whether we were the WS or the BS. One minute you're living in your ok/happy bubble, and then the next you see your world splattered on the ground, but you don't fully know how it happened.

I do hope that he gets into counseling asap. I'm very surprised that he wasn't already in it after your dday. I absolutely hope that it helps him understand what and why he did it and what he wants now.

Just like everyone tells a new BS, take your time. Your whole world is floating around you right now in a bunch of little pieces. Your heart wants to grab them all and glue them back together, but your brain doesn't know how to tell your hand to grab them.

Be kind to yourself Hikingout. While your affair played a part in his decision, it was still his decision to go that route. It wasn't yours for him.

Babette2008 posted 10/19/2020 14:33 PM

I am so very sorry this happened to you. We both started here around the same time, I'm also in my third year since DD, although I am the BS.

You shouldn't blame yourself or your A for your WS having a 1.5 year affair with the woman who works for him.

First, he lied to you for 1.5 years about something that he knew you considered to be wrong and that he knew you considered to be so devastating to your M. If he felt entitled to do that because you had an A, that is messed up thinking. This wasn't a brief "mistake" in the heat of the moment, this was 1.5 years of lies.

Second, he had a LTA with someone who anyone with half a brain could predict would be a problem. She's his employee and she does his books. A person with even a modicum of a sense of self-preservation would realize that has red flags all over it and be able to resist her feminine wiles. And if he truly cared about her and felt that she would make a better life partner than you - divorce was always on the table.

Clearly all wasn't right with him. You absolutely have the right to be angry. You should be angry. Although it is normal (I think) for a BS to not be 100% all-in during the first few years of R, if both of you aren't working towards a more honest relationship, why bother? He was actively sabotaging any chance of an honest relationship and it must feel like three years wasted.

I am really sorry.

RosesandThorns posted 10/19/2020 14:42 PM

One minute you're living in your ok/happy bubble, and then the next you see your world splattered on the ground, but you don't fully know how it happened.
Yep, well stated, LD.

And even if a BS has a feeling something's was "off," (as I did) there is still a sense of "un realness" that steals over you when you realize this is your reality. It's a bit like the moment when you first hear someone close to you has passed away. I saw--and he told me later--my husband experience the same visceral reaction, the moment the truth was out in the open between us. Fifteen years ago and I can still remember clearly that particular physical reaction within myself.

HO, right now, I think you need some emotional distance from your husband to be able to begin to sort this out. You've already been through infidelity from one angle, but this is a totally new animal. Truly. I wouldn't worry right now about whether what you're feeling is right or wrong. It just "is." Write it all down if it keeps your mind from racing and ruminating. There will be time to sort out what parts of what you are thinking and feeling are based in truth (i.e. his issues caused this) and what parts aren't (like that you somehow had this coming).

Eventually, you will probably have to look at your experience as a WS/now BS both in relation to AND separately from his experience as a BS/now WS. I got the sense from reading back over his posts that he "manned up" or gave the appear of such but didn't work on much internally. I suspect he had a sense of entitlement due to being a BS and some buried resentment. (I can say from experience that it's possible to lie to yourself about the resentment, swear that you eviscerated it.) What concerns me for you is that it looks like he began posting as a BS about the time he started his affair. There is a strange, very intentional duplicity that concerns me for your sake. I am just a stranger on the internet, but I still hate to see someone hurt, especially in this way.

I hope/pray you are able to eventually work things out. Regardless of your marriage's fate, though, I know you can heal and I am convinced that none of the hard work you have done on yourself or trying to heal your marriage was a waste. Just please do not rush yourself. Your mind working overtime to try to sort out the "how" and "why" is normal. Don't try to beat your mind into submission...you can't rush the stages you will go through...and consider limiting any suggestions of R to him at this point. Or trying to help him, tempting as that is. There is nothing wrong with extending compassion, but doing it too soon may leave you vulnerable and stunt his potential healing. HE has not been a safe person to YOU for the past year and a half. Please be careful. You are worth protecting.

Owl6118 posted 10/19/2020 15:10 PM

I think the two posts above have hit on some hard, home truths. They are both worth spending some time with and re-reading a few days and even weeks down the road.

At the risk of repeating, there are a couple of points made or implied by Babette2008 and RosesAndThornes that I want to single out, or, perhaps, amplify on.

As a wayward, you know there is no healing where there is not accountability. TurnthePage has some work to do on that front. And, while your experience as a wayward gives you some degree of insight, some ability to put yourself in his shoes, there are things he has to own entirely on his own, things that are the fruit of his own choices.

Say (strictly for the sake of argument, I do not actually believe this AT ALL, but I want to entertain the thought as part of a thought experiment ONLY) your affair tainted the well, that his affair is fruit of the poisoned tree of yours. Again, I don't think this is true AT ALL, but let's entertain this thought for a moment.

That would be is WHY. His HOWs are still his to own.

1. Every employer and every supervisor has a clear duty of care to his direct reports and/or employees. His HOW involved completely abrogating this duty of care.

2. Every business owner has a duty to the business as a whole, those who own it, and those who depend on it. Fucking your bookkeeper is about as irresponsible as it gets. That HOW, and the implicit risk and betrayal to everyone who owns a share of the business or depends on it for livelihood is also 100% on him.

3. There may be a mess of shit and a world of hurt among and between the two of you. OW may be a toxic cesspool of her own. But there is one innocent party in this, OBS. He was known personally and through business ties to Turn the Page, and TTP fucked him over, and visited all the hurt he has experienced on him. There is a code of honor. His breaking of that code and the hurt he chose to deal to that man is also, again 100% on him.

You may have to think and feel a long time before you can accept in the heart that his whys are not partly on you. There may be a part of you the resists this, and even maybe never 100% accepts it. That would be understandable. That acceptance is a heavy lift.

But his HOWs, including the obligations NOT TO YOU that he betrayed by his choices, are absolutely 100% his to own. All I can say is, watch him to see what he does with them. The rules of recovery apply to him just as they did to you: he has to own not just his WHYs, but his own HOWs, and the betrayals he brought into the world by the choices he made.

Sending care, and, also, respect to you. I am so very sorry for this.

MrCleanSlate posted 10/19/2020 15:16 PM

HO,

I know you mentioned you were not after all the sordid details at the moment, but you may want to poke your nose into the business accounts. Your WH may have been funnelling A expenses through there, but also since the AP was his bookkeeper there is a risk that she has account access and information, etc that she could mis-abuse or cause issues with your clients, sales or taxes. (FYI - my AP reported my business to CRA for questionable expenses. Thankfully, whatever affair expenses I billed through my business account I reimbursed through mileage expenses so on the books everything was clean, and yes I did get audited, which was not fun).

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 3:19 PM, October 19th (Monday)]

hikingout posted 10/19/2020 15:39 PM

I can say from experience that it's possible to lie to yourself about the resentment, swear that you eviscerated it

That was my experience as well. I would have told you I was happily married pretty much up until I had the affair. I have to be careful not to project onto him too much with this, but I certainly understand that he did want to be okay. He was acting one way hoping his emotions would catch up.

That's the hardest of all - I talk here from my logical brain. That's why the writing is so cathartic for me. It helps me sort through my thoughts. But my brain and my emotions rarely match. I can logically know something but getting my emotions to line up with what that is is totally impossible.

Again, I won't just let him go through without some serious introspection. His inability to do that is the whole problem, so he has to figure that out for himself. He is at IC right now. I don't try and counsel him, I can't. I can understand him, but I am not looking to lead him on this. I do feel somewhat detached - he has lived in the camper until this weekend. I do not feel safe with him but mostly the crux for me is that I don't believe he knows if he can get past my infidelity or how to even heal from it, and now he has added all this other stuff on top of it that is going to make it so much harder for him to figure out. I thought we were good, how can I go back and think we are good again?

But, I can't turn off how I feel either. I do love him. I do have hopes we can move past this. I am not offering R at this point in those kind of terms. I am telling him that I am willing to wait while he works on himself and figures out what he wants moving forward. I will also consider what I want moving forward. Now for the most ironic thing a WS could say: I can't go from wanting him and our marriage just a week and a half ago to not. But, the difference is I spent three years removing the barriers I had to love and letting my self protection go. It's a mindfuck to now go up the hill the other way on that.

So I know those are all good intentions, but I am just not there. Anger is not an easy emotion for me to allow myself in the first place. I have a feeling I am about to get a crash course in that at some point. I made excuses for anyone who abused me in my life, in many ways this feels like a test.

And, owl, I am touched you came out of lurking to post something.

Some clarification, because I really couldn't put together a lot for everyone over the weekend. This woman and her SO have their own company. They are technically contractors of our company, not employees. They do all our property management stuff. Which is another shitpile to deal with because now we are having to transition everything. Well, he is, I am not doing it. Unfortunately, I think he just decided to ignore the fact she knows some of our financial stuff. Those "ego kibbles" can't come if you don't ignore a boat load of shit. I was the queen of that.

hikingout posted 10/19/2020 15:43 PM

HO,
I know you mentioned you were not after all the sordid details at the moment, but you may want to poke your nose into the business accounts. Your WH may have been funnelling A expenses through there, but also since the AP was his bookkeeper there is a risk that she has account access and information, etc that she could mis-abuse or cause issues with your clients, sales or taxes. (FYI - my AP reported my business to CRA for questionable expenses. Thankfully, whatever affair expenses I billed through my business account I reimbursed through mileage expenses so on the books everything was clean, and yes I did get audited, which was not fun).

Well, I have always done all the QB reconciliation at the end of each month, there were not any expenses there to be concerned with. According to him, he never even bought her a meal. I spent some time on Saturday looking through credit card statements, etc. So far I am not finding anything A related.

There was equipment he bought for her, I was aware of all that though at the time of purchase.

Owl6118 posted 10/19/2020 16:01 PM

And, owl, I am touched you came out of lurking to post something.

I benefitted from our one conversation, Hiking. If I can be of any help to you on any point I am at your service.

Some clarification, because I really couldn't put together a lot for everyone over the weekend. This woman and her SO have their own company. They are technically contractors of our company, not employees. They do all our property management stuff. Which is another shitpile to deal with because now we are having to transition everything. Well, he is, I am not doing it. Unfortunately, I think he just decided to ignore the fact she knows some of our financial stuff. Those "ego kibbles" can't come if you don't ignore a boat load of shit. I was the queen of that.

Correction acknowledged and appreciated. I don't really know that it mitigates points 1 and 2 all that much -- the duty of care and fair dealing may be more attenuated in the case of a business relationship but aspects of it are still there. One might ask our friend AHGuy whether he feels that being an outside contractor meant that AP had no duty of honor, integrity, or fair dealing toward him. The comparison is pretty damn direct.

Point 3 -- well, that stands. In my emotional affair, complicity can be shared between me and my AP. My whys may trace to real issues between me and my wife, which I handled in the worst, most irresponsible way. But my AP's husband is the person I feel the most unalloyed and unresolvable guilt toward. That man was hurting, and depressed, something I know about. Did that give me empathy for him? No. It created weakness that I exploited to sooth my own pain without regard to him and at his expense, whether he ever knows it or not. That is mine to own, 100%. Same for you in relation to your AP's spouse. Same for your husband. Except to you and to me, those spouses were distant figures we had never met, which made them easy enough to compartmentalize in a box. TTP doesn't have that fig leaf.

As I said, this is his stuff to own. But watch and see what he does with it. It will be a real tell of where he's at and where he intends to go.

Absolution posted 10/19/2020 16:05 PM

What I wrote on your husbands first thread 18 months ago:

You know turn the page you have recaptured your wife on a physical level. She yearns to have you on an emotional level as well. Itís whats sheís praying for. For us guys thatís tough duty. Most of that is hard for us to fathom or to express. But hikingout is desperate to fulfill your emotional needs and to feel an emotional connection with you. She mourns for it, prays for it, gets down on her knees and begs for it. You are that important to her. I have no advice other than what I understand from reading hundreds of her posts. Most BS would love to have a woman so in tune. Donít let this blessing fall by the wayside. You guys have a chance for a fantastic marriage and reconciliation. Donít fuck it up.

I'm sorry he didn't follow my advice.

hikingout posted 10/19/2020 16:16 PM

You know turn the page you have recaptured your wife on a physical level. She yearns to have you on an emotional level as well. Itís whats sheís praying for. For us guys thatís tough duty. Most of that is hard for us to fathom or to express. But hikingout is desperate to fulfill your emotional needs and to feel an emotional connection with you. She mourns for it, prays for it, gets down on her knees and begs for it. You are that important to her. I have no advice other than what I understand from reading hundreds of her posts. Most BS would love to have a woman so in tune. Donít let this blessing fall by the wayside. You guys have a chance for a fantastic marriage and reconciliation. Donít fuck it up.

I remember every word of that, though I didn't remember who wrote it. I remember it because I remember it feeling so true to me.

Along the way, I have taken responsibility for some of my tendencies that also contributed to a lack of emotional intimacy in our marriage. As I read your post, it reminded me I probably took all responsibility instead of just my portion. It also reminded me that sometimes when we are unhealthy, the ways that our spouse is unhealthy can fit with ours. We spent decades together sharing about everything but our internal world. We gauged the health of our relationship mostly on our sex life. In the past two years, that changed. Or at least I thought it did.

When one spouse puts themselves together differently, then maybe sometimes the puzzle pieces don't fit together as well as they did before. It's a lot to think about. My H had a lot of KISA tendencies when we met. I remember him "saving me" in a number of situations. He once took me on a date but took me to an optometrist and paid for my appointment and bought me glasses. He was 10 years older than me and I was in my early 20s recently divorced and broke. He actually got an erection while I was trying on glasses. I thought it was sweet at the time? I know, I don't know why either.

Until I read this and started to respond I hadn't even thought about his KISA tendencies, it's been many years since I noticed that any more. At some point I need to find out if that was part of the draw? UGH. I can think of some times that he did help her out with some things.

TX1995 posted 10/19/2020 17:01 PM

I can't go from wanting him and our marriage just a week and a half ago to not. But, the difference is I spent three years removing the barriers I had to love and letting my self protection go. It's a mindfuck to now go up the hill the other way on that.

I know this feeling. It's the same reason, why two years after our original Day and ALL of the tears, work and therapy, I crawled into my husbands arms an hour after he told me the real truth about his affair. It's why I let him sleep in my bed that night and hold me. My brain could NOT put together the man who I had "thought" I had reached a new level of closeness to, was a man who had been gaslighting me about having sex with his AP for that whole amount of time. I totally get the mindfuck.

I've been thinking about you since you posted the other day. No matter what came before your affair, having this level of betrayal messes with how you see everything, and seriously messes with your ability to trust yourself.

I felt like that two years was not only based on lies, but also left us with nowhere to go. He'd already changed behaviors, we'd worked on communication, were killing it sex-life wise. After his truth bomb, I didn't (and don't) know how to recapture the connection that he broke with the lies. They say over and over again that it's not the sex but the lies, and while the sex is massive, the lies are what pound in my head the most. I never knew my H to lie either, at least not to a direct question to my face. But DDay 2 proved otherwise. Huge blow and still hard to wrap my head around.

I don't know if during your work you ever listened to the two-parter on betrayal on The Addicted Mind podcast (it's been okayed to be linked here a few times IIRC - it's with Marnie Breeker). It goes into depth about the levels of destruction that betrayal causes and it was an eye opener for my WH and gave me some insight as well. If you feel up to it, it's worth a listen.

I know the feeling of shock dissociation. It's the trauma talking to you and telling you to step back. Take care of yourself.

RosesandThorns posted 10/19/2020 17:14 PM

HO, it's so normal to have emotions all over the place and that depart from logic. Whatever helps you, do it, whether it's posting here (as long as you're okay with WH potentially reading what you write) or PMing your established SI buds on here. I can totally understand still loving him and wanting to be with him, even after this, and I can understand if you feel like you hate him and still love him at some point. And want to forget all of this and move on together. Or kick him to the curb. Or make him a special pie, a la "The Help."

The problem with emotions--and I know you know this, based on the self reflection apparent in your threads--is that by themselves they're a poor basis for decisions/action, unless tied to truth/reality. The truth/reality discernment takes time. It cannot be rushed. Making decisions based on feelings (pain, insecurity, jealousy, selfishness, anger, euphoria, etc. etc. etc.) is what gets people in the mess of infidelity to begin with, right? (Actually, it gets humans into all sorts of different messes. No one is immune, but I digress.) I hate to see betrayed spouses try to make decisions in dealing with WS while their feelings are still whirling. Or before their spouse has proven he or she is a safe partner again. Ignoring the thoughts/feelings will just come back to bite the BS in the @ss. They have to be felt in order to be dealt with. And so I say...give yourself time and space to sort this mess out. Process away from WH for a while.

And nothing you're feeling is wrong. May or may be based on truth, but doesn't matter right now. I know being a madhatter is different (not from experience, but I believe it)...if anything it seems it only mucks it up more, even if it seems like it makes some things more understandable. You had a head start on analysing your marriage as a WS, but this is a whole different chapter, and your WH has not been on the same one. You have permission to feel, rant, analyse. And most importantly, you have time.

Hopefully the madhatters here will have some good advice.

(edited for stupid grammatical error)

[This message edited by RosesandThorns at 6:07 PM, October 19th (Monday)]

hikingout posted 10/19/2020 17:23 PM

I understand. To be clear, I donít think I have made a decision, not a permanent one. Right now itís give it some time and see what happens. I am not even through the disclosure yet. I feel like I would like to R, but that totally depends on him moving forward whether that will be feasible to even try.

Oldwounds posted 10/19/2020 18:09 PM

Hiking, I think youíre handling all of this as well as possible, based strictly on what you know at this point.

As to the house metaphor ó still plenty of time to decide if you want to go and rebuild it again.

I think every relationship, every single one we have with everyone in our lives is based on connection.If one person or the other is feeling distance ó it strains that connection at best. And I think that disconnect, while real, also adds to the rationalizations we make about the relationship.

I have learned that itís possible to rebuild from almost anything. But it seems itís only when people love themselves enough to be able to offer healthy love to another.

I think your husband didnít confront the pain he was feeling. Logic works great with logical things, but feelings ainít logical.

I had to learn that the hard way. Even the mightiest stoics have feelings.

Not offering excuses for his choice. I simply understand none of my mindfulness worked at all until I felt good about me again.

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