SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So here I am with my tail tucked between my legs. I did not update the last post I had because I was ashamed and embarrassed to still be with this man. At this point, I have reached my breaking point and no longer wish to be a doormat and continue to feel worthless.

The last straw was actually the book "Not Just Friends" that I wanted him to read. I brought it up and gave it to him. I also told him that if he was NOT going to read it, just tell me because I didn’t want to be expecting him to. Well, weeks went by and the book was relegated to the corner of the dresser, then as a holder for some of his items. Was it picked up and read? No.
I brought it up again and told him that I felt like I was not worth his effort. He told me that tbh, he had been 99.9% sure he wasn’t going to read it when I asked him to. Why? Because it wasn’t going to change our relationship at all (aka he wasn’t going to get access to my body). That’s basically what it boiled down to. This crushed me and something inside of me died. I cried so much! He tried to "explain" but all his words just made things even worse. I cried every night after that conversation, but kept trying to be the "wife" he wanted me to be (I know I know, but even with therapy, my self esteem is still shit and it’s hard to stand up for myself).

Subsequent conversations weren’t any better. It went from "I didn’t say that" (that I was not worth his effort), to "Just because I feel like that now doesn’t mean I won’t change my mind, or you won’t change my mind" (to which I told him I shouldn’t have to), to "Well, it wasn’t the book I objected to, it was that I thought we’d closed the book on that subject (his boundaries/or lack thereof) and I was blindsided". You get the picture. During that conversation he told me that me being on this forum and telling people all our business was the same thing as him talking to a coworker about our relationship. I told him it was not the same, but he kept saying it. I just shook my head and said I didn’t even know how we had gotten here because I wanted to talk to him about he was making me feel worthless and I didn’t understand how me using an infidelity website to help me and support me because of something he had done, especially when I didn’t have anyone actually available irl to support me and help me, was the same as spilling all our shit to an opposite sex coworker face to face!

He did say that he shouldn’t have said that and it was crossing the line (which he seems to do a lot, push back and try to hurt me if the conversation isn’t going well for him). But it was too late. I could feel my body start to tense, ready for a world class sobbing event. I tried to hold it back but it only made it worse. I had my second ever panic attack. I couldn’t breathe, my chest and head hurt and it was just awful!

He sprang into action of course and tried to comfort me and get me to slow my breathing. He asked what was the emotion that had brought it on. Anger! Anger at his audacity! I told him that my feelings about his shit boundaries with other women were valid and that I didn’t know why he was saying such stupid shit when I was trying to talk to him about how worthless he was making me feel. He said he was sorry he said the thing about the forums and it was his fault I had my panic attack. (But no apologies about not reading the book and basically saying I was not worth his effort) He said that I was not worthless, to not say that. But that is exactly how he was making me feel…so…

Still, every night, I cried myself to sleep, and still, every day I tried to be the wife he wanted me to be. He told me that he didn’t mean that I was not worth his effort, lots of words, but no action to back it up, because by his actions, and inactions, he has consistently proved that no, I am not worth his effort, and I probably have not been worth it since Panama (check bio for that story). Trying to once again have this conversation, because I was having a hell of a cognitive dissonance going on, he not only doubled down, but tripled down. First I went over everything he had done to me and I was still here, still trying to make the effort to be the wife he wanted, to be better, and to have him tell ME that I was not worth HIS effort was incomprehensible. He then threw back at me "What about all the things you’ve done to me? Why don’t we talk about that? Why is always what I did?" And to be honest, there is probably only one thing I have "DONE" to him that could be comparable to some of the things he’s done to me, but that’s it, everything else I feel is normal marriage stuff.

Anyway, he then said that "To be honest, I’ve been wondering if this relationship is even worth the effort at this point." Or words to that effect. I broke again, because what the actual fuck? And of course, I ended up comforting him and reassuring him that I still loved him and that I was committed to this M. I know, I am a fool! And I still can’t seem to stand up for myself.
A few days ago he downloaded WhatsAp because a game he plays on his phone uses that to message each other. I was upset. I told him that I didn’t know why he didn’t ask me if I would be comfortable with him downloading and using that app, and what things could he do to reassure me that he wouldn’t cross boundaries because after all, these are adults (hopefully) and adults say adult things, have adult conversations, and make adult jokes. He told me that I could see his phone whenever I wanted to, blah blah blah. Of course he still didn’t ask me if I was comfortable with it, in my opinion, he didn’t ask because it didn’t matter what I said, he was going to use the app anyway, even if I said I wasn’t comfortable with it and didn’t want him using it.

Also, as if all of this wasn’t enough. He has not really changed. He will not go to IC anymore and will only go to MC if I ASK. He is in trouble at work because he tried to sneak in his phone! That is not allowed. He was caught, and what did he do after that? He tried to sneak it in again! He had been successful before in sneaking it in, for personal use. To watch videos and play games on it (he works overnight and can be boring). Anyway, he minimized the consequences, thinking it would only be a slap on the wrist. Well, it wasn’t! He is under investigation and may lose his job, worse, he might be arrested because they think he was sneaking in the phone for inmates to use! I told him that he was risking too much by sneaking in his phone, but of course, he didn’t listen, and now look. Ahh, the consequences of my own actions! He jeopardized his livelihood and really the whole family because he wanted to watch Netflix! So, it seems that he has NOT fixed what makes him susceptible to making bad decisions.
As you can see (sorry this was so long), this (not being worth the effort) was the straw that broke this camel’s back! My question is, would I be a monster to continue to "act" like I’m happy in this M while I get my ducks in a row? I fear saying anything because the last time I mentioned D, he went to a dark place and said he had contemplated doing something to get himself arrested and lose all his retirement and disability, plus his current job, which would leave him with nothing, ergo, would leave ME with nothing! Just going nuclear! Am I a bad person?

I know you have tried so hard to make this marriage work, but from what I’ve read, to put it bluntly, your H just sounds like a straight up narcissistic emotional abuser. It seems like he has gaslit you so much that you feel guilty about every emotion you have in reaction to his actions, and he is making you feel like the bad guy every time you try to stand up for yourself, put a boundary in place, or ask him for literally any reparative action on his part…Please, please, PLEASE stop letting him do that!!!

You are NOT the bad person here, and you are not bad for wanting out, or for needing to surprise him with D papers in order to make the process easier on you and your family. He has put you in that position as a result of his own choice to threaten you with childish actions (which he can’t legally do, btw. If he tries anything like that, document it carefully and bring it before the judge; they will protect you.)

My question is, would I be a monster to continue to "act" like I’m happy in this M while I get my ducks in a row? I fear saying anything because the last time I mentioned D, he went to a dark place and said he had contemplated doing something to get himself arrested and lose all his retirement and disability, plus his current job, which would leave him with nothing, ergo, would leave ME with nothing! Just going nuclear! Am I a bad person?

I am a huge advocate for truth and honesty. But that does not mean full transparency with someone who means you harm. Someone who would sabotage his own life just to harm you deserves no consideration. Get your legal matters in order and leave him to his own devices.

My ex at one time called SI my "mistress", it was idiotic beyond words. Don’t listen to the noise. It’s time for you to think of yourself, you are not emotional fuel to be burned by someone else.

I feel like no, I'm not the bad guy, but I worry because I'll be essentially lying. Then again, I think if I emotionally detach so that no matter what he says to me, it won't hurt so much and I CAN be happier. Because I will no longer put as much value in his words.

I hate this! There is SO much to do and I still fear losing my health insurance, but even if I only have 5 years left, I would like them to be happy ones. I just can't see myself living the rest of my life with a man who doesn't think I'm worth his effort! This is what keeps going through my head! I AM worth the effort! I am WORTH so much more than this!

I'm so sorry your M has come to this. You deserve a whole lot better.

Honesty is crucial to R. If you're preparing to split, I think pretense is a good tactic, mayne an essential one.

Remember: you ARE worth the effort.

(((fournlau)))

When I was in college, I took a philosophy 101 class, and one topic we discussed was universal mores— principles that are believed to be similarly held across all cultures. The professor asked us for examples, and someone raised their hand and said "Honesty." The professor then asked, "What if you’re being held at gunpoint by a stranger demanding your address, and your family is at home and vulnerable? Is it okay to lie in that instance?" There wasn’t anyone who said no, and it was agreed that sometimes lying is morally acceptable if it’s done for the protection of yourself or others.

I think you have been threatened and it’s probably in your best interest to protect you and your children by faking a smile (or at least just omitting your plans) for a while, and that is just fine.

Hi, fournlau. I'm so sorry you're in limbo hell. Seems an all too common story on SI. A few of the folks I got to know here, way back in the day, went through the same shit.

I know this will probably seem counter-intuitive, but his unwillingness or inability to own and fix his shit has nothing at all to do with your worth. It's his own arrogance, wherever that stems from, that keeps tripping him up.

You're quite correct, I think, to see many of his choices in his personal life, and those in his professional life, as based upon the same issues.

He has to want to change, you know? There's absolutely nothing you can do. You could be the smartest, most loving, caring, and most beautiful woman in the known Universe and it wouldn't make a difference.

It's not about you.

There's no reason to internalize his issues.

You are trying to escape from an abusive and potentially dangerous relationship. There is no duty to disclose escape plans. Save yourself.

Fournlau- do not apologize to us or have your tail between your legs. I stayed with my WS for a year longer than I should have and only finally left when our house burned down in a wildfire and we were staying at a friend’s house the next week and he didn’t come home one night. Our friends were all "where is WS? Everything okay? "It was so humiliating for me. That was my last straw. So no shame at all- it takes as long as it takes.

And yes, keep up appearances or lie about a cold or cramps or a yeast infection while you get your ducks in a row. PROTECT YOUR SELF AND YOUR FUTURE. And he sounds like a train wreck- get out before he goes off the rails.

Hang in there. You can do this. You deserve better.

What advice would you give your daughter or sister or friend?

You deserve better.

Sounds like he has mastered how to manipulate you. When you react to something he says he backpedals. My wife used to do the same thing and I brought this up at an MC session. I said when you say something and I react badly to it you change your position on what you just said so now I don't know which is the truth, what you said initially or what you're saying now and our MC agreed with me and that gave my wife something to really chew on

Your husband backpedals because you start crying and I know it's hard to control the emotions that surface especially after an affair.

Then he spins it around and you rush to comfort him so he has all the power it seems. Maybe he is correct when he says the relationship isn't worth saving, not because you are not trying, because he does not want to put in the effort. The book is a huge tell. If he truly wanted to fix the relationship he would do cartwheels naked down the street with a bullseye painted on his butt but he will not even read a book

My suggestion is to stop trying to fix this. If you stop trying and start making plans to end the relationship such as a consult with a divorce attorney and he does not change his attitude about saving the relationship then it's just not worth saving

His threat to get fired and lose his pension in whatever else is childish but he's saying it because he knows you believe it and he may very well do that. You cannot control his actions, you can only control what you do so it's in your best interest to stop reacting to his threats

Make an appointment with a divorce attorney and let your husband know that you're going and see what his reaction is

Thank you for validating my feelings and supporting my decision. Unfortunately, it's going to be slow. I've been looking for a job for the last month, and nothing! I may have to resort to minimum wage to at least get something coming in. But even that seems like a difficult task. I do have a BA but that doesn't seem to matter. I am over 50 and have spent most of my adult life as a stay at home wife/mom so have very little experience in the work force.

I'm thinking of trying to publish a book I wrote, but that seems daunting as well! I'm flailing to be honest. And scared. But I guess one foot forward is all I can do.

Today I will be going to the Employment agency to see if they can help at all, maybe get some tips and a list of job openings they have.

The1stWife

What advice would you give your daughter or sister or friend?

It's funny, I had been thinking this myself yesterday. If my daughter came to me and told me that her husband had done those things to her, told her those things, I would have her pack her bags. And yet, here I am letting it happen to me.

Right now WH is on Administrative leave with pay (well, pay when the government opens back up again) and is home all day. So things are very much in limbo. Not sure how it's going to go but I won't make any rash movements yet. I can't believe my life has come to this! This man told me that he was my protector, but he can't even protect me from himself.

Anyway, I want to reiterate that I appreciate so much your support and will take any words of wisdom to get me through this.

You will not be lying by making a plan so you can leave if you feel you want to/must. In all honestly we should all have a plan where we can take care of ourselves in case our spouse/partner is gone instead of doing nothing and being potentially blindsided by their being gone (be it an A or an accident or whatever - nothing in this life is certain). Think of it as an insurance policy or whatever you need to. Getting your ducks in a row is not the same as lying.

And really, there comes a point when you have to look out for yourself. I KNOW this is easier said then done but really - if the only reason you are not telling him is because you are concerned about his reaction then I would take a minute and ask yourself "Why am I putting his feelings and his reactions above my own?" It's hard but ultimately it's worth it.

No, you are not a bad person for protecting yourself while getting your ducks in a row. It's the same as an abused person playing nice until they can run away.

that is exactly how he was making me feel

I want to address this. No one can make anyone else feel any emotion. We allow ourselves to feel what we feel. That means we can change our feelings regardless of what anyone else does or doesn't do.

You are allowing yourself to feel worthless because of the things he has done. You can change that by realizing that his behaviors ultimately aren't about you. They are about him. He is a messed up person regardless of you. It seems he can't see beyond himself. You deserve better.

Bump by request of OP

fournlau

I hope you have gotten

**UPDATE**

I last posted in October and honestly, not much has changed with my status.

I was able to get a job driving a bus for disabled people, but it was too physically demanding for my body and I couldn't keep it. Then, I started driving for a cab company, but, in order to make money you have to work 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Honestly, I really did like doing it, the people you meet is incredible. But, even working that much, I was spending more than I was making in order to keep doing it.

So, here I am, still looking for something. I was even rejected to work in a grocery store Tried to get my Medical Assistant certification updated, but it's been over 10 years and I've been deleted from the database, which means I would have to go through the entire training again. Thinking of just doing phlebotomy ($1500 tuition). But really worried about spending more money and still not being able to get a job. I have so many applications in, I don't even know what all I've applied for at this point. Ugh.

Anyway, WH did lose his job, no surprise there. He's working but making less than half of what he was making before and has no intention of looking elsewhere.

Things that have happened that prove to me that he still has learned NOTHING:

*Risking his job for selfish reasons (bored and wanting to watch Netflix)

*Minimizing the risk and consequences of his actions

*Dismissing my concerns about it

*After both agreeing that we needed to curb spending until we were financially stabilized, I chose not to go to the Renfair which I look forward to every year because we might need the money I had saved up for it for groceries etc, only to have him drop $100 on a video game he wanted not even a week later. When I reminded him that we had BOTH decided not to make those kinds of frivolous purchases, he said it didn't count because the money he used wasn't in our joint account (neither was the money I had saved for the Renfair)

*A Christmas gift from family was $200. He let me know he put it in his work account and $100 was mine to do with what I wanted. I didn't touch it for a few days and when I went to move it over, it was gone! He'd spent it on his phone games! Games that I had told him he had spent $400 on in over a month before. When I confronted him, he blamed me, said that he told me to move it because if I didn't, he was going to spend it. So it was my fault. He tried to make it up to me by spending even more money that we couldn't afford by buying me a gift! Then the love bombing started!

*I once again totaled up what he was spending on his phone games and in less than a month, he had spent $600! When I brought it up, he looked surprised and agreed that we couldn't afford that. His solution? Move money over to his bank account and he would only spend that. (Note: we are barely paying our bills and have enough for groceries and gas. We don't have enough money right now to spend like this)

*He tried to make the issue my reaction to his spending ("don't worry about it" "stop stressing" "it's fine" etc.) and not HIS SPENDING! And again, with the love bombing, kissing me passionately like I'd forget about it once I had a good %($#! (Trust me, I shut that down quick)

*I was feeling petty and texted him that from his latest paycheck we only had $183 left to last us till next payday and that I had moved $100 to his work account to spend so that meant we only had $83 left. When he came home he said that was too much and maybe just $25 a week would work. Well, not even a day later, he'd already spent over $75. When I asked him about it, he just shrugged and said "It was there." When I said that I thought he was only going to keep $25 and move the rest back, he just shrugged again and gave me the little boy in trouble look. I'm so disgusted at this point. Absolutely unattractive!

All of this is selfish behavior and selfish actions/decisions without regard to the consequences. He has pulled the rug out from under me again and now I'm paying the consequences...AGAIN! He hasn't changed and I'm sure at this point he won't. I've tried detaching and being ambivalent about his actions, but it still hurts that he can't seem to get out of his own way and acts like I'm the problem for being the adult! And I'm grieving the loss of my flexibility and availability to my family. My daughter just had her third child and all I can think about is finding a job!

At this point, I do feel like the only adult in this relationship. I don't have a partner. I've spoken to my therapist, told her I'm ready to leave, but need the means to. She suggested I speak to my oldest daughters. I did speak to my second oldest, as she is living close to us. When I started, she nodded and even said "you need a partner". I started to cry, because yes. I forget that kids aren't stupid, they know, they see. She understood because she has witnessed her father be selfish and childish for most of her life. She's seen what it has done to me. She said that when I'm ready, I have a room with her. Thankfully, her husband is amazing and cares for me too.

So, if it gets too bad, even if I don't have financial resources, I do have a place to go. I just don't want to burden my daughter with having to take financial care of me you know?

But, at this point I feel like my financial future is not great, with or without him, so, why stay right? I'm still in limbo, but finding ways to make myself happy within the situation while still maintaining some emotional distance. It's harder than I thought it would be because like I said, it still hurts that he always chooses selfishness over my emotional well being. He always proclaimed to be my provider and my protector. Right now, he's neither.

So, if it gets too bad

I'd hate to see what you would consider "too bad" is, if what's happening right now isn't already bad enough.

I think part of the reason he keeps doing these things is because there aren't serious enough consequences for his actions.

I think, if you have somewhere to go, that you should take that opportunity and get out. He's a drain on you and he's only making you miserable. $600 in a month on video games and phone games when money is tight, then blames you for it? That's ridiculously unbelievable.

I don't mean to sound harsh because I can feel your pain coming through in your posts and I know you're hurting. I really do feel for you, but I think it's long past time that you completely detach and start looking at divorce. He's not only betrayed you with other women, he's also betraying you financially then acting like a child with his hand caught in a cookie jar, knows no real punishment is coming, and thinks he can just "cutesie" his way out of trouble. The fact that he spins it and tries to make you feel like it's your fault that he has no discipline whatsoever make me see red.

he just shrugged again and gave me the little boy in trouble look. I'm so disgusted at this point.

I know this look so well!

fournlau, your daughter is a gem. Consider that her offer of a room isn't you being a burden on her but you allowing her to show love and support you. I'm sure there are things you could do to make her life easier if you were in her home (chores, childcare) that don't involve money. You could continue to look for a job, and remember that once you divorce, your WS will owe you alimony, which is often taken out of his paycheck up front, so you will be 100% in control of your own spending.

My finances have gotten so much better since leaving my WS. I spend 1/3 of what we would spend together, and that's including rent, which is twice what our mortgage cost!

I urge you to do a couple of free consultations with local attorneys. Write down your entire financial picture - his salary, all bank accounts, retirement accounts, property values - and ask them what you are likely to get in a divorce settlement. Yes, you might need a job going forward, but the picture might be a lot less grim than you think, especially if you're a fiscally responsible person (which it sounds like you are).

I'd hate to see what you would consider "too bad" is, if what's happening right now isn't already bad enough.

Pogre
I think my issue is that of the slowly boiling frog. I've lived this for so long it feels normal and not extreme. I've had to "hide" money and "squirrel" it away for most of our Marriage because if it's in the bank and he can see it, he thinks he can spend it all. Right now that includes the savings account. That's his answer to everything, "just move money over". Which is fine if it was being replenished, but right now, it isn't.

The difference is that before, he made enough money that overspending didn't affect our overall well-being financially. Things are different now. I have NOT spent ANYTHING on myself for months now. I buy groceries, get gas, and my only treat has been two bottles of soda for $2 at the grocery store when I shop. I don't even buy myself snacks anymore. I think about what the household needs. My daughter, who still lives with us, takes me out to lunch once in a while, because she knows that I don't treat myself and her father spends like it grows on trees.

Sadly, he even suggested we begin charging her more rent to make up some of the difference! Our bank accounts are connected because we set them up when they were minors, so we have access to her checking account. She wanted to open a new account to move money over so her father wouldn't see how much she has. I suggested she just move it to her savings account because we can't see that one. Ridiculous what lengths we have to go through to keep him from spending so much! He's an adult!

I don't mean to sound harsh because I can feel your pain coming through in your posts and I know you're hurting. I really do feel for you, but I think it's long past time that you completely detach and start looking at divorce. He's not only betrayed you with other women, he's also betraying you financially then acting like a child with his hand caught in a cookie jar, knows no real punishment is coming, and thinks he can just "cutesie" his way out of trouble. The fact that he spins it and tries to make you feel like it's your fault that he has no discipline whatsoever make me see red.

I wish I could disagree with this assessment, but you're spot on. I am horrible at holding him accountable and sticking to it! But now, I'm just tired of cleaning up his financial messes. I do want to get a job before I pull the trigger, just for my own sake. I'm almost 55 and I understand that even if that is more than half my lifetime, I still have many years to go and I don't want to spend them living like this.

My finances have gotten so much better since leaving my WS. I spend 1/3 of what we would spend together, and that's including rent, which is twice what our mortgage cost!

NoThanksForTheMemories
I feel like this would be my reality as well. He was in the military and when he was deployed for 6 mo.s at a time, I was able to save so much money! And it wasn't because the kids and I did nothing, we did a lot. We went out, shopped, ate out, went to the movies etc. But there wasn't this constant drain on the finances!

I have not spoken to a lawyer, but I guess that is a very necessary step. Thank you for the advice. Pulling together all our finances to bring is a great idea.

I wish there was someone I could talk to irl. But at least I have a sounding board on here to show me what I'm too close to see. I'm learning so much still. I really want to be stronger, but I feel like I've lived my life like a doormat for decades, I'm still too scared to get up off the ground. That sounds so pathetic to say out loud.