SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I also spoke to someone present back then who knew us well. She told me she knew what happened, but wouldnt tell me. Moralized that it was a long time ago and that I owed it to Ww to either get it from her or get over it. She blocked me after that.

This is confirmation in everything but name. If nothing happened, there's nothing to not tell you. If there's something for you to get over, it's bad enough that her friend is covering it up because she knows what the consequences of it are.

She hasnt asked me to tone it down or anything, I just sense that she feels put upon and I want it understood that Im not trying to "get even" or whatever when it gets uncomfortable.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Any collaborative strategic planning you have is out the window. You can get recovery advice, but you've pretty much cemented her reticent position now, as there's a social reason (albeit secondary) to stay right where she is and maintain your current state of mind towards her indefinitely, especially since she can monitor it here in real time.

When I demanded details, she said stuff like "I'm afraid I'll lose you." And "I don't want to hurt you any more." My answer to her was:

"You have already lost me. You can't hurt me any more, the sexual betrayal has cut me all the way through. There's nothing left of me to hurt. If you want me back, I have to know everything, or I won't even be able to forgive anything."

And that's it. Now that you know, you have to decide if you'll go your own way or not. You can't fake it, you have to mean it - and be secure in the knowledge that you will be fine with or without her. Don't be vested in a certain outcome.

Or accept the status quo.

Above all, be fair to yourself, and give yourself time to figure out how to navigate these waters. Seems like you've got a good hold on this concept, though. Best of luck.

-M

I dont count H as an AP. I suppose Im only counting people whom I know about secret sexual activity happening behind my back.

I think you've closed your mind, and I think opening it up to more possibilities will be a step towards healing.

I'm not saying the POS was an ap, but it's certainly possible. I think you'll help yourself by being more aware of what you know, what you suspect, what you know is possible, etc.

The last several days have been bad. Ive been struggling between oscillations of grief and anger. Almost all of our conversations have devolved into stalemates or histrionic tantrums. Last night, I had to go. Got into my car, headed to Atlanta. Ive left the house before when we had bad fights, but it was always just to break away, get driving, and show myself that returning is a choice I would choose to make.

I answered Ww’s call on the way. She accused me of doing all of this to punish her. If I love her, why am I doing all of this to her? Accused me of going off to get even, doesnt trust me. I went and visited my mother. I needed a break, needed to see her face, be reassured she loves me. That was enough to get to good and feel like coming home.

Mindjob,

I agree. Its more or less saying alot while saying nothing. Having someone who broke bread with your wife and you tell you they know what happened but arent going to help breaks you a little.

I am up against a long ago decided, dug in position to conceal whatever is possible, admit to whatever is undeniable, and cling to any possible doubt.

Her own coverup is what initially betrayed her in 2014. I was at the bar on her right side. J was sitting next to her on the left. We were socializing, and Ww suddenly got a text on her phone from J with me right there. She looked to see who it was from and didnt open it. Anybody elses text would be opened and read right in front of me. Check engine light.

Got into her phone and there were no texts from J, later, same evening. She was caught, but explained it away. Suspicions never left though.

In 2025, same behavior with the condoms. Fumbled the coverup. Trying to gaslight her way out. S’not working anymore, seen the show too many times.

Sisoon,

Im not as closed as you might think.

Its Schrödingers infidelity over here.

Im just not jumping to conclusions I dont have data for. I know more about J, I know more about P. Considering them APs based on known knowns. Im considering K and B one time partners based on known knowns. Could they be APs? Yeah, its possible. Could there be more APs? Based on what I know, entirely possible.

I dont know what I dont know.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 12:18 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

5blue,

My WW was never going to give me the details of their sexual encounters, which I wanted to know.

So I finally just imagined it, from start to finish, in great detail. From the clothes coming off to the cuddling after. A porn movie starring my wife. And I imagined it as bad as it could possibly be for me. Every insecurity realized. He was bigger, and better. She was very enthusiastic. No protection. Etc., etc. Made me nauseous.

And for me, that was the reality I had to decide if I could live with.

And it worked. I watched the porn movie a few times. But I quickly stopped obsessing about it. It is what it is.

And I stopped wondering "what else" there might be. It was a long movie. Nothing else was possible.

Maybe give it a try. All the men you suspect, imagine it happened. The threesome she wanted with you and H happened with others. Imagine it all. No fun, I know.

And decide if you can live with it, once and for all.

Nothing to lose with this approach. You mustn’t stay where you are.

Best wishes.

[This message edited by Formerpeopleperson at 2:21 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

In 2025, same behavior with the condoms. Fumbled the coverup. Trying to gaslight her way out. S’not working anymore, seen the show too many times.

Good, don’t let it work. Don’t let implausible stories that insult your intelligence and set off your gut become accepted due to crocodile tears.

It’s Schrödingers infidelity over here.

I love me a good quantum mechanics reference here on SI! Even got the dots over the "o"! Are you just trying to say that with these other people that they may or may not be AP’s, you just don’t know yet?

I’m sorry it was such an awful stretch. Keep checking in, you are going to make it.

So I finally just imagined it, from start to finish, in great detail. From the clothes coming off to the cuddling after. A porn movie starring my wife. And I imagined it as bad as it could possibly be for me.

And regarding this, I’m not sure what I would think about it in the best of times. And for where you are at, very much on the roller coaster, I wouldn’t advise such an exercise.

Are you just trying to say that with these other people that they may or may not be AP’s, you just don’t know yet?

Good question. My reading is that in 5blue's mind they are not aps unless he has proof. What do you actually mean, 5bluedrops?

*****

More important, I get the idea that 5blue thinks there's some way to heal without processing his pain.

There isn't. When one finds out one is betrayed, one is inundated with seemingly endless anger, grief, fear, shame, whatever. One can stuff it - try to pretend it hasn't happened - rugsweep, or one can start to process it out of one's body.

The pain only seems endless. It takes a long time to process it - but one has one's feelings. One owns the feelings. The feelings don't own them. It takes work, but the pain can be processed out of one's body, and one has to do that work to heal.

Also, the betrayal trauma usually brings up memories (sometimes unconscious 'memories') of every other trauma one has experienced. Processing feelings is hard work - but the vast majority of us can do it. A good IC can help.

My reco is to start processing your anger, grief, fear, and shame. Once you start, you'll begin to know what you want and what's possible.

At this point you're wallowing in pain, 5bluedrops. You don't and can't yet know whether D or R or something else is the best path to thriving for you.

Focus on your healing.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:21 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

I wonder how often a BS ever really believes less than they suspect.

There are threads on this site and others where the BS doesn’t even trust the polygraph.

What’s the point in forcing the WS to admit to what you suspect? (forcing honesty, maybe?)

Let what you suspect be your reality, and then move on in whatever direction that takes you.

My reco is to start processing your anger, grief, fear, and shame. Once you start, you'll begin to know what you want and what's possible.

At this point you're wallowing in pain, 5bluedrops. You don't and can't yet know whether D or R or something else is the best path to thriving for you.

Agree. The longer you look for the external things from her to heal the more pain you will be in. You need to focus on what you can control, that is where your power is.

Your wife needs to find her courage and empathy, and you need to find your power. Nothing is going to change until you both do this.

Let what you suspect be your reality, and then move on in whatever direction that takes you.

I agree with ink not to go playing crazy mind movies, I fear what would happen if you do this in your state of mind. However what FPP is saying in decide your reality I can agree.

If you believe she slept with those guys, then believe it, process it. The reason I say that is because you know you have been betrayed. You know a lot of crazy shit happened back in the day. It’s a distraction to believe if she was only fingered I can forgive, or if it was this I couldn’t. Stop dealing with the what if’s and dig into what you can control: yourself.

I think what is exacerbated it is the current day events where you do not feel you have the truth about the condoms or the AP’s number. It makes you feel she is the same today as she was back then. So valid. She has a lot of growing to do before you will feel any trust of her. So stop looking for her to help you with that.

So let’s pretend she confessed to all of it. Having sex, hiding the condoms until you were unlikely to realize it (though I think she would have thrown them away), keeping the AP’s number as some sort of back up.

She confessed to it all… now what?

Because deciding to process your feelings has nothing to do with the outcome of your marriage. It’s the outcome of you being able to heal regardless of what she is or isn’t doing.

I think ink would tell you that it took him healing some first before clarity arrived for him. So work on that. The more you focus on her or your marriage the longer you are going to be in this pain. Take your power back and decide about what boundaries might look like.

I feel the two of you are feeding off each other. The angrier and more desolate you become the more fearful she becomes. The more fearful she becomes the less you can trust her.

Go where your power is. I am trying to help her find hers too.

Ws heals ws

Bs heals bs

If that happens they can choose to heal their relationship.

Think of it not as a continuation but a time to draw a line in the sand and determine some healthy boundaries that you both can do this much needed work in.

First comes recovery

Then, if that happens a stable place to grow a new relationship can often present itself.

Right now you are both running is little circles and it’s not going to get either of you where you need to go.

It’s natural to feel the outrage, but finding sanity in which to work is probably going to be more productive at this point.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:28 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

Inkhulk, sisoon,

Essentially I am saying, until I know someone is an affair partner by direct evidence or admission, I wont categorize them that way.

I dont know how many there are. Only Ww might.

For instance, there was a number in Wws phone, in a hidden format just like Js number, and Bs number. Call him D.

I dont know shit about D. D worked in the kitchen in 2015. Ww states he was in her phone, blocked and hidden, because he used to hug her all the time and she gave him a ride home once. Thats all I know about D. Do I suspect D might be an AP? Yes.

But until Ww admits something happened with D, D is a variable. Superposition. Quantum state not locked in by observation. Its a metaphor, like the cat in the box.

Or more like a box of condoms that until inspected is simultaneously carried with intent for use with other men and never intended to be used.

Same with H. I saw him make a pass, I spiked it down. Eat shit, H, Im taking my babe and going home. Did they have priors? Iunno. She says no. Thats all I have to work with. Not enough data. Absence of evidence not evidence of absence, but not proof of guilt either.

Note taken about healing myself. Im trying to process my feelings. The difference between wallowing and processing isnt an easy tightrope at the present. I have to strike a balance between expression and self protection. Its…..problematic.

Hikingout,

Theres not some level of thing she did that I cant forgive. Just cant accept the state of gradually admitting the next thing she denied precisely as it became undeniable.

When I found those condoms this month, it all fell together for me. You see, Ww fights me tooth and nail for me to not use a condom. Its been like that since day one. But she was carrying some around, just in case? 3 condoms, just in case? Pshhh.

Case in point, nightclub incident.

I believe ww got fingered by K and B while J drove. I also believe she and K had sex with J and B and switched partners in the middle. Because 17 days later, Ww was treated for fever, itching, discharge, some kind of infection requiring antibiotics. I wasnt present for treatment or diagnosis. K had a miscarriage at the same time as Ww’s onset of symptoms.

But 5BD, if she was carrying condoms, why would she have gotten an STI?

Because she left her wallet with the friend she was supposed to ride home with. She didnt have them. I took her to pick her things up the next day. The boys didnt bring any. They didnt give a shit. They were animals.

I think she got an STI, knowingly risked exposing me to it, and Im still willing to move past.

But I know you are right, I just have to process what Im pretty sure happened.

Its harder to process the trickle truth and insulting double standards Ive lived under. I can do that too. I just need time.

Know that I believe you deserve the full truth. And I don’t think you can fix your relationship without it.

Mostly the point I was trying to make is she is unlikely to give it under the current paradigm.

Without feeling you have the truth no reconciliation will occur.

However, because if the way she has operated you won’t feel comfortable you know you have it even when you do.

It’s going to take her time to try and see this all differently and in the meantime you are burning yourself out.

Having some level of detachment may be needed so that you can focus on you and she can focus on herself.

Otherwise she is going to keep hurting you, and her chances of ever being believed. Try and focus on working on yourself, I would probably focus on you getting separate therapy from her and stop trying to fix the relationship. Neither of you can fix it until some healing has happened.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:38 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

Can’t quite let this go.

Doesn’t sound like you’re ever going to get the full truth from her (truth that matches what you suspect).

Why? Maybe she’s ashamed, embarrassed. Maybe she doesn’t remember, has blocked it out. Maybe she’s afraid the full truth will drive you away.

Who knows.

But make the fact that you’re not going to get the full truth part of your reality, and go where that takes you.

Stop trying to change the reality that she’s not going to tell you. Stop. It is what it is. Deal with it.

I hear you FPP-

But in his case I do think if he doesn’t get the truth it will end up in divorce.

I think for many bs here they need to know moving forward they are with someone is safe for them. Meaning they won’t cheat again or lie. In this case I don’t think he has assurance of either due to finding AP’s in her phone and recent condom shuffling.

Based on his list I don’t think he is going to let it go over time as it’s been 11 years.

I think he is willing to forgive but wants to know what he is forgiving.

I think he should just put that down for a little while and focus on himself and reevaluate when he is feeling stronger . I don’t think he is ready to say "well that ship has sailed". The resentment will only build from here.

I believe he may need to make peace with he never will never know permanently but I have a feeling that the only way he will accept that is to not be married to her anymore.

I could be wrong, but I have seen that play out here time and time again.

I also do not think she will learn to feel good about herself until she has major perspective shifts and fully restores and maintains her integrity.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:23 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

What he wants to be the truth is that she got fingered a couple of times and that’s it.

What he suspects to be the truth is that lots more happened.

She’s told him the "truth", but he doesn’t believe her because he’s found what he believes is evidence of more.

I think he’s only going to believe what he suspects, even though he doesn’t want to believe it. He says he can live with whatever the truth is, but he’s trying, trying, trying to believe it’s less.

I wonder if he really will live with "more."

Have they done a polygraph? Don’t remember.

They did have one and she passed. No idea what was asked though. I should go back and read more closely he may have said.

I understand your line of thinking. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. I just think he isn’t ready to land in that at this point.

He is in a highly emotional state, sometimes you can’t logic your way out of that state until you have processed some of the high emotions.

I am hoping he will stop the cycle they are currently in because she will not get less fearful while it’s like this, and he won’t get out of the high emotions while she is like this. I just feel they need a ceasefire and time to process things. More detachment, less outcome oriented.

But I do hear and understand what you are saying and I am not really arguing for it against, more just I don’t think they are ready yet.

Reminds me of Thumos back in the day for those who were here. Not sure what happened to him, but his wife wouldn’t even agree to a poly so not sure how to take that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:19 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

Fpp,

Ill get some time to reply a bit more in depth when I get home, frankly just time for this and some copy pasted context.

Hikingout,

Questions were;

1. Have you had sexual intercourse with anyone other than your husband since the relationship began?
2. Have you disclosed the full extent of all physical sexual contact that did occur?
3. Have you omitted anything from your disclosure letter?
4. Is any aspect of your disclosure letter’s account of events untrue?

Disclosure letter was;

I’m sorry I cheated and lied to you for 10 years and caused you so much pain and now you don’t feel safe

I started working as a cart girl in the fall of 2013. I always wanted to be the prettiest, most desirable girl. I would get jealous when other girls got attention. When J gave attention to another girl, I wanted it. 
I let him smack my butt. He asked me if I had a boyfriend. I said yeah but he thinks it’s hot if I get with other guys (another lie/misrepresentation). He would find excuses to touch me that I did not rebuff, such as rubbing my back and shoulders.

In the winter of 2013, Mr. P started buying me drinks. When the weather got warmer in the Spring of 2014, he fingered me multiple times in exchange for money. Sometimes he would pinch me and it hurt. I didn’t like that. I confided in J about him fingering me which I believe caused emotional attachments to form. 

In the Spring of 2014, this progressed to several secret make out/fingering sessions in the cart barn, once in the liquor closet (making out), beer trailer (fingering), and men’s locker room (making out). One time in the cart barn, we were making out and he asked me to pull my shorts down so he could see my butt. I caught a glimpse of us in the mirror and was revolted when I saw how cheap I was. At the end of April 2014, I emailed (counseler) because of my guilty conscience but never followed through. 

When the sports club opened in May of 2014, I asked (boss) if I could work down there with him. He said, no way, what about BH?

On a Tuesday in June 2014 (I believe it was probably the 17th), J and B invited me to go on a boat with them. I asked BH and he said no but I went anyways. We kissed at my car when I arrived. As soon as we got out on the boat, I got scared. I asked them to take me back and they did. I told them that if BH ever found out he would kill them. I knew he wouldn’t really but I was trying to make sure he didn’t find out. 

In what I think was July of 2014, BH and I were at Mr. H’s house and he grabbed me from behind, put his hands on my breasts and abdomen, and kissed my neck. He was staring BH down and I was looking at him as well. This ended when BH took me away. 

J once asked me about going to a hotel and I said no. I didn’t like anything that made me see it for what it was. 

I believe on a Monday probably in the late summer of 2014 (maybe August), he asked me to come see him when he was closing, I went to him and we made out. When he proceeded to go down and kiss me over my shorts, I left. That was starting to feel too far for me. 

On Monday, September 15th, I went to (night club name) with (trusted friend) and (fiance). I did not leave with them like I told BH that I would. I left with J, K, and B. K and B fingered me in the back of J’s car on the way back to their house. When we got there, I went up to use the bathroom. When I came out, the bedroom was dark and that scared me because the light had been on when I went in. I screamed and they kicked me out. K took me back to her house and proceeded to try to fool around with me until BH picked me up.
When BH took me to the club to get my ID the next day, (trusted friend) was very cold and short with me. Very shortly thereafter, I asked J why she was acting like that. He proceeded to tell me he’d told her about us making out before. That infuriated me because I already was afraid she suspected of fooling around after she had come down to the cart barn one day and my face was red because I had just made out with him.

When BH found our text messages, I deleted them and got Snapchat for private communication. J asked me to send him a picture of my breasts and I acquiesced. He sent me a pic of him in his briefs.

One night when BH and I were having sex, he said he thought I didn’t love him any more. This upset me deeply and very shortly thereafter I had a conversation with J about it in his car after a dinner shift. I told him we couldn’t do this any more for that reason. This coincided with when Meme passed away in December of 2014. It further solidified my desire to make sure I ended it because I didn’t want her to look down from Heaven and see me in that light.

I have never had oral or vaginal sex with anyone other than BH since I met him in 2011.

" I have never had oral or vaginal sex with anyone other than BH since I met him in 2011."

Dude!

Believe this, believe this, believe this!

Forget all my previous posts.

Listen, was she engaging in some wild and shitty behavior back then? Yes she was.

Was she carrying around condoms because she was up for even more? Well, maybe. You think so due to your counting, but that question didn’t get asked. But even if she was, it didn’t happen.

But forget about A-Z. Not much, if anything, happened with any of them.

Here are the important questions; the ones I suspect are troubling you:

Did her shitty behavior back then indicate she didn’t love you, care about you then?

Maybe. I’d be worried.

Does her shitty behavior back then, and the way she’s acting now, indicate she doesn’t love you, care about you, now?

Maybe. I’d be worried.

Is her shitty behavior then a cause for concern that she might repeat, now?

I would be concerned.

These questions need to be addressed. Talk to her.

I’ll bet A-Z aren’t a part of the conversation at all.

Best wishes

@Formerpeopleperson post #78:

" I have never had oral or vaginal sex with anyone other than BH since I met him in 2011."

Dude!

Believe this, believe this, believe this!

I actually do NOT think I would believe this, or rather, I DON'T believe this myself, and I DON'T recommend the OP believe this either. I'd need more verification, at least. Beyond a polygraph, even if there was one.

Right now OP's WW is in cover-her-butt mode, even to the point where she may even be trickle-truthing HERSELF. I mean, I am having a tough time following her story, I can imagine how confused the poor OP has to be.

The Reconciliation-Industrial-Complex--or rather I should say, The RUGSWEEPING-Industrial-Complex--is a real thing, it's insidious, it ensnares BHs left and right, and it may have entrapped our poor friend the OP. He has been blamed for WW's affair by his own family (OP is not at fault, his family is WRONG) and is probably has internalized a guilt-trip into staying with WW.

You are young OP, you can pick up the pieces and start over, you know.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:47 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]

You think she beat the lie detector wbfa? What about you blue drops?

Myself, I don’t see how someone so full of fear would be able to control her emotional responses. I am no expert though, I suppose there is always the chance you meet someone pathological on the internet who can fool you. I just don’t think this is one of those times.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:50 PM, Tuesday, March 25th]